Klipsch VF-36's and Pioneer VSX-520

[davecochran]

Hello,

My name is Dave and I am new to the forum. First of all I would like to say hello, and I look forward to learning alot on these forums. I know an okay amount, my cup of tea is particularly car audio, where I am a normal competitor and have trophies as well. Car audio lead me to home audio, in which I had a decent set up.

I just went all out and purchased the Kipsch center channel (sorry the model number escapes my mind at this time) and two VF-36's. I have my own subwoofer and plate amp I built myself but I will be building a new box sometime soon. I have a samsung 50" plasma it is the model ending in DXZA (the whole thing escapes my mind as well) but I picked it up brand new at walmart for 280 dollars (yea, you read that right). Brand new.

Anyways, a couple questions. I first saw these speakers on demo at best buy, and they completely blew me away. But i cant seem to get mine to sound like that. I know that it will take time, but I have a couple questions about tweaking. Their sub was not even on, and their same speakers as mine were producing a good amount of bass. Now I know I need to tweak the receiver a bit more, but I am just learning it now. I need to find out how to adjust the bass for the fronts, center, and the subwoofer through my receiver. What are the benefits of bi amping and bi wiring, and do you need a 7.1 receiver to do bi-amping? I only have spots for two fronts on my receiver, so bi wiring is an option, but is it worth it. Also, what are some general tips. Sorry for being a nooby, but I really want to excel at this. Is there a way to amp the fronts solely..off a seperate amplifier that fits a budget? Thanks for all the help!

 

[m_vanmeter]

my guess is the default cross-over setting in the 520 is too high (probably at 80 Hz) to pass much deep bass to your towers. The menu setup is where you need to adjust the settings for the "front 3" speakers and tell the receiver which speakers (like surrounds and subwoofer) you do not have attached.

 

[sholling]

Fortunately those Klipsch require very little power to drive loud and the claimed 80w of the 520 should be plenty. Unfortunately the budget Pioneers really limit (or at least used to) where you set your crossovers. According to your manual things haven't changed much since the last one I set up and your only choices are "large or small" L&R front speakers and then a single crossover point for all of the "small" speakers. That really limits you. If you set them to large then everything intended for the mains goes to the mains even if they can't deal with frequencies below 40hz. Or you can set them to small and use the crossover to limit what is sent to the mains to the low limit of the most limited speaker that you attach - probably the center or surrounds. More advanced receivers like say the Onkyo TX-SR608 allow you to set a crossover point for the mains at say 40hz and then a separate crossover point for the center at whatever it likes, and still another for each pair of surrounds. If you're still within the return window I'd go with a more advanced receiver. If not then I'd set the mains to small and make sure that any other speakers that I attached are rated down to say 80hz and live with that as the crossover.

BTW, just looking at your manual it looks like the crossover on the 520 defaults to 100hz.

 

[davecochran]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I think I turned then down to 40hz last night..I think. But I bought the receiver last and am actually thinking about returning it for a higher one. which kind do you guys suggest under 400-450? It has to be at Best Buy due to the credit card and that amount is the amount I have left to spend.
Bestbuy.com is their website obviously and you can just type in receivers. I thought I knew about receivers but going more in depth I really do not know much.

 

[AJinFLA]

Hi Dave,

Welcome to the forum. Nice find on the plasma @ Wallyworld. Whereabouts are you? Btw, it is best to forget what you know about car audio and start fresh without any preconceived notions.

Anyways, a couple questions. I first saw these speakers on demo at best buy, and they completely blew me away. But i cant seem to get mine to sound like that. I know that it will take time, but I have a couple questions about tweaking. Their sub was not even on, and their same speakers as mine were producing a good amount of bass. Now I know I need to tweak the receiver a bit more, but I am just learning it now. I need to find out how to adjust the bass for the fronts, center, and the subwoofer through my receiver. What are the benefits of bi amping and bi wiring, and do you need a 7.1 receiver to do bi-amping? I only have spots for two fronts on my receiver, so bi wiring is an option, but is it worth it. Also, what are some general tips. Sorry for being a nooby, but I really want to excel at this. Is there a way to amp the fronts solely..off a seperate amplifier that fits a budget? Thanks for all the help!

