KEF Q Series or ELAC Debut 2.0 ???

[PENG]

The sitting distance is 9' but the room is obviously larger than that. Should I figure it to the back wall instead?

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According to S&V's bench test, the AVR-X3400H could output 123 W into 4 ohm at 0.1% THD+N.
So it is better if you enter the following:

Amplifier power: 123 W
Sensitivity: 85 dB/1W/1m instead of the specified 88 dB/2.83V/1m that is optimistic because the average impedance of the Q750 is very likely well below 8 ohm.
No. of speakers: 1

Using the above numbers instead you will end up with 100 dB SPL at listening position. This is a more conservative approach. In reality, you will likely be able to reach the 105 peak that THX standard calls for most of the time because:

- at 123 W average output, the peak output will be 246 W.
- For most 5.1 sound tracks (excluding the LFE channel), when the 105 dB peaks show up, you are going to have more than 1 speaker contributing, so it is not unreasonable to assume at least two speakers will be contributing to the 105 dB spl more or less equally.

So it does look like you will be marginally fine without an amp, and if you are like a lot of us, you will not be watching movies at reference level. If you listen at say 10 dB below reference, you then have another 10 dB extra headroom . Still, it is a good idea to add an external cooling fan to keep the AVR cool.

When you are ready to consider adding an external amplifier, keep in mind you need double the power to gain only 3 dB more SPL.

 

[KenM10759]

Peng, what leads you to believe the KEF Q550 would be that much less sensitive than what KEF says? I know with many makers it can be true, but in most I've read, KEF is rarely off by more than 1.5dB.

 

[KenM10759]

The ARC I was referring to was the HDMI connection, not the Audyssey calibrator.

I did get them from Accessories4less.

I called them and they never picked up nor returned my phone call. I was pretty upset. I looked them up and read a bunch of mixed reviews. A lot of negative ones. Mostly on receivers though, none on the KEF refurbs.

I went back to the KEF website, and Accessries4less is the only authorized online refurb dealer.

I sent Accessories4less an email. A guy named Mark messaged me back in about 40 mins. We messaged back and forth for awhile, he assured me that everything would be fine and that if I placed my order it would ship right away. He also said that most of their business is online so they spend more resources on the net, than they do with the phones. He said it takes days before they get through all the voicemails. Makes sense. Anyways I ordered the Center channel because it was the last one. It shipped that day. After seeing that I places the order for the towers. Again, shipped the same day.

I couldn't believe the condition of the center channel, I mean it looks brand new, and as you said, felt wrapped, then foam, then high density foam in all corners, KEF branded packaging tape and box, right from the factory. Pretty amazing.

I asked you about what type of cables to get, you never answered my question, do i hit some other forums and more people recommended the spades than the bananas. The ones I bought are soldered, so they shouldn't come loose, but we will see. I figured with the screw actually biting into them it would be a better connection.

Either way, not a lot of money spent. We'll see how they work out.

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Sorry about the ARC confusion. That and CEC always confuse me, and it seems for a lot of equipment it confuses the manufacturers too. Sometimes it works fabulously, other times not so much.

You heard from Mark Sabbarese. one of the owners and a real stand-up guy. He does care and is always doing what he can to make the Accessories4Less.com buying experience better.

As for cables, sorry I overlooked your question. It's a can-of-worms subject. I make my own cables out of Monoprice CL-2 jacketed 12 gauge, and it's overkill on size for less than 8ft runs. It's even that for my surrounds at the other end of the 19ft long room. I use locking banana plugs from Blue Jeans Cable. They offer completed custom cables for fair prices too.

 

[EvolDevol]

Sorry about the ARC confusion. That and CEC always confuse me, and it seems for a lot of equipment it confuses the manufacturers too. Sometimes it works fabulously, other times not so much.

You heard from Mark Sabbarese. one of the owners and a real stand-up guy. He does care and is always doing what he can to make the Accessories4Less.com buying experience better.

As for cables, sorry I overlooked your question. It's a can-of-worms subject. I make my own cables out of Monoprice CL-2 jacketed 12 gauge, and it's overkill on size for less than 8ft runs. It's even that for my surrounds at the other end of the 19ft long room. I use locking banana plugs from Blue Jeans Cable. They offer completed custom cables for fair prices too.

That was his name, and he's done everything he said he would thus far. I'm sure I'll be using him much more in the future.

