klipsch RP series.

[Pogre]

It’s more complicated to be certain, but at the same time, adding a driver to help the sound across the spectrum is useful. Many 2-way designs might push the woofer too far in terms of its upper end performance. If the woofer starts breaking up or beaming, you lose performance. As I understand it, the horn loading of a tweeter allows it to perform lower, which aids the xo to a larger woofer. That’s where the area of speaker design comes in.
Knowing and understanding the balance points between your drivers and how you are implementing them is key. Moreover, the best programs and xo optimizers won’t guarantee that your speaker design will work well.
I’m eager to get the gear I need to build my first kit. Thanks to Dennis, I’ll be able to finish my goal for building my Atmos speakers! Even that kit though will just be a first baby step toward better understanding.

Very cool.

IF I decide I want some new speakers I think I'm gonna go with a kit. HD hit me with a couple of links to some TL speakers that I liked the look of. I'm fascinated by the physics behind them and would love to own a pair.

 

[ryanosaur]

They are awesome! I think there is a kit that Dennis and Paul Kittinger did at Meniscus.

Edit: @Pogre, here is the link:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/er18mtm-ribbon-pair/

 

[shadyJ]

www.crutchfield.com
The sound wave coming off the back of your subwoofer reacts with the air contained in the box. Polyester fiber stuffing slows down sound waves inside the box, making the subwoofer perform as if the box were bigger. Use 1 to 1-1/2 pounds of stuffing per cubic foot of box volume.

https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/56584-effects-of-polyfill-in-a-sealed-enclosure/

I've used it again and again, especially in smaller enclosures. I'm aware how it works.

The process where the enclosure is effectively enlarged by stuffing is called isothermal conversion. Its complicated, but basically the pressure waves from the back of the driver are turned into heat so that the cabinet doesn't see as much pressure internally. It doesn't exactly slow the pressure waves down.

 

[D Murphy]

www.crutchfield.com
The sound wave coming off the back of your subwoofer reacts with the air contained in the box. Polyester fiber stuffing slows down sound waves inside the box, making the subwoofer perform as if the box were bigger. Use 1 to 1-1/2 pounds of stuffing per cubic foot of box volume.

https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/56584-effects-of-polyfill-in-a-sealed-enclosure/

www.crutchfield.com
The sound wave coming off the back of your subwoofer reacts with the air contained in the box. Polyester fiber stuffing slows down sound waves inside the box, making the subwoofer perform as if the box were bigger. Use 1 to 1-1/2 pounds of stuffing per cubic foot of box volume.

https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/56584-effects-of-polyfill-in-a-sealed-enclosure/

I've used it again and again, especially in smaller enclosures. I'm aware how it works.

I've used it again and again, especially in smaller enclosures. I'm aware how it works.

I guess I didn't understand what you mean by "sound bigger." It's a rather confusing term. In any event, the comments you posted don't explain why slowing down the air waves would increase box volume, and there's no agreement about whether that's the root cause of increased apparent volume or just an effect. . Most explanations I've read cite the root cause as thermodynamic, i.e. the air passing through the polyfill causes the fibers to wiggle and some of this action is dissipated as heat, which reduces the air density in the same manner that air in a car tire will expand in the summer. But I've also found comments rebutting this theory, claiming that the fill will only tame peaks in the woofer response and not increase bass extension. I realize that this is off topic and probably of interest only to me, but if there is one universal to be taken from all this it's that engineers are horrible at explaining things in English. Sometimes I'm not sure they have any intuitive fell for what they're trying to explain.

 

[photographer86]