As mentioned, the default setting on your pioneers internal XO is 100hz. Look at pg 37-39 of the manual, where it explains how to adjust that setting. Either bypass (if possible) or set it to the lowest frequency (my quick look at the manual didn't show the actual frequency choices, but on my ancient VSX817, it was 200, 100, 80 and 50hz). You would want 50hz or lower to experiment. You can always reset it higher if/when you add a sub.
Keep in mind also that what you hear, especially at low frequency with your type speakers, is going to vary between your room and Best Buys, due to the speakers placement/interaction with the room.
The only benefit to "bi-wiring" is if you "bi-amp". It shouldn't be necessary in your scenario. Your speakers are efficient and the Pioneer has enough power to drive them loudly. Pioneer makes terrific (scientifically verified by folks like Dr Earl Geddes using low level linearity testing of his GedLee metrics) amp sections in their receivers.
If you wanted (again, probably no need) to connect a separate amp, you should have bought a model with pre-amp outputs.
Btw, if your equipment specifications are correct, you can attain >116db @ 1m continuous sound pressure and around 119db peaks (1m). Even with dissipation loss of 9db sitting 9' or so away, those are dangerous to your hearing levels. Again, forget the idiocy of car audio "SPL Drag", etc. >150db levels. You won't enjoy any music if you damage you hearing...or go deaf .

Fortunately those Klipsch require very little power to drive loud and the claimed 80w of the 520 should be plenty. Unfortunately the budget Pioneers really limit (or at least used to) where you set your crossovers. According to your manual things haven't changed much since the last one I set up and your only choices are "large or small" L&R front speakers and then a single crossover point for all of the "small" speakers. That really limits you. If you set them to large then everything intended for the mains goes to the mains even if they can't deal with frequencies below 40hz. Or you can set them to small and use the crossover to limit what is sent to the mains to the low limit of the most limited speaker that you attach - probably the center or surrounds. More advanced receivers like say the Onkyo TX-SR608 allow you to set a crossover point for the mains at say 40hz and then a separate crossover point for the center at whatever it likes, and still another for each pair of surrounds. If you're still within the return window I'd go with a more advanced receiver. If not then I'd set the mains to small and make sure that any other speakers that I attached are rated down to say 80hz and live with that as the crossover.

BTW, just looking at your manual it looks like the crossover on the 520 defaults to 100hz.

I've noticed that you recommend Onkyo just about every thread. You should make it your sig - "Buy an Onkyo" .
I generally don't take the time to comment on such sillyness, but it appears your continuing stated issues with Pioneer(s), etc vs Onkyo, is user-incompetence-blame-the-equipment related. My very old Pioneer has XO flexibility and it appears this new one does as well. It helps to be able to understand...not just read...the manual:

1 Select ‘X.OVER’ from the SP SETUP menu.
2 Use (Up/Down Arrow) to choose the frequency cutoff point.

cheers,

AJ

 

[AJinFLA]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I think I turned then down to 40hz last night..I think. But I bought the receiver last and am actually thinking about returning it for a higher one. which kind do you guys suggest under 400-450? It has to be at Best Buy due to the credit card and that amount is the amount I have left to spend.
Bestbuy.com is their website obviously and you can just type in receivers. I thought I knew about receivers but going more in depth I really do not know much.

Ask them for one with pre-amp outputs (maybe Yamaha?) that fits your budget.
Then make an appointment with your Audiologist .

cheers,

AJ

btw, the Klipsch have to obey Hoffmans Iron Law like any passive loudspeaker. Therefore, if the sensitivity is remotely correct, the LF extension for that size cabinet...is not. Good chance BB had some eq tricks going for the sales demo.
Did I mention "sales" demo...

