Linear Power Supply with audio-grade Caps is any better than similar high-quality caps?

[Pogre]

I told him "Take some lessons- it's not the clubs".

Oh, you mean he didn't thank you and just accept this? What a surprise...

I did a lot of golfing for a few years back in the day when I was on a golf kick. It's a lot of fun for sure, but you nailed it. The clubs are gonna have very little effect on how well you golf. Proper form and proper swing is what you need. I didn't spend a ton on mine.

 

[highfigh]

Oh, you mean he didn't thank you and just accept this? What a surprise...

I did a lot of golfing for a few years back in the day when I was on a golf kick. It's a lot of fun for sure, but you nailed it. The clubs are gonna have very little effect on how well you golf. Proper form and proper swing is what you need. I didn't spend a ton on mine.

Well, I can definitely say he didn't like hearing that comment.

Don't get me wrong- clubs that aren't a good match for the player's swing aren't going to produce good results, but the player can make changes to deal with that. I'm sure I could hit farther with different clubs, but there's a point where distance is exactly what's NOT needed. Long drives can mean that I'll just end up farther in trouble than someone who doesn't get that distance. If I have a choice, I'll go for accuracy every time- if it also goes long AND where I want, that's just good, clean fun. Nothing like driving the green of a short par 4 but if I can't putt, that means nothing. Like the day I shot 85 with 46 putts.

It's OK, you can laugh.

 

[highfigh]

BTW- WRT the original question- audio grade caps need to be in the audio sections, power caps need to be in the power supply because they don't do the same things. Power supply is for filtering & smoothing the rectified supply voltage, audio caps are for coupling (non-polarized) and filtering smaller voltages (polarized).

 

[ersanzop]

What is meant by audio grade? Can he quantify it? Did he send the oscilloscope trace?
How is his DC output "better"? techzpod mobdro download

 

[ryanosaur]

What is meant by audio grade? Can he quantify it? Did he send the oscilloscope trace?
How is his DC output "better"?

At the most basic level, audio capacitors should be made with good conductors and have low inductance or resistance characteristics.
I have never seen anything that shows a measurable "Sound Quality" metric.

 

[highfigh]

yep and the same group insist on 'audiophile' fuses as well !

A long time ago, I was 'having a few' with a couple of guys I had worked with at a stereo store- I was in sales and car audio installation, they had been service techs. I had moved on to a different company and was still doing car audio- I started seeing gold plated fuse & distribution blocks, amplifier terminals and jacks on head units/processors. As the night went on, we started to talk about the BS in specs, speaker wire, etc and I commented that we could make a bundle selling gold plated fuses. We laughed and laughed. Someone started selling them within six months and it hasn't stopped.

 

[highfigh]

To clarify 1 item, an Unregulated Linear Power Supply is indeed the best selection for a power amp.

When we get to ICs in general (DACs, Processors, Pre-amps), then we need to be looking at a regulated power supply instead.

That depends on the devices used and the company/designer's philosophy. If someone wants the amp to deliver the stated output with a varying supply voltage, unregulated is one of the last things they would want because, as can happen in a car audio system , going from idle to a higher speed can act like a volume control. In a house where the power company isn't very good at maintaining the line voltage, brown outs can cause similar problems.

When I was still doing home and car audio, Dynamic Headroom became something that was used by amplifier manufacturers for their ads. Many well-known brands' amplifiers and receivers weren't able to do better than about .5dB-1.5dB Dynamic headroom, which was the ability to provide a clean peak output above the rated power. Most home audio was OK, by a few companies like NAD were better. In car audio, companies like Coustic Audio/MTX and Rockford Fosgate made amplifiers that were very dynamic and needed much larger power cables while PPS and some others did what they stated and that was all. That said, PPS and others did that very well, but it required more specificity in the system design. With the looser amps, the lights would dim and the voltmeter needle would drop when the output was increased, so people started to use 1 Farad stiffening caps and extra batteries.

Best to find a happy medium.

You're right- anything with a processor really, really wants a well-regulated supply.

 

[Eppie]

I installed a few Rockford Fosgate car amps. Very nice gear. Just had a look at their website and they are still in the game. Some pretty interesting Harley-Davidson kits.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is a bit of confusion here. The power supply smoothing caps do affect the quality of an amp and its sound. The actual capacity of the caps in mfd is not the only spec. you have to look at. You must consider the ripple current spec. The lower the better. As ripple increases S/N will downgrade. In addition caps with high ripple current will heat more and fail sooner.