So i’ll this that i didn’t in the last post. I am very open to going to listen. However the dealers in my area don’t carry what i want to listen too. They have paradigm and few other high high end speakers not in my price range. So what i have been doing is buying. Listening at home then selling if i don’t like. Trust would love to have a big box store to which have what i want. There is a best buy magnolia by me but they didn’t want to hook up the rp-600 that were used for surrounds in there demo room to 2 channel stereo for me to listen and they sell them but don’t have them on display in there speaker room. I said really? They said yup can’t move them so i said peace out. Customer service sucked. They lost my sale. So i currently have jbl s center, jbl s26’s for front mains LR and surrounds. They’re pretty nice. Little muddy on the low end. Ive never tried kilpsch so giving those a go with some local deals people are selling there used to upgrade. After this if im not happy with them then i may go with kits of pro drivers. Will see. So about following what is said on forums. I’m not really taking the info that people say oh they sound amazing or such but more less knowing build quality, what went into the speaker for testing and so forth to make a great speaker cause someone could say oh elacs are great! Sure to them but i may not like there sound. Not the persons fault. So yes i will also look into the theater direct website and check though out. Just from what i read klipsch seems to still make worth while speakers. So giving them a try. The jbl’s i have a very nice. Made well and still sound great 14 years later. But like i said a little muddy. I have a problem. I like to buy speakers tale then apart like you do as well. Lol i’m finding though that to have a good speaker from what im learning is sometimes there is much inside. Very simple network. Sure there is more complex and sound better. But its very interesting to say the least. My jbl s26’s have a heck of a cross ove for a 2 way speaker. Couple resistors inductor coil and 3 or for caps. The jbl hls 820’s floor speakwers have a large cap inductoor and one cap and sounds different. But ya interesting whats really inside some of these speakers for sure and how they can all sound different.

 

[Ken32]

I guess I didn't understand what you mean by "sound bigger." It's a rather confusing term. In any event, the comments you posted don't explain why slowing down the air waves would increase box volume, and there's no agreement about whether that's the root cause increased apparent volume or just an effect. . Most explanations I've read cite the root cause as thermodynamic, i.e. the air passing through the polyfill causes the fibers to wiggle and some of this action is dissipated as heat, which reduces the air density in the same manner that air in a car tire will expand in the summer. But I've also found comments rebutting the this theory, claiming that the fill will only tame peaks in the woofer response and not increase bass extension. I realize that this is off topic and probably of interest only to me, but if there is one universal to be taken from all this it's that engineers are horrible at explaining things in English. Sometimes I'm not sure they have any intuitive fell for what they're trying to explain.

I probably should've been a little more clear in my explanation. I'm bad for that sometimes.

Some use it, some don't. Depends on the build. I've seen home subwoofers/speakers with and without it. Some had a pad of it against the amp/crossover, some all over and others have had none inside at all.

The last system I built was for a 2004 jeep grand cherokee loredo, consisted of 2-12's (DB Drive Platinum) subs in a 5 cubic foot ported box (2.5 per side divided) that i built from 3/4 inch MDF with ports that were tuned to 32hz. I didn't feel the need to used fill in that setup. So i didn't. Each sub had a DB Drive 1000 watt amp (class D) wired for 1ohm load per amp and would take your breath with some bass heavy tracks. Sounded tight, clean and incredible.

 

[Pogre]

Customer service sucked.

The way I see it, the best revenge would be to buy them, then return them within 30 days if you don't like them. If they ask why you say, "Well if you would've moved them for me maybe I could have made a better judgement call...".

 

[Ken32]

So i’ll this that i didn’t in the last post. I am very open to going to listen. However the dealers in my area don’t carry what i want to listen too. They have paradigm and few other high high end speakers not in my price range. So what i have been doing is buying. Listening at home then selling if i don’t like. Trust would love to have a big box store to which have what i want. There is a best buy magnolia by me but they didn’t want to hook up the rp-600 that were used for surrounds in there demo room to 2 channel stereo for me to listen and they sell them but don’t have them on display in there speaker room. I said really? They said yup can’t move them so i said peace out. Customer service sucked. They lost my sale. So i currently have jbl s center, jbl s26’s for front mains LR and surrounds. They’re pretty nice. Little muddy on the low end. Ive never tried kilpsch so giving those a go with some local deals people are selling there used to upgrade. After this if im not happy with them then i may go with kits of pro drivers. Will see. So about following what is said on forums. I’m not really taking the info that people say oh they sound amazing or such but more less knowing build quality, what went into the speaker for testing and so forth to make a great speaker cause someone could say oh elacs are great! Sure to them but i may not like there sound. Not the persons fault. So yes i will also look into the theater direct website and check though out. Just from what i read klipsch seems to still make worth while speakers. So giving them a try. The jbl’s i have a very nice. Made well and still sound great 14 years later. But like i said a little muddy. I have a problem. I like to buy speakers tale then apart like you do as well. Lol i’m finding though that to have a good speaker from what im learning is sometimes there is much inside. Very simple network. Sure there is more complex and sound better. But its very interesting to say the least. My jbl s26’s have a heck of a cross ove for a 2 way speaker. Couple resistors inductor coil and 3 or for caps. The jbl hls 820’s floor speakwers have a large cap inductoor and one cap and sounds different. But ya interesting whats really inside some of these speakers for sure and how they can all sound different.