Yeah, no worries about the ARC and CEC. I guess Atmos can't transfer through it anyways, or so I've read, so I may not even use it. Although I'd like to see if I could get everything worked out, just for the experience.

One would think that new products of the newest generation using the same branded audio and video codecs would work seamlessly, as they should, so hopefully it will work out that way.

If the spades don't work out I'll get the banana plugs. I could even order the banana plugs now, return the spades, and actually save a couple bucks. The spades were more money... just by a few bucks total...

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[PENG]

Peng, what leads you to believe the KEF Q550 would be that much less sensitive than what KEF says? I know with many makers it can be true, but in most I've read, KEF is rarely off by more than 1.5dB.

Ken, you are correct, measurements showed they typically were found to be within 0.5 to 2 dB off only. However, that's just the voltage sensitivity. As you know, KEF specified X dB/2.83V/1m and nominal impedance of 8 ohms. Based on the measurements by the NRC and Stereophile, the impedance of the Q and R series speakers could have impedance well below 8 ohms in the band up to near 1 KH. So to be on the safe side, I would, and as JA alluded to, consider them 4 ohm speakers. That means if one is to use that often linked online calculator, one should enter a sensitivity figure 3 dB below the specified one. Or, simply subtract 3 dB from the calculated result, for using dB/1W instead of the voltage sensitivity of dB/2.83V as specified by KEF.

Examples of Stereophile and NRC findings:

Q900
The Q900's voltage sensitivity is specified as 91dB/2.83V/m. My estimate was slightly lower, at 90dB(B)/2.83V/m, but this is still usefully higher than average. The speaker's impedance is specified as 8 ohms, but as fig.1 shows, the impedance drops to 4 ohms in the top octaves and to below 4 ohms in the lower midrange, reaching a minimum value of 3.17 ohms at 160Hz. There is also a combination of 5 ohms magnitude and –42° electrical phase angle at 80Hz, meaning that the KEF does need to be used with a good 4 ohm–rated amplifier or receiver.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-q900-loudspeaker-measurements#1EMSbB0bB5iRVGFz.99

LS50
Somewhat optimistically specified at 8 ohms, the LS50's impedance (fig.1, solid trace) drops to 4 ohms at 200Hz and to 5.4 ohms at the top of the audioband. The electrical phase angle is generally mild, but the combination of 5.3 ohms and –41° at 135Hz, a frequency where music often has high energy, will make the speaker work at its best with a good, 4 ohm–rated amplifier.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker-measurements#B329QU7h7U4gV09U.99

R700
My estimate of the KEF R700's B-weighted voltage sensitivity was 87dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is 2dB lower than the specified 89dB/2.83V/m. KEF specifies the R700's impedance as 8 ohms with a minimum magnitude of 3.2 ohms. My own measurement (fig.1) shows that the minimum impedance, which includes the impedance of 10' of speaker cable, was 3.3 ohms at 145Hz. The impedance magnitude (solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost all of the audioband
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-r700-loudspeaker-measurements#tMr84ZWMFTqJxQWx.99

R500

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/images/stories/loudspeakermeasurements/kef_r500/impedance.gif

 

[EvolDevol]

Sorry about the ARC confusion. That and CEC always confuse me, and it seems for a lot of equipment it confuses the manufacturers too. Sometimes it works fabulously, other times not so much.

You heard from Mark Sabbarese. one of the owners and a real stand-up guy. He does care and is always doing what he can to make the Accessories4Less.com buying experience better.

As for cables, sorry I overlooked your question. It's a can-of-worms subject. I make my own cables out of Monoprice CL-2 jacketed 12 gauge, and it's overkill on size for less than 8ft runs. It's even that for my surrounds at the other end of the 19ft long room. I use locking banana plugs from Blue Jeans Cable. They offer completed custom cables for fair prices too.

These cables are pretty bad ass for the price. Mediabridge. Hopefully they work as good as they look and feel.

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[KenM10759]

They're fine and will work great. Do check tightness of the binding posts on them now & then though.

 

[EvolDevol]

They're fine and will work great. Do check tightness of the binding posts on them now & then though.

Thanks for the tip. Will do. If they loosen up, I'll order the same but with the banana ends.

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[EvolDevol]

When do you expect to have speakers in and setup for initial testing? This should be very interesting. I have a feeling you may not feel a need for amps right away. Of course the speakers will need some break-in, a good 10 to 20 minutes should do it.

