Look what happens when customers buy from Elemental Designs

A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
i'm not backing eD here because i have mine doing service as well, but ... i'd say that makes it fair now that they're building your sub.
Remember Mike.... That is what they said. Doesn't mean thay they actually will do it. I mean ....How do I know they are building my sub?

Can anyone answer me that?

Last Monday, I sumbitted the claim with VISA...
 
C

Chris Schempp

Enthusiast
I was pointed to this thread by a mod, and as much as I hate having to do CS between a customer and a company in a public forum, I guess it has to happen here.

#1) The customer was NEVER told that we would not build a subwoofer for him until a claim was filed and a check cut. I was sitting right next to Alex during the conversation. While he was told that we couldn't just ship one to him, he was told that one would be built. About 2 hours later we started a new production run of A7-450's so there's probably an enclosure already back there waiting.

#2) This thing ships freight. Right next to the spot where you sign your name to accept it there is a clause stating something similar to: "Received in Good Condition, Except as Noted." Once there is a signature next to that phrase with no notes about the condition, the customer has accepted the package as is. Honestly, we're lucky a claim is even being honored in this situation as there was no noted damage.

#3) Look at Mike's pictures, these things don't leave here like that. They leave here centered on a pallet with 2~3 layers of cardboard below them, foam edging around all corners, and then usually 2~3 layers more of cardboard before being wrapped in plastic and strapped to the pallets. Mike's weren't strapped because we didn't have the strapping system at the time, but now that we do, they all get strapped as a further preventative measure.

To split the seams all the way around one side of the box would have taken a massive drop...such as off the back of a semi. There's no way we could package something that weighs 200+ pounds to prevent that kind of damage.

#4) We've been receiving, daily, 3~4 e-mails from the customer from at least 2 e-mails addresses. I know a lot of you are suggesting that this is somehow a good way to get things done, but honestly, it isn't. Our system applies ID's to each ticket and to have multiple e-mails which are all slightly different coming from multiple e-mail addresses is an excellent way of confusing people, not getting things done. Having one consistent thread of communication is a much better way of getting quick answers than to try having 4 fragmented conversations.

#5) Threatening a company with a chargeback will pretty much end any other process from happening. Once the credit card company is involved, there is no way for a company to be guaranteed it will be stopped. Honestly, if a chargeback is in the process on something that we are waiting to ship to a customer, you can bet that it won't leave here until we have confirmation that the claim has been dropped with the card company. Shipping two A7-450's for $0 isn't something that we can risk doing.

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but we've been doing everything we can to communicate effectively with this customer. As mentioned above, we're lucky AGS is even allowing a claim to be filed as the package was signed for putting all liability on the customer.

If this was something that was shipped via, say, FedEx and dropped off without a signature a claim could be filed any time within two weeks. But for someone to drive two hours, sign for a pallet in that condition, and take it home means that they have taken all responsibility for anything that happened in transit.

Also, I'd just like to note that any of his postings will have absolutely nothing to do with how this is handled. We aren't a huge company that can go out of it's way to just grease the squeaky wheel and hope it stops. The OP's situation is far less than ideal and if he feels the need to tell everyone how evil we are, so be it. However, we will not treat him any differently than a customer who has an issue and keeps it off the boards dealing directly with us. We will not buy his silence.
 
dorokusai

dorokusai

Full Audioholic
Thanks for taking the time to stop by and post Chris...it's a clearer picture to me personally.

Mark
Polk Audio CS
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
For full disclosure it was me that notified ED of this thread as wanted to here the other side of the story.
 
A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
You know Chris you can paint it as you like to not look bad...The clear thing is... if you are so sure that you made things right. Here just wait for your statements because VISA thinks otherwise...

I was pointed to this thread by a mod, and as much as I hate having to do CS between a customer and a company in a public forum, I guess it has to happen here.