 

[sholling]

I've noticed that you recommend Onkyo just about every thread. You should make it your sig - "Buy an Onkyo" .
I generally don't take the time to comment on such sillyness, but it appears your continuing stated issues with Pioneer(s), etc vs Onkyo, is user-incompetence-blame-the-equipment related. My very old Pioneer has XO flexibility and it appears this new one does as well. It helps to be able to understand...not just read...the manual:

1 Select ‘X.OVER’ from the SP SETUP menu.
2 Use (Up/Down Arrow) to choose the frequency cutoff point.

cheers,

AJ

Gee I'm glad you could figure that out from the manual. Perhaps you could tell us all how to go about setting separate crossover points on the 520 for the mains and the center and the surrounds since that's what I was talking about. I sure didn't see it and it's a feature missing from the two Pioneers that I own. I'm sure you know how since you seem to believe that you know it all and remind us at every opportunity that no other opinion is valid. I don't normally comment on such silliness but enlighten us please. How do you set multiple crossover points with the 520?

 

[AJinFLA]

I just went all out and purchased the Kipsch center channel (sorry the model number escapes my mind at this time) and two VF-36's.
I first saw these speakers on demo at best buy, and they completely blew me away. But i cant seem to get mine to sound like that.

Perhaps you could tell us all how to go about setting separate crossover points on the 520 for the mains and the center and the surrounds

Perhaps you can tell us what that has to do with the OP's issues?
...Oh wait, it doesn't. Never mind.
Hey, I know, maybe he could kneejerk "buy an Onkyo" to solve a problem he doesn't have .
God forbid he has to use a global lower XO (say 50hz) on all channels and get better LF smoothness due to spatial averaging

 

[davecochran]

Before this turns into a big debate....where can I buy an equalizer...and also I am thinking of returning this model pioneer and getting a higher model as it is more power per channel.

I may just need to experiment some more.

 

[AJinFLA]

Before this turns into a big debate....where can I buy an equalizer...and also I am thinking of returning this model pioneer and getting a higher model as it is more power per channel.

The upper models should have on board parametric eq and mics, with auto and manual calibration.
If your current Pioneer does drive them loud enough to win a trophy , you definitely want pre-outs for a separate amp.

 

[sholling]

Perhaps you can tell us what that has to do with the OP's issues?
...Oh wait, it doesn't. Never mind.
Hey, I know, maybe he could kneejerk "buy an Onkyo" to solve a problem he doesn't have .
God forbid he has to use a global lower XO (say 50hz) on all channels and get better LF smoothness due to spatial averaging

So in other words you were wrong and won't admit it so you continue with attacks. I have no further interest in continuing to converse with you.

 

[Seth=L]

Before this turns into a big debate....where can I buy an equalizer...and also I am thinking of returning this model pioneer and getting a higher model as it is more power per channel.

I may just need to experiment some more.

I don't think you need an EQ, and I'm fairly certain Best Buy doesn't use one either to make their speakers sound better in the sound room, just like they don't calibrate most of their TVs to look their best either.

No need to turn everything into a debate.

AJinFLA brings up some valid points, however I do not agree that additional amplification is necessary. As mentioned, by AJinFLA, the Klipsch are incredibly efficient and don't require much power to reach levels of output that would chase you out of the room.

In relation to how speakers do trade offs for efficiency, size, impedance, and extension. The Klipsch VF-36 have fairly deep cabinets, which helps them to compensate for the trade off of efficiency. They are specified to handle 36Hz - 23kHz +/- 3dB.

Sholling has some validity in his statements as well. Many modern receivers allow you to set a crossover point for the center, front left/right, surround left/right, and surround back left/right (7.1 receivers will have surround back). For a 5.1 system that makes 3 crossover points that can be set that will reflect the use with the speakers connected. Since the center channel will not have the same extension as the VF-36 floor speakers you may want different crossover points.