Ken, the speakers and wire came in today.

I'm setting them up as I type.

If you have any knowledge on the Denon Audyssey, I could use it. I only have the center, and both towers, not sure what the best setting on this AVRX3400H is to test.

I'm guessing there's a 3 channel option?

I hope. Leveling towers now. ... Man are they sexy...

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[KenM10759]

Sorry, but I've been away from that level of Audyessy for a while so I don't know if it has a 3-channel mode or not. Are you using a subwoofer with the three speakers too?

 

[EvolDevol]

Sorry, but I've been away from that level of Audyessy for a while so I don't know if it has a 3-channel mode or not. Are you using a subwoofer with the three speakers too?

No subwoofer yet. The Audyssey was super easy, it asks you if you have this or that as it goes through. It even shows you how to hook everything up! I'm surprised it doesn't say that stuff in the quick start manual.

You were right about the spades. They are hard to crank down. I can see them loosening with any little movement or vibrations. Plus, the Denon didn't accept the spades on its end so I had to cut them off. I will get banana plugged wires.

I also need more cables for the bluray and other things.

But man are these speakers clear and clean. The range is pretty unbelievable, I mean I guess if you're someone who's used to spending 20k on speakers, they may not be impressive, but I haven't heard anything so much better to call it. These are every bit the Martin Logan Motion's I wanted, and I think they can even go deeper in the range. Higher I don't know, but so far the tweeter is awesome.

I'm convinced there's nothing I could've bought, for what's so far $1700, that could produce this kind of sound. If I figure the deals I got on everything, including the $600 brand new Denon 3400, I made out man. $30 in 12g CL2 cables, receiver, huge center channel and towers, all for $2330?

The sound those components make at that cost will blow anything comparable out of the water, I'm talking even 5.1 systems, any of those HTIB with a receiver for like $2500. There's no way they could produce what I have in front of me. I've been shopping for months. This I know. This right now can make my ears bleed and do it clearly and cleanly.

As of now I see no need for another amp, but I also haven't tried one out to hear the difference. This is also only a few hours into a new system. Maybe my thoughts will change, but as of right now I'm impressed with what I have, and I'm pretty sure if I walked a sound engineer or a pro AV person, they would be to, especially when they find out the cost of the sound that's being produced.

The start of this thread was either ELAC 2.0 or KEF Q. I still haven't heard the 2.0's, I know they're significantly less expensive than what I have. Are they as sexy as what I have? NO. Are they made at a higher quality? NO. Do they have remarkably better, or better components at all? Don't think so. Do they sound better? Don't know, but Don't think so, nor at this point do I care. Did I make the right choice? Excuse my diction, but F@#$ Yeah.

Thanks for your guidance and input. I don't know you from a can of paint, but you were a great deal of help. I'm glad I kicked up the extra $ on these. I'm blown away.

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[KenM10759]

Great feedback, thank you for sharing!

Just so you know, the previous Q series was well regarded but they worked on taking some money out of things people didn't need (dual binding posts, grills, 4 different finishes) so they could keep prices similar while boosting sound quality significantly. And they have! I've heard them and they're so close to the R series it's scary.

I'm so glad you discovered what I expected you'd find: Super sound at a reasonable price. I'm also happy you discovered how good that Denon is before laying out more for an amp. Better to add a good sub and then surrounds (Q150's or Q350's.)

 

[EvolDevol]

Great feedback, thank you for sharing!

Just so you know, the previous Q series was well regarded but they worked on taking some money out of things people didn't need (dual binding posts, grills, 4 different finishes) so they could keep prices similar while boosting sound quality significantly. And they have! I've heard them and they're so close to the R series it's scary.

I'm so glad you discovered what I expected you'd find: Super sound at a reasonable price. I'm also happy you discovered how good that Denon is before laying out more for an amp. Better to add a good sub and then surrounds (Q150's or Q350's.)

I've found some older model, but brand new SVS subs, for really good prices. I think I will probably go that route.

I also need the Q50's for toppers.

Then the surrounds. I'm not sure how I'm going to sway there. I've been looking at the 150's, I think the 350's may be overkill for me, but I don't know. I'm really thinking the Q50's would be fine after hearing the 3 Uni-Q drivers up front. With 2 more for Atmos and another 2 in the rear, that'd be 7 Uni-Q's.