#1) The customer was NEVER told that we would not build a subwoofer for him until a claim was filed and a check cut. I was sitting right next to Alex during the conversation. While he was told that we couldn't just ship one to him, he was told that one would be built. About 2 hours later we started a new production run of A7-450's so there's probably an enclosure already back there waiting.

#2) This thing ships freight. Right next to the spot where you sign your name to accept it there is a clause stating something similar to: "Received in Good Condition, Except as Noted." Once there is a signature next to that phrase with no notes about the condition, the customer has accepted the package as is. Honestly, we're lucky a claim is even being honored in this situation as there was no noted damage.

#3) Look at Mike's pictures, these things don't leave here like that. They leave here centered on a pallet with 2~3 layers of cardboard below them, foam edging around all corners, and then usually 2~3 layers more of cardboard before being wrapped in plastic and strapped to the pallets. Mike's weren't strapped because we didn't have the strapping system at the time, but now that we do, they all get strapped as a further preventative measure.

To split the seams all the way around one side of the box would have taken a massive drop...such as off the back of a semi. There's no way we could package something that weighs 200+ pounds to prevent that kind of damage.

#4) We've been receiving, daily, 3~4 e-mails from the customer from at least 2 e-mails addresses. I know a lot of you are suggesting that this is somehow a good way to get things done, but honestly, it isn't. Our system applies ID's to each ticket and to have multiple e-mails which are all slightly different coming from multiple e-mail addresses is an excellent way of confusing people, not getting things done. Having one consistent thread of communication is a much better way of getting quick answers than to try having 4 fragmented conversations.

#5) Threatening a company with a chargeback will pretty much end any other process from happening. Once the credit card company is involved, there is no way for a company to be guaranteed it will be stopped. Honestly, if a chargeback is in the process on something that we are waiting to ship to a customer, you can bet that it won't leave here until we have confirmation that the claim has been dropped with the card company. Shipping two A7-450's for $0 isn't something that we can risk doing.

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but we've been doing everything we can to communicate effectively with this customer. As mentioned above, we're lucky AGS is even allowing a claim to be filed as the package was signed for putting all liability on the customer.

If this was something that was shipped via, say, FedEx and dropped off without a signature a claim could be filed any time within two weeks. But for someone to drive two hours, sign for a pallet in that condition, and take it home means that they have taken all responsibility for anything that happened in transit.

Also, I'd just like to note that any of his postings will have absolutely nothing to do with how this is handled. We aren't a huge company that can go out of it's way to just grease the squeaky wheel and hope it stops. The OP's situation is far less than ideal and if he feels the need to tell everyone how evil we are, so be it. However, we will not treat him any differently than a customer who has an issue and keeps it off the boards dealing directly with us. We will not buy his silence.
 
C

Chris Schempp

Enthusiast
You know Chris you can paint it as you like to not look bad...The clear thing is... if you are so sure that you made things right. Here just wait for your statements because VISA thinks otherwise...
If you have any questions for Elemental Designs, keep it in e-mails between yourself and the company. You will receive no further public correspondence.

If anyone else has questions about anything that isn't this specific situation between this customer and Elemental Designs, I'd be more than happy to answer them.
 
A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
If you have any questions for Elemental Designs, keep it in e-mails between yourself and the company. You will receive no further public correspondence.

If anyone else has questions about anything that isn't this specific situation between this customer and Elemental Designs, I'd be more than happy to answer them.
I didnt wanted this to go public... I just spent $1,700 two months ago and have nothing that works in my house. I spoke with you first and got the :"We cannot send you a subwoofer until we have the money from the claim company" and then I emailed like 2 or three times to try a better resolution...and then decided to get it public
 
C

Chris Schempp

Enthusiast
For full disclosure it was me that notified ED of this thread as wanted to here the other side of the story.
I thought as much but I don't know who the mods are over here and didn't want to name names incorrectly.
 
