Least worst option for connecting existing speakers wireless for rear surround

[everettT]

I will try it but after I finish testing Dirac Live. Only so much bandwidth in the head.

It's good software to become familiar with, but one step at a time.

 

[Linwood]

I'm so confused I had to break out the bourbon. Which hasn't helped.

Yesterday on old firmware I got a curve like this on the surrounds (first). Today with new firmware (and being forced to do a factory reset to get it to work at all, recommended by Crutchfield) I got the 2nd screen shot. I pulled the curtain to the right, it started at about 100hz where you see the dotted line. I have no idea why the massive falloff relative to the low frequencies, and clearly it can't pull it up (or won't try).

With the mention of REW I sort of maybe figured out how to get it to run and got something vaguely similar (3rd). So it's like the AVR is ... well, not sure. The speakers didn't change their innate response.

So I'm very confused, and Wild Turkey hasn't helped so far.

 

[everettT]

I'm so confused I had to break out the bourbon. Which hasn't helped.

Yesterday on old firmware I got a curve like this on the surrounds (first). Today with new firmware (and being forced to do a factory reset to get it to work at all, recommended by Crutchfield) I got the 2nd screen shot. I pulled the curtain to the right, it started at about 100hz where you see the dotted line. I have no idea why the massive falloff relative to the low frequencies, and clearly it can't pull it up (or won't try).

With the mention of REW I sort of maybe figured out how to get it to run and got something vaguely similar (3rd). So it's like the AVR is ... well, not sure. The speakers didn't change their innate response.

So I'm very confused, and Wild Turkey hasn't helped so far.


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I can't go into any detail this evening but you really don't want to mess with frequencies above 400hz. I'll do some digging with Dirac and Onkyo after church in the morning, enjoy the bourbon!

 

[Linwood]

I can't go into any detail this evening but you really don't want to mess with frequencies above 400hz. I'll do some digging with Dirac and Onkyo after church in the morning, enjoy the bourbon!

It's Dirac that seems to insist on it.

Incidentally i ran a wire to one of the surrounds so as to take the RF devices out of the equation and got basically the same curve, so it's not introduced by them.

Bourbon is helping. Making me think to send the AVR back. I wasted a whole darn day from some bug in their firmware today, and now with new firmware am getting this mess.

 

[everettT]

It's Dirac that seems to insist on it.

Incidentally i ran a wire to one of the surrounds so as to take the RF devices out of the equation and got basically the same curve, so it's not introduced by them.

Bourbon is helping. Making me think to send the AVR back. I wasted a whole darn day from some bug in their firmware today, and now with new firmware am getting this mess.

Just enjoy the bourbon for the night, things aren't that bad. Sorry I brought up REW, let's just get you through the initial setup, lol.

 

[Linwood]

I did another experiment and swapped the wires (not going through the RF) on the L and SL speakers, and reran the Dirac Live measurement. The huge base hump shows still in what it reports as the SL, which is in fact the L speaker (the Q11 not Q1). So it's the AVR that's doing it.

Also, looking at the absolute value of those measurements the problem does not appear to be a big bass boost, but a dramatic falloff after about 120hz and up. And it appears on the pre-amp output as well as the actual speaker output. It's something wrong with the AVR and/or its settings.

 

[Linwood]

Just enjoy the bourbon for the night, things aren't that bad. Sorry I brought up REW, let's just get you through the initial setup, lol.

Actually REW is perfectly consistent with Dirac Live, so it confirms it's not some weird Dirac thing.

 

[Linwood]

FWIW I called Crutchfield today. They agree it's a big issue but have no idea how to fix it, they plan to call Onkyo in the morning, but if that doesn't get a quick resolution I told them I think we should switch, maybe to the Denon 3800 (I did a lot of comparison and other than a currently $400 extra price it looks almost identical in features, but with a somewhat better reputation -- well features other than Dirac Live, which I'm now pretty convinced caused this issue in some interaction with the new firmware).

 

[everettT]

FWIW I called Crutchfield today. They agree it's a big issue but have no idea how to fix it, they plan to call Onkyo in the morning, but if that doesn't get a quick resolution I told them I think we should switch, maybe to the Denon 3800 (I did a lot of comparison and other than a currently $400 extra price it looks almost identical in features, but with a somewhat better reputation -- well features other than Dirac Live, which I'm now pretty convinced caused this issue in some interaction with the new firmware).

I think that might be your best move for the future. I haven't had a chance to go through things but their, Onkyo, have had some issues. Some have gotten units and everything has been great, some have not.

If you do return the unit for the Denon, I'd start with Audyssey before purchasing Dirac. The $20 extra app has gotten excellent results when compared directly to Dirac and there are 3rd party automation apps that do a really impressive job of simplifying the work. @PENG can tell you his journey with the two of correction suites.

 

[Linwood]

If you do return the unit for the Denon, I'd start with Audyssey before purchasing Dirac. The $20 extra app has gotten excellent results when compared directly to Dirac and there are 3rd party automation apps that do a really impressive job of simplifying the work. @PENG can tell you his journey with the two of correction suites.

