LFE LPF vs Crossover Frequency

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
I don’t think anybody who has commented in this thread is confused at all about it but there may be somebody out there who will come upon the thread while searching online about issues with their own setup. They may have set their own speakers to Large(FullBand) but not activated LFE+Main(DoubleBass) and cannot understand why the sub is not active. It may be a help to them and save a few speakers.:)
I agree. Despite my confusion I still learned more than I knew before participating in this thread.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don’t think anybody who has commented in this thread is confused at all about it but there may be somebody out there who will come upon the thread while searching online about issues with their own setup. They may have set their own speakers to Large(FullBand) but not activated LFE+Main(DoubleBass) and cannot understand why the sub is not active. It may be a help to them and save a few speakers.:)
Agreed, just that such a long thread with such a seemingly simple X vs Y vs Z title may actually confuse more than it clarified.:D
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
I quit following this thread after Eppie and Pogre covered everything, settled, done! What exactly is/are still in question?
Morning! I think it’s all settled?
What I was commenting on was where he was mentioning content being added to the LFE channel, which I believe he meant to say subwoofer channel. As you know the sub channel and lfe “channel” at different things. Just thought for someone a little less anointed that was reading along, the clarification might be useful.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Morning! I think it’s all settled?
What I was commenting on was where he was mentioning content being added to the LFE channel, which I believe he meant to say subwoofer channel. As you know the sub channel and lfe “channel” at different things. Just thought for someone a little less anointed that was reading along, the clarification might be useful.
Right, jokes asie, I was actually thinking this thread can use a summarized conclusion by someone like you, Eppie, or Pogre etc., and then get our mod to lock it for sticky or something.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
Morning! I think it’s all settled?
What I was commenting on was where he was mentioning content being added to the LFE channel, which I believe he meant to say subwoofer channel. As you know the sub channel and lfe “channel” at different things. Just thought for someone a little less anointed that was reading along, the clarification might be useful.
What I meant by that was that there is only one LFE/subwoofer connection. Most AVRs have a single RCA jack for LFE and subwoofer output. The AVR at some point has to mix the subwoofer signal with the LFE signal because it all travels over the same wire. Since the 0.1 in 5.1 is a dedicated LFE channel, I thought it made more sense to say that subwoofer info is mixed with LFE as opposed to the other way around. In the end, it's pretty much the same thing.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
When doing the LFE&Mains thing I believe the set crossover still does some limiting rather than being bypassed....
It does. The crossover acts like a low pass for the sub while the speakers play full range in stereo. LPF does nothing, again, in stereo. You can definitely hear the difference when you switch the crossover setting tho.

Yup, I'm still messing with it, lol. I found that it actually does sound pretty good in my room with my speakers full range, LFE + Mains, and a 60 hz crossover. Whether it's "better" is open for debate, but it's not a huge difference from what I can tell in the time it takes to switch between modes, which is fairly significant for auditory memory.

It does seem thicker with LFE + Mains, but not necessarily in a good way. I might be detecting a little muddiness where the speakers and subs are stepping on each other. Honestly it's hard to tell a really significant difference, which really surprised me. It sounds great with LFE only, speakers small with a 80 hz crossover tho, and I know that's where it measures really well so that's how I'm running it. Next time I bust out the mic I might take a few sweep with LFE + Mains and see what it looks like.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It does. The crossover acts like a low pass for the sub while the speakers play full range in stereo. LPF does nothing, again, in stereo. You can definitely hear the difference when you switch the crossover setting tho.

Yup, I'm still messing with it, lol. I found that it actually does sound pretty good in my room with my speakers full range, LFE + Mains, and a 60 hz crossover. Whether it's "better" is open for debate, but it's not a huge difference from what I can tell in the time it takes to switch between modes, which is fairly significant for auditory memory.