Sholling, Onkyo isn't the best for all applications. While I do agree they typically offer tremendous value, they aren't always perfect for the needs of the user. I'm not saying this is, or is not the case here. For the time being it appears he wants to go to Best Buy, and could have a lot to do with the credit card he's using as well.

Dave, I would suggest setting the fronts to large and see how that sounds to you before returning the receiver. I would also suggest toying with the position they are in the room. Would it be possible for you to give room dimensions, a diagram of the layout, and/or pictures of how you currently have the system setup?

 

[AJinFLA]

actually thinking about returning it for a higher one. which kind do you guys suggest under 400-450? It has to be at Best Buy

The RX-V665 appears have pre-outs (and yes, eq, non-global XO , etc, etc...if needed). It's a "last year" model about to be replaced by the 667. Perhaps you could use your charms and haggling skills to get them to discount the 665 into your price range?
Maybe trade in a trophy?

On a serious note, again, high, sustained SPL is not healthy. Be careful what you wish for...

cheers,

AJ

 

[AJinFLA]

Sholling has some validity in his statements as well.

I agree Seth. It could well be a legitimate issue in some cases, just not the OP's situation. But as I pointed out, it is not necessarily a deal killer, as there are work arounds that can end up sounding just fine.
Where it would be an issue is if you already had tiny surrounds or a gutless center. Neither of which I would recommend, though sometimes necessary.

cheers,

AJ

 

[sholling]

Sholling, Onkyo isn't the best for all applications. While I do agree they typically offer tremendous value, they aren't always perfect for the needs of the user.

No they are not perfect for every situation but they are often a great value and I happen to prefer Audyssey over Yamaha's and Pioneer's competing technologies. However in this case I simply used the 608 to contrast a feature - multiple crossover points. Unfortunately I failed to clear that that information and my opinions first.

 

[davecochran]

The upper models should have on board parametric eq and mics, with auto and manual calibration.
If your current Pioneer does drive them loud enough to win a trophy , you definitely want pre-outs for a separate amp.

I was at 153.4 dbs at 30hz in my van before the fuel pump failed. i think my receiver has a pre out cus I was messing with the controllers and I read pre outs when I was switching through. Is it possible for you to tell me if my model has the eqs and pre outs? mine has audio parametrics but it seems kind of limited.

 

[Seth=L]

I was at 153.4 dbs at 30hz in my van before the fuel pump failed. i think my receiver has a pre out cus I was messing with the controllers and I read pre outs when I was switching through. Is it possible for you to tell me if my model has the eqs and pre outs? mine has audio parametrics but it seems kind of limited.

The preouts on that receiver are for the Surround Back channels only. They will not assist you with your quandary.

 

[davecochran]

I am not into car audio anymore, and when I was I was moving over to the SQ side. I did SPL for a couple years and it was so expensive I gave up.

 

[davecochran]

Also pics to come later..and room dimensions...well the room dimensions are probably 35 feet by 10 feet at the most. but the viewing area is about 10 feet by 12-15 feet. I will post pics in a bit.

Also, what does turning it between large and small do.

 

[Seth=L]

Also pics to come later..and room dimensions...well the room dimensions are probably 35 feet by 10 feet at the most. but the viewing area is about 10 feet by 12-15 feet. I will post pics in a bit.

Also, what does turning it between large and small do.

If you set the speakers to large, the speakers will not have a low pass filter on them. If you set them to small the low pass filter is activated. When I refer to low pass filter, I refer to the receiver's crossover. So if the receiver's x-over is set to 100Hz, and the fronts are set to small, the receiver will begin to roll off the bass frequencies at around 100Hz.

Are your speakers on the long, or short wall? If they are on the short wall, I could understand why your bass is not doing well, and no amount of EQing or power will correct this. Try long wall placement and see how that works if that's not how you currently have it arranged.