I do not slavishly replace caps in older amps. However if their S/N ratio starts to degrade, then the power supply caps are the first thing I look for and replace. Usually that returns the amp to spec.

 

[slipperybidness]

I installed a few Rockford Fosgate car amps. Very nice gear. Just had a look at their website and they are still in the game. Some pretty interesting Harley-Davidson kits.

I have always been impressed with any RF gear, even though the stuff I owned was "only" the Punch line.

 

[slipperybidness]

There is a bit of confusion here. The power supply smoothing caps do affect the quality of an amp and its sound. The actual capacity of the caps in mfd is not the only spec. you have to look at. You must consider the ripple current spec. The lower the better. As ripple increases S/N will downgrade. In addition caps with high ripple current will heat more and fail sooner.

I do not slavishly replace caps in older amps. However if their S/N ratio starts to degrade, then the power supply caps are the first thing I look for and replace. Usually that returns the amp to spec.

There are other items that are far more detrimental to a power amp s/n than the ripple current. Basically, if the ripple current is problematic, you likely have other/bigger problems going on--like filter caps out of spec, already at the verge of clipping, etc.

When I did some looking into this and taking some rudimentary measurements years ago, I was very surprised to learn that you would need some horrendous ripple current to become audible/problematic.

 

[slipperybidness]

That depends on the devices used and the company/designer's philosophy. If someone wants the amp to deliver the stated output with a varying supply voltage, unregulated is one of the last things they would want because, as can happen in a car audio system , going from idle to a higher speed can act like a volume control. In a house where the power company isn't very good at maintaining the line voltage, brown outs can cause similar problems.

When I was still doing home and car audio, Dynamic Headroom became something that was used by amplifier manufacturers for their ads. Many well-known brands' amplifiers and receivers weren't able to do better than about .5dB-1.5dB Dynamic headroom, which was the ability to provide a clean peak output above the rated power. Most home audio was OK, by a few companies like NAD were better. In car audio, companies like Coustic Audio/MTX and Rockford Fosgate made amplifiers that were very dynamic and needed much larger power cables while PPS and some others did what they stated and that was all. That said, PPS and others did that very well, but it required more specificity in the system design. With the looser amps, the lights would dim and the voltmeter needle would drop when the output was increased, so people started to use 1 Farad stiffening caps and extra batteries.

Best to find a happy medium.

You're right- anything with a processor really, really wants a well-regulated supply.

To revise--classic amp topology such as Class A or A/B is where an unregulated linear power supply is the ideal choice.

Other topologies and supplying power from a DC source can be exceptions.

To clarify, unregulated means that there is no dedicated IC or other discreet circuits specifically designed to hold a constant output voltage.

This is the teachings of the people that literally wrote the books on amplifier design-- Douglas Self, Bob Cordell, G Randy Sloan

 

[TLS Guy]

There are other items that are far more detrimental to a power amp s/n than the ripple current. Basically, if the ripple current is problematic, you likely have other/bigger problems going on--like filter caps out of spec, already at the verge of clipping, etc.

When I did some looking into this and taking some rudimentary measurements years ago, I was very surprised to learn that you would need some horrendous ripple current to become audible/problematic.

We are talking about the power supply caps. If they age badly or are poor grade, you will hear the noise out of your speakers, I can assure you. However in a properly functioning amp with quality smoothing caps, other issues, like resistor noise and solid state junction noise contribute far more to the noise.

 

[fmw]

What is an audio-grade capacitor? One with a lower tolerance for its specs? Sounds like audiophoolery to me. But some people claim to be able to hear power cords so this sort of thing still exists in the high end audio world.

 

[TLS Guy]

What is an audio-grade capacitor? One with a lower tolerance for its specs? Sounds like audiophoolery to me. But some people claim to be able to hear power cords so this sort of thing still exists in the high end audio world.

I have no idea. As far as I am concerned there are good caps, bad caps and everything in between.

The real issue is longevity, and you can not judge that from a spec sheet. In recent years manufacturers come and go, and pretty much all from the Far East, and so cap selection becomes a blind shot at the dart board.