What I'll do is order 2 Q50's for Atmos, and then try them in a regular 5.1 set up. If they're not good enough, I'll move them to the front as Atmos, and order the 150's or maybe just get the 350's for some 'round back boom. We'll see. I think the sub will make the boom factor I need just fine, added with the clarity of a few more Uni-Q's, I should have the combo I need. Again. Things change. So we will see soon. I will update as I go.


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[EvolDevol]

Great feedback, thank you for sharing!

Just so you know, the previous Q series was well regarded but they worked on taking some money out of things people didn't need (dual binding posts, grills, 4 different finishes) so they could keep prices similar while boosting sound quality significantly. And they have! I've heard them and they're so close to the R series it's scary.

I'm so glad you discovered what I expected you'd find: Super sound at a reasonable price. I'm also happy you discovered how good that Denon is before laying out more for an amp. Better to add a good sub and then surrounds (Q150's or Q350's.)

And thanks again Ken. You've been the greatest help through all of this.

It may not have worked out this way without all your input.

THANK YOU!

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[KEW]

Which SVS subs are you looking at and how much?
While most had great performance, some did not have much control for the purpose of tuning.

If you are buying direct from SVS, you have the risk-free trial, but if from another agency, you may not.

Also, be wary of sellers on Amazon who offer a discount, but want you to email them before ordering - that is a scam! If you place/process the order via the Amazon website, you are safe. It is not a good scam in the sense that it is pretty obvious something is up. It seems these guys are hacking/taking over legitimate seller's accounts (with good reputations) and attempting to direct buyers to make payment outside of the Amazon system. The way they attempt to do this is have you buy Amazon gift cards to cover the cost of your purchase and give them the number as an effort to look like Amazon is still involved. Like I say it is a weak scam, but people get excited about finding a great deal, and I guess if 1 out of 100 fall for it, it is making money.

I saw a pair of SVS Ultra Bookshelfs being sold for $500 (half price), things got suspicious pretty quick, but I got curious as to what the scam was. In my case, it took about 1.5 days to reach the point where the scam was fully apparent!

 

[EvolDevol]

Which SVS subs are you looking at and how much?
While most had great performance, some did not have much control for the purpose of tuning.

If you are buying direct from SVS, you have the risk-free trial, but if from another agency, you may not.

SB12NSD

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[EvolDevol]

Which SVS subs are you looking at and how much?
While most had great performance, some did not have much control for the purpose of tuning.

If you are buying direct from SVS, you have the risk-free trial, but if from another agency, you may not.

I'm open to all subs. I didn't wanna jump over $500, but I could do $600 if I have to...

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[KEW]

SB12NSD

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I'm open to all subs. I didn't wanna jump over $500, but I could do $600 if I have to...

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Are you buying direct from SVS? If so you can return if you don't like them.

@shadyJ is the guy you should talk to on this, but I am thinking that Hsu has a sub with similar performance/cost but has more tuning options. Also Rythmik has the LV-12R for $549 shipped with lots of tuning options! Deep bass is nice, but it can set up resonances in your room that are difficult to tame (and ruin the music) if you don't have decent tuning options.

 

[EvolDevol]

Are you buying direct from SVS? If so you can return if you don't like them.

@shadyJ is the guy you should talk to on this, but I am thinking that Hsu has a sub with similar performance/cost but has more tuning options. Also Rythmik has the LV-12R for $549 shipped with lots of tuning options! Deep bass is nice, but it can set up resonances in your room that are difficult to tame (and ruin the music) if you don't have decent tuning options.

I wasn't going to get that sub directly from them. They don't have them in stock.

A lot of people seem to like the HSU subs, most of the ones that were mentioned were around $7-800.

I haven't seen the model you listed nor the Rythmyk one. I will look into them.

Thank you for all the input. You've given me lots to think about, and have been a great help over the last couple/few weeks. I really appreciate it.

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[KEW]

I wasn't going to get that sub directly from them. They don't have them in stock.

A lot of people seem to like the HSU subs, most of the ones that were mentioned were around $7-800.

I haven't seen the model you listed nor the Rythmyk one. I will look into them.

Thank you for all the input. You've given me lots to think about, and have been a great help over the last couple/few weeks. I really appreciate it.

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No rush, you have great sound now!
Bounce it around with some of the guys here. I am not sure that the NSD for $500 is your best option.