Order from Crutchfield and listen. For stuff under 70 pounds it's 10 bucks to return within 60 days. Anything over that weight and you have to pay return freight.

Amazon does free returns if you "lie" and say the speaker is defective after trying it. I prefer using Crutchfield for that.

Home Theater Direct covers both ways and has good price/performance ratio.

I'll never touch Paradigm again. I've demo'd their 800F towers to which i was underwhelmed severely. Not to mention when I got them home and unboxed them, the front baffle fell off and every driver fell out of the cabinet and onto my floor (except the tweeter). The other speaker had glue all over the finish. How it passed inspection, I'll never know. Guess it's that "Hand crafted in Canada" they advertise. When I used some screws i had and put it back together, disappointment set in rather quickly. When i phoned them about the defective units, they acted like it was my fault. Like I built the speaker!

I've demo'd their wicked expensive persona series and didn't feel any WOW factor at all. I like some DEF TECH stuff, but Sandy's new designs with his Goldenear stuff had me scratching my head too. Especially at 3k per speaker. I've heard much cheaper speakers sound much better. I think at that point it's just bragging rights. Hey, guys, look what i got!

 

[KEW]

I guess I didn't understand what you mean by "sound bigger." It's a rather confusing term. In any event, the comments you posted don't explain why slowing down the air waves would increase box volume, and there's no agreement about whether that's the root cause increased apparent volume or just an effect. . Most explanations I've read cite the root cause as thermodynamic, i.e. the air passing through the polyfill causes the fibers to wiggle and some of this action is dissipated as heat, which reduces the air density in the same manner that air in a car tire will expand in the summer. But I've also found comments rebutting this theory, claiming that the fill will only tame peaks in the woofer response and not increase bass extension. I realize that this is off topic and probably of interest only to me, but if there is one universal to be taken from all this it's that engineers are horrible at explaining things in English. Sometimes I'm not sure they have any intuitive fell for what they're trying to explain.

To make a simple statement, I would just say that "the polyfill absorbs energy and reduces internal reflections from interfering with reproduction of the signal the driver is receiving!"

 

[KEW]

Amazon does free returns if you "lie" and say the speaker is defective after trying it. I prefer using Crutchfield for that.

You don't have to lie, IME!
I usually select "inaccurate website description".
It is easy enough to find something BS in the ad copy which you can easily dispute.
For example, the ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 description declares:
"The delicacy of a 1-inch soft-dome tweeter and the harmonic accuracy of a rigid aluminum 4-inch midrange cone come together in a symphony of sonic perfection. "
Here I would say it did not provide "sonic perfection" (it didn't, of course). Elac might like to press the issue before a return, but Amazon isn't going to get into that kind of debate, they just refund the money and sell it as an open item return (I assume).
I would not feel good saying it is defective as that will cost them the trouble of processing it as a defect. Maybe you help someone into cheaper, refurb'ed speakers, but I'd rather keep it honest!

 

[snakeeyes]

Order from Crutchfield and listen. For stuff under 70 pounds it's 10 bucks to return within 60 days. Anything over that weight and you have to pay return freight.

Amazon does free returns if you "lie" and say the speaker is defective after trying it. I prefer using Crutchfield for that.

Home Theater Direct covers both ways and has good price/performance ratio.

I'll never touch Paradigm again. I've demo'd their 800F towers to which i was underwhelmed severely. Not to mention when I got them home and unboxed them, the front baffle fell off and every driver fell out of the cabinet and onto my floor (except the tweeter). The other speaker had glue all over the finish. How it passed inspection, I'll never know. Guess it's that "Hand crafted in Canada" they advertise. When I used some screws i had and put it back together, disappointment set in rather quickly. When i phoned them about the defective units, they acted like it was my fault. Like I built the speaker!