Yeah, I don't know about technology, but as a life-long programming manager, the people who wrote the code would have been fired if they worked for me, if no other reason it just says "low signal to noise" without telling you which speakers, even if one speaker is not producing sound at all, like you forgot to hook it up. Or if you do have to go back to adjust your levels, why does it reset your levels to default each time instead of where you started? Lots of very bad user interface choices. The overall user flow is bad -- maybe the analysis and filters are great, but they should have done better.

And the pointer to REW is interesting, as I can at least see the same result as dirac live's charts.

 

[lovinthehd]

And that is why I have a seamless integrated design.

Well good for you, aren't you special!

 

[PENG]

I will try it but after I finish testing Dirac Live. Only so much bandwidth in the head.

It is excellent for taking all sorts of measurements, as @everettT said, comprehensive.., but it can also do EQ, though far from as automated as Audyssey and Dirac, and yes you would have to really know what you are doing if you want to use it to do RQ/RC. Also, to use it to EQ/RC, you need an AVR that can make use of it, such as one of Yamaha, Denon, Marantz's models (not all models can do it) and if Denon,, Marantz, you need the MultEQ X app too, to use it.

 

[PENG]

FWIW I called Crutchfield today. They agree it's a big issue but have no idea how to fix it, they plan to call Onkyo in the morning, but if that doesn't get a quick resolution I told them I think we should switch, maybe to the Denon 3800 (I did a lot of comparison and other than a currently $400 extra price it looks almost identical in features, but with a somewhat better reputation -- well features other than Dirac Live, which I'm now pretty convinced caused this issue in some interaction with the new firmware).

One thing to double check in the mean time, is to make sure when using Dirac, with something like a Umik-1 mic, use sampling frequency 48 kHz, if you use 192 kHz, you will have high frequency roll off very early, though dropping off beyond just 100 Hz should only happen with subwoofers.

The X3800H is really a value king, but keep in mind you would have to spare another $500-$700 (with bass control), depending on the Black Friday discount that is expected, based on history, it could be as little as 20%, or as much as 33%. They now also have ART working, but you likely can do well enough with just the bass control license. Audyssey MultEQ Editor can also get you great result, but it might take you hours of work to get the flattest/and smooth bass you can get if you are a near perfectionist, otherwise within a few hours should get you something like +/- 3.5 dB between 20 to 150 Hz, then you can add a bass tilt to your taste. That app costs $20.

 

[Linwood]

One thing to double check in the mean time, is to make sure when using Dirac, with something like a Umik-1 mic, use sampling frequency 48 kHz, if you use 192 kHz, you will have high frequency roll off very early, though dropping off beyond just 100 Hz should only happen with subwoofers.

The X3800H is really a value king, but keep in mind you would have to spare another $500-$700 (with bass control), depending on the Black Friday discount that is expected, based on history, it could be as little as 20%, or as much as 33%. They now also have ART working, but you likely can do well enough with just the bass control license. Audyssey MultEQ Editor can also get you great result, but it might take you hours of work to get the flattest/and smooth bass you can get if you are a near perfectionist, otherwise within a few hours should get you something like +/- 3.5 dB between 20 to 150 Hz, then you can add a bass tilt to your taste. That app costs $20.

For the UMIK-1, I don't see a place to adjust sampling rate. I'm running it on a windows 10 laptop, and under sound properties I can't find anything adjustable. Way down under properties the default format is 24 bit 48k Hz but it's not changeable, but sounds like it matches what you suggest.

Honestly I like the RZ50 generally and not all that anxious to change except -- it just doesn't work. Something is "stuck", almost like a weird crossover setting, except those are normal (and I think ignored for the tests).

 

[Linwood]

Just pulled the trigger on the Denon 3800. No progress with Crutchfield and Onkyo and I'm tired of fooling with it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just pulled the trigger on the Denon 3800. No progress with Crutchfield and Onkyo and I'm tired of fooling with it.

There may well be something wrong with it.

When you get your Denon, I suggest you just set levels and delays, and the crossover. I would also try it with the front right and left full range and with no crossover to the mains like LFE + main with crossover at 60 Hz. See how it sounds. Then experiment with Audyssey, and or Dirac. You quite likely will find you don't need either.

I say this, as when I auditioned the KEFs they were run straight with no sub. They sounded very good. Also I do not use any so called room correction on any of my three systems. Previously using them has been a huge downgrade. On my Marantz AV 10, Audyssey made no significant change to my settings, so I turned it off, so as not to complicate matters.

I don't believe these programs are room correction. The reason is that I do not believe that most, if not all rooms are as bad as these programs suggest. In fact I am certain they are not. So, I am advising you to be very wary of these systems.

 

[everettT]

So, I am advising you to be very wary of these systems.

Take this with a grain of salt as Dr. Mark's systems, especially his main, are well engineered. Most users need bass management and will benefit from it after understanding what is being done.

 

[TLS Guy]

Take this with a grain of salt as Dr. Mark's systems, especially his main, are well engineered. Most users need bass management and will benefit from it after understanding what is being done.

I agree about bass management, and I use it, as it is used to capture the LFE signal and the sub channel is sent to the lage drivers in the long lines, but the BSC signal is added to the upper of the two drivers in the bass lines. I am now sending some LFE signal to the rear speakers as they are very capable and have good output below 30 Hz. I do not use Audyssey and have never purchased Dirac.