It does seem thicker with LFE + Mains, but not necessarily in a good way. I might be detecting a little muddiness where the speakers and subs are stepping on each other. Honestly it's hard to tell a really significant difference, which really surprised me. It sounds great with LFE only, speakers small with a 80 hz crossover tho, and I know that's where it measures really well so that's how I'm running it. Next time I bust out the mic I might take a few sweep with LFE + Mains and see what it looks like.
Were you playing with music as well as some bass content in some movies too?
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Just a sidebar here: I have two systems, one for stereo pleasure, it's a 2.1 system, which has adjustable low and high pass filters, as well as a sub volume level control. This system gets me subwoofer integration that sounds just right. My other system is for 5.1 music and movie pleasure, no Pre-Pro, just an OPPO-205 Player connected to an analog preamplifier, with bass managed from the OPPO. It is set to low pass at 60 Hz and the speakers set to small follow suit, high passing at 60 Hz. Additionally, the OPPO controls speaker trim and distance settings. The OPPO's sub management is less than ideal since the high pass setting is common to all speakers; yet, this system nevertheless delivers bass that sounds just right. The key to just right in both systems is adjustment of sub volume level via a Sound Pressure Level meter rather than by ear. This is the best means I have found to make subwoofer integration actually come to fruition. Adjusting sub volume by ear on music/movie audio or test tone seems to ALWAYS get exaggerated bass, just awful. Oh, one more thing, the only double bass that's meaningful to me is the double bass violin appearing behind and to the left of Diana Krall's piano in stereo CDs or 5.1 SACDs.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
What I meant by that was that there is only one LFE/subwoofer connection. Most AVRs have a single RCA jack for LFE and subwoofer output. The AVR at some point has to mix the subwoofer signal with the LFE signal because it all travels over the same wire. Since the 0.1 in 5.1 is a dedicated LFE channel, I thought it made more sense to say that subwoofer info is mixed with LFE as opposed to the other way around. In the end, it's pretty much the same thing
Hey Ep, I see what you were saying. It’s entirely possible that I read what you were saying totally wrong. Seemed like maybe to a noob reading along, the description could be misleading or confusing. Anyways, I think we’re all
Going the same direction. We good?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey Ep, I see what you were saying. It’s entirely possible that I read what you were saying totally wrong. Seemed like maybe to a noob reading along, the description could be misleading or confusing. Anyways, I think we’re all
Going the same direction. We good?
Technically speaking you are right, Eppie's wording might have been a touch misleading, though what he actually meant might also have been obvious to some people.:)
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
Hey Ep, I see what you were saying. It’s entirely possible that I read what you were saying totally wrong. Seemed like maybe to a noob reading along, the description could be misleading or confusing. Anyways, I think we’re all
Going the same direction. We good?
Yah, we good. :) Like Peng said, maybe I could have worded it more clearly. I should read it over and see if it needs any edits.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If we can't keep LFE and redirected bass separate, imagine how hard it is for the average consumer....
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
If we can't keep LFE and redirected bass separate, imagine how hard it is for the average consumer....
I think the default on my Denon with sub enabled is LFE, LPF and x-over set to 80, but with the front speakers set to *large*. Average consumer likes more bass anyway. ;)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think the default on my Denon with sub enabled is LFE, LPF and x-over set to 80, but with the front speakers set to *large*. Average consumer likes more bass anyway. ;)
Well, why would I only partly setup bass management? :) Been a while since I reset a Denon to look at default values, tho....and is enabling the sub even a default thing? :) I wouldn't doubt they start the speakers as large until you do something, tho. From the page of the manual posted earlier it does indicate LFE is default, as is 120 on the LPF of LFE, tho....
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Field Marshall
Looks like I'm dusting off a Denon later, thanks guys.:confused: No biggy, the Yamaha wasn't staying online anyway. I just wanted to check out "Extra Bass." No updates, no play. Next!:D
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
Well, why would I only partly setup bass management? :) Been a while since I reset a Denon to look at default values, tho....and is enabling the sub even a default thing? :) I wouldn't doubt they start the speakers as large until you do something, tho. From the page of the manual posted earlier it does indicate LFE is default, as is 120 on the LPF of LFE, tho....
I have an older Denon from 2010 and while the sub does default to on, the default LPF is 80Hz. It makes more sense to have it default to 120Hz, since, as discussed earlier, LFE goes up to 120Hz. The article mentions that sound engineers sometimes roll off the effects starting around 80Hz, but if the effects channel can go as high as 120, why set it lower? I made that mistake and have since changed it to 120 and I'm not surprised that the other manual would default to 120.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have an older Denon from 2010 and while the sub does default to on, the default LPF is 80Hz. It makes more sense to have it default to 120Hz, since, as discussed earlier, LFE goes up to 120Hz. The article mentions that sound engineers sometimes roll off the effects starting around 80Hz, but if the effects channel can go as high as 120, why set it lower? I made that mistake and have since changed it to 120 and I'm not surprised that the other manual would default to 120.
I have two older Denons myself, the 4520 and a 3808 so looked at the manuals and the default on the 4520 is 120, but on the 3808 it's like yours at 80, which I probably noticed a few years ago when I bought it used and set it up, just didn't remember that :) and it's at 120 now. My Onkyo from 2011 also has it at 120, my older Sony doesn't have that adjustment to make at all.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Whoda thunk a LPF for LFE thread would spawn so much discussion? It is not as simply explained as it appears on the surface. Even the wording in most of the manuals is imprecise.

My Marantz defaults to 120 hz for LPF. I don't remember the other default values, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was "Large" for the main speakers.
 

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