I've demo'd their wicked expensive persona series and didn't feel any WOW factor at all. I like some DEF TECH stuff, but Sandy's new designs with his Goldenear stuff had me scratching my head too. Especially at 3k per speaker. I've heard much cheaper speakers sound much better. I think at that point it's just bragging rights. Hey, guys, look what i got!

So what outfit did you buy the 800F from (and return)?

 

[Ken32]

So what outfit did you buy the 800F from (and return)?

Barney Miller in Lexington Kentucky. About 2.5 hours away from me.

Same place i purchased my B&W heavily discounted because of the multiple trips and trouble with paradigm.

 

[Ken32]

You don't have to lie, IME!
I usually select "inaccurate website description".
It is easy enough to find something BS in the ad copy which you can easily dispute.
For example, the ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 description declares:
"The delicacy of a 1-inch soft-dome tweeter and the harmonic accuracy of a rigid aluminum 4-inch midrange cone come together in a symphony of sonic perfection. "
Here I would say it did not provide "sonic perfection" (it didn't, of course). Elac might like to press the issue before a return, but Amazon isn't going to get into that kind of debate, they just refund the money and sell it as an open item return (I assume).
I would not feel good saying it is defective as that will cost them the trouble of processing it as a defect. Maybe you help someone into cheaper, refurb'ed speakers, but I'd rather keep it honest!

I agree not to lie. That’s why i said i prefer Crutchfield. I can simply say i don’t like them. No questions asked and try another set.

 

[D Murphy]

To make a simple statement, I would just say that "the polyfill absorbs energy and reduces internal reflections from interfering with reproduction of the signal the driver is receiving!"

That's a perfectly good description of why it's often used in ported speakers (in moderation so as not to obstruct air flow to the port) and partly why its used in much greater quantity in sealed cabinets. But it doesn't get at the mechanism by which the apparent size of the cabinet volume increases when a sealed cabinet is filled with poly.

 

[KEW]

I agree not to lie. That’s why i said i prefer Crutchfield. I can simply say i don’t like them. No questions asked and try another set.

I'm just trying to remove that barrier for you (and anyone else who is thinking they have to lie to do a return with Amazon).
You can use Amazon (who has a different selection) as readily as Crutchfield without being dishonest. No questions asked.

 

[snakeeyes]

You don't have to lie, IME!
I usually select "inaccurate website description".
It is easy enough to find something BS in the ad copy which you can easily dispute.
For example, the ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 description declares:
"The delicacy of a 1-inch soft-dome tweeter and the harmonic accuracy of a rigid aluminum 4-inch midrange cone come together in a symphony of sonic perfection. "
Here I would say it did not provide "sonic perfection" (it didn't, of course). Elac might like to press the issue before a return, but Amazon isn't going to get into that kind of debate, they just refund the money and sell it as an open item return (I assume).
I would not feel good saying it is defective as that will cost them the trouble of processing it as a defect. Maybe you help someone into cheaper, refurb'ed speakers, but I'd rather keep it honest!

So not quite “sonic perfection”? LOL

 

[KEW]

That's a perfectly good description of why it's often used in ported speakers (in moderation so as not to obstruct air flow to the port) and partly why its used in much greater quantity in sealed cabinets. But it doesn't get at the mechanism by which the apparent size of the cabinet volume increases when a sealed cabinet is filled with poly.

I'm not sure what indications you get that relate to the apparent size increase, but I would offer a simple analogy:
A anechoic chamber is walled with absorbent (and diffracting) material to eliminate reflected sound energy.
If we don't have a chamber, we can approximate it (with some limitations) by placing the speaker in the middle of an open field (ideally, on a very tall pole). So, here again we have a situation where adding sound absorptive material or "increasing the size of the enclosure" both have similar effect. I don't think there is any thermodynamic involvement in a chamber or field, and am a little skeptical that there would be enough heat generation from fiberfill inside a speaker to make such a detectable difference in the properties of the air.
Obviously, the dampening quality of the fiberfill would reduce resonances (by taking energy out of the wave before it reaches the walls).
This next statement is more personal intuition than factual knowledge, but I would speculate the reflection to still be as fast, but to be much, much weaker. If the apparent size increase is evaluated via how strong the reflection is that would be consistent with my conceptual model. If it is evaluated via how quickly the reflection arrives, then my conceptual model needs work ... it won't be the first (or last) time ... but that is how we learn and improve!