M

mjg100

Audioholic Intern
My first comments on the subject:

If this is the quality of eD's packaging for international shipment, even for domestic shipment, they are already a sub-standard company in my book. That's just shabby and poorly considered for such a heavy and expensive product. It just reeks of carelessness.


Further, the damage from what I interpret from the photos is suggestive of a hard drop...a very hard drop. I've done my share of shipping/receiving and forklift driving and it's pretty easy to cause a lot of damage to something without necessarily upsetting the exterior appearance of the packaging. Without unpacking the sub at the airport and testing its operation in the hangar, it would be difficult if not impossible to find this damage on the wrapped skid.

I have to say that I'm leaning heavily towards the OP on this one. From what I can see to interpret, eD's packing efforts are shoddy at best and they should share some responsibility for choosing the disgraceful shipping method. My conclusion so far, barring any new information, is that the OP is getting boned by eD and it's appointed agents acting on their behalf. I would not consider eD a reputable business based upon this incident so far.
I have to call BS on this one. I am a commercial general contractor. We receive freight shipped material constantly. In the photo above you can clearly see the whole end of the box is ripped open and the sub is sticking out. It was foolish of the guy to accept the package in the first place. Second if he did not note it on the manifest then he signed a receipt stating that the package was received in good shape and that is clearly not the case. The OP is asking ED to correct his screw up and the shipping companies screw up. If ED is able to get this corrected then they have gone beyond what their warranty states.

I am sorry if he was/is ignorant of how the laws work, but it is not ED's nor any other company's responsibility to make sure that people know how to accept delivery of packages. Heck all you have to do is read what you are signing. To top it off the responsibility of receiving shipping is listed in ED's warranty. I don't think we are talking about a kid receiving his first package here. OP should have known better and know it is an expensive lesson learned. Sorry that this happened to the OP, but his screw up is what is making it take so long to work out.
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
We all admit the OP should not have signed for the item. It was clearly damaged upon receipt. But then again, when you pick freight up at the airport they may have had him sign for it before they brought it out to his truck.

But none the less, ED should have NEVER shipped an item out of the CONUS packaged like that. The shipping company could easily claim that the item was not properly package and not clearly marked as fragile or sensitive equipment.

There is definitely enough fault to go around for all parties involved.
 
X

xone13

Audiophyte
Ive been following on the sidelines and decided to chime in A7450broken there is a thing called patience. I don't see any purpose in making this thread and continuing to post comments that are not updates. It will not make the progress any faster this is a problem between you, ED, and the shipping company. <br>
Your error was signing for the item when it was so BLATANTLY OBVIOUS it was damaged and then expecting ED to build and ship another sub at their cost right away? I have never dealt with a company with that kind of policy. Furthermore you have complicated the claims process quite a bit by signing for the item and not noting the damage which basically says that the item was ok when you got it. It should be standard policy for the company to submit a claim and wait to receive compensation before they replace the product this would close the case on the shippers end and on the sellers end. But for whatever reason ED is building one before they receive their claim and closing the case so its already pretty good.
 
A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
That was not the original shipping box.packaging,etc...
Who has the fault?
Me? ED? NO.The shipping company does.

Cut this I have the photos and the original packaging materials.

I didnt remove the packaging because in the case of rain the box would have been even more exposed...Remember it is a 2 hour trip by car.Not from San Juan, but from Aguadilla. Since the carrier ED picked refused to deliver it to my house I was unable to completely opening the package it had covering it until I got home.

What if It had been the amp only the damaged thing? Think about that for a second...
 
C

Chris Schempp

Enthusiast
But none the less, ED should have NEVER shipped an item out of the CONUS packaged like that. The shipping company could easily claim that the item was not properly package and not clearly marked as fragile or sensitive equipment.
As noted originally, it left here looking like Mikes, got there looking like that.

We've shipped two to the other side of the world without having an entire side ripping off. It was packaged well enough to arrive without damage. Being repackaged in transit = it doesn't matter how it left here.
 