 

[Ken32]

You don't have to lie, IME!
I usually select "inaccurate website description".
It is easy enough to find something BS in the ad copy which you can easily dispute.
For example, the ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 description declares:
"The delicacy of a 1-inch soft-dome tweeter and the harmonic accuracy of a rigid aluminum 4-inch midrange cone come together in a symphony of sonic perfection. "
Here I would say it did not provide "sonic perfection" (it didn't, of course). Elac might like to press the issue before a return, but Amazon isn't going to get into that kind of debate, they just refund the money and sell it as an open item return (I assume).
I would not feel good saying it is defective as that will cost them the trouble of processing it as a defect. Maybe you help someone into cheaper, refurb'ed speakers, but I'd rather keep it honest!

Problem is if i liked a speaker and selected inaccurate description and said this or that just to return it to try others.... It’d still be lying. Either way you look at it. I’ve personally not had to lie to return stuff to amazon.

However; on this site i have seen the same comments from other users “lie to amazon” i didn’t and don’t recommend lying.

I’d rather pay Crutchfield 10 bucks and just tell them straight out that i don’t like them or i do but wish to try others. Just easier for me that way.

 

[photographer86]

Picked up a pair of klipsch rp-160m tonight from a person on facebook market place. They were only used a few hours and the people said they were to loud for them. Selling for $250. I have brought them home. Excellent shape. Maybe 20 hours on them. Got them wired up to marantz sr5012 and they sound very live to me with playing some DSD 5.6mhz files of Jazz. I think on some recordings, it's the recording that makes the music bright! As I am playing all sorts of other music tonight from Moby to Jane Monheit, BB King, and some Enigma to Joe Satriani i am impressed. I think it was the sound I was looking for live and accurate to a instrument. The bass is not muddy to me like the JBL s26's. I have herd symbols in a few songs I didn't hear playing softly as was intended by the artist. The highs are bright. But I say on good recordings? Which what is a good recording as we know can different it seems to be where I think of feel should be for highs. I am enjoying them very much so far.

Thanks everyone for the input on some sites to order and try things. I like the deals we find online but do miss audio stores to walk into and listen and have that experience in a audio store. Turn dials, play with knobs, this world we live into today has changed. I think I would like to build some pro driver kits and compare those now. so far to me each speaker I has tried has raised the bar in cleaner and tightness of bass so will continue with exploring in this awesome audio hobby. Thank again all!

 

[Ken32]

Picked up a pair of klipsch rp-160m tonight from a person on facebook market place. They were only used a few hours and the people said they were to loud for them. Selling for $250. I have brought them home. Excellent shape. Maybe 20 hours on them. Got them wired up to marantz sr5012 and they sound very live to me with playing some DSD 5.6mhz files of Jazz. I think on some recordings, it's the recording that makes the music bright! As I am playing all sorts of other music tonight from Moby to Jane Monheit, BB King, and some Enigma to Joe Satriani i am impressed. I think it was the sound I was looking for live and accurate to a instrument. The bass is not muddy to me like the JBL s26's. I have herd symbols in a few songs I didn't hear playing softly as was intended by the artist. The highs are bright. But I say on good recordings? Which what is a good recording as we know can different it seems to be where I think of feel should be for highs. I am enjoying them very much so far.

Thanks everyone for the input on some sites to order and try things. I like the deals we find online but do miss audio stores to walk into and listen and have that experience in a audio store. Turn dials, play with knobs, this world we live into today has changed. I think I would like to build some pro driver kits and compare those now. so far to me each speaker I has tried has raised the bar in cleaner and tightness of bass so will continue with exploring in this awesome audio hobby. Thank again all!

Congrats! Glad you like them. At the end of the day that's all that matters. You'll eventually get another itch to upgrade. We all do at some point.

No matter the speaker or cost, it's always itching me even though I'm completely satisfied with Bowers & Wilkins. I always have that little voice in my head that says "What if those sound better." "You must try these.' lol.

I've been through a dozen different speakers and I'm for sure I'll be through a dozen more just because.