A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
As noted originally, it left here looking like Mikes, got there looking like that.

We've shipped two to the other side of the world without having an entire side ripping off. It was packaged well enough to arrive without damage. Being repackaged in transit = it doesn't matter how it left here.
I completely agree with that...That is why I dont know why you say it is my fault for signing for it...If the box arrived open, someone opened it while in transit ...no one should have open that. Just me.

The fact of me signing it is irrelevant because it was not the original shipping package...Who did that? There you have the one to blame...

I dont know if Mike C packaging said fragile or do not drop...Mine obviously not.
 
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M

mjg100

Audioholic Intern
We all admit the OP should not have signed for the item. It was clearly damaged upon receipt. But then again, when you pick freight up at the airport they may have had him sign for it before they brought it out to his truck.

But none the less, ED should have NEVER shipped an item out of the CONUS packaged like that. The shipping company could easily claim that the item was not properly package and not clearly marked as fragile or sensitive equipment.

There is definitely enough fault to go around for all parties involved.
I am pretty sure that the package was not shipped from ED like that. The reason that I say that, Ribbit has pictures of his subs packaged up and they looked like they were wrapped up and sealed fairly well. Could they have been packaged better, yes of course they could but at what point do you decide that you have used enough package?
 
M

mjg100

Audioholic Intern
That was not the original shipping box.packaging,etc...
Who has the fault?
Me? ED? NO.The shipping company does.

Cut this I have the photos and the original packaging materials.

I didnt remove the packaging because in the case of rain the box would have been even more exposed...Remember it is a 2 hour trip by car.Not from San Juan, but from Aguadilla. Since the carrier ED picked refused to deliver it to my house I was unable to completely opening the package it had covering it until I got home.

What if It had been the amp only the damaged thing? Think about that for a second...
Did you read what you signed? If the answer is yes, then why did you sign? If the answer is No then why did you sign something with out reading what you were signing. You are placing fault with everybody else and you are trying to portray yourself as innocent and that is not the case.

As to the amp. I would guess that ED would send you a new amp just like they have done with 100's of their other customers.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Perhaps someone wanted to audition that bad boy before they had to give it to you :D
 
A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
Perhaps someone wanted to audition that bad boy before they had to give it to you :D
jajajjaa...You really made me laugh.I must say that things is incredible looking(from the build quality side). I mean It doesnt even turn on...but is the first sub I have that does not have to for me to know it means BUSINESS.

No guys seriously I only want justice here not to blame ED.I just want AGS or CTS to pay ED.
I mean I broke my piggy to buy that!
 
M

mjg100

Audioholic Intern
jajajjaa...You really made me laugh.I must say that things is incredible looking(from the build quality side). I mean It doesnt even turn on...but is the first sub I have that does not have to for me to know it means BUSINESS.

No guys seriously I only want justice here not to blame ED.I just want AGS or CTS to pay ED.
I mean I broke my piggy to buy that!
I am sorry that this happened to you. $1,700 is a lot of money. It really sucks, but by accepting and not noting damage you have really handicapped ED as far as what they can do. Ed can try and get the cost out of the shipping company, but without the proper evidence the shipping company may not pay. That means, either ED has an unhappy customer or ED has to eat the mistake of the shipping company that you helped create.

It is a shame too, because people talk so highly of what the A7-450 can do.
 
A

A7450broken

Enthusiast
I am sorry that this happened to you. $1,700 is a lot of money. It really sucks, but by accepting and not noting damage you have really handicapped ED as far as what they can do. Ed can try and get the cost out of the shipping company, but without the proper evidence the shipping company may not pay. That means, either ED has an unhappy customer or ED has to eat the mistake of the shipping company that you helped create.

It is a shame too, because people talk so highly of what the A7-450 can do.
Go to the AGS webpage people go to Terms and Conditions/COntract page 8.
It explains it there...read and then write....
 

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