Just Auditioned B&W 800D

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, I was off work today and wanted to goof around a bit so I spent 1 hr listening to the $23,000/pr B&W 800D.

My first impression: unimpressive & under whelming.

I brought along a few of my favorite CDs including Eagles, Smallvile Soundtrack, Dead Zone TV Soundtrack, & Prince.

The 800Ds were placed about 12" from front wall, 6 ft from sidewalls, and 6 ft apart from each other slightly toed-in. I sat smack in the middle & about 5 ft from the speakers.

They were hooked to the $5,000 Classe CA-2200 200WPC Stereo Amp, $3,500 Classe CP-500 Stereo Preamp, and $6,500 Classe CDP-300 CD Player.

Everyone says how great the B&W speakers are with the tweeters, midrange, and upper bass, so I listened to all those areas and compared them to my Definitive BP7000s & 7001s by memory, which is, of course, not an ideal way of comparison. But I tried by best. The volume was pretty loud – about the same volume I would listen to at home, which is about 90 dB C.

I thought the 800Ds’ tweeters were excellent, but no more so than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

I thought the 800D’s midranges were excellent, but no more so than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

I thought the 800Ds’ male and female vocals were excellent, but no more than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

I thought the 800Ds’ upper bass was tight and very good, but no more than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

But there were 2 major differences.

1) The 7000s’ low bass extension totally KILLED the 800Ds – no contest whatsoever.

2) The 7001s’ & 7000s’ soundstage was more 3D, spatial, and lively. The 800Ds’ soundstage was a little flat, 2D, and rather mediocre.

I recall The Audio Critic saying that all box speakers > $4K sounded more or less the same. I believe the Audio Critic. I had faith, but I needed proof. And for the first time, I now have my personal proof.

My conclusion:
1) A pair of $23,000 B&W speakers hooked up to $15,000 of Classe components could NOT outperform a pair of $3,800 BP7001SCs.

2) A pair of $5,500 BP7000SCs OUTPERFORMED a pair of $23,000 B&W speakers.

 

[GlocksRock]

in all fairness, you would have to listen to them in your house to give a true comparison. This is just like Seth saying how bad the Def Techs sounded in the showroom. You may get those speakers home and find that they outperform your def techs in all aspects besides low end. I know first hand how great the def tech's are, but I'm just trying to be subjective.

 

[Haoleb]

6 feet apart? What is the dealer showing them in? A garden shed?

 

[codexp3]

Okay, I was off work today and wanted to goof around a bit so I spent 1 hr listening to the $23,000/pr B&W 800D.

My first impression: unimpressive & under whelming.

I brought along a few of my favorite CDs including Eagles, Smallvile Soundtrack, Dead Zone TV Soundtrack, & Prince.

The 800Ds were placed about 12" from front wall, 6 ft from sidewalls, and 6 ft apart from each other slightly toed-in. I sat smack in the middle & about 5 ft from the speakers.

They were hooked to the $5,000 Classe CA-2200 200WPC Stereo Amp, $3,500 Classe CP-500 Stereo Preamp, and $6,500 Classe CDP-300 CD Player.

Everyone says how great the B&W speakers are with the tweeters, midrange, and upper bass, so I listened to all those areas and compared them to my Definitive BP7000s & 7001s by memory, which is, of course, not an ideal way of comparison. But I tried by best. The volume was pretty loud – about the same volume I would listen to at home, which is about 90 dB C.

I thought the 800Ds’ tweeters were excellent, but no more so than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

I thought the 800D’s midranges were excellent, but no more so than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

I thought the 800Ds’ male and female vocals were excellent, but no more than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

I thought the 800Ds’ upper bass was tight and very good, but no more than the 7001s and 7000s. They were equal.

But there were 2 major differences.

1) The 7000s’ low bass extension totally KILLED the 800Ds – no contest whatsoever.

2) The 7001s’ & 7000s’ soundstage was more 3D, spatial, and lively. The 800Ds’ soundstage was a little flat, 2D, and rather mediocre.

I recall The Audio Critic saying that all box speakers > $4K sounded more or less the same. I believe the Audio Critic. I had faith, but I needed proof. And for the first time, I now have my personal proof.

My conclusion:
1) A pair of $23,000 B&W speakers hooked up to $15,000 of Classe components could NOT outperform a pair of $3,800 BP7001SCs.

2) A pair of $5,500 BP7000SCs OUTPERFORMED a pair of $23,000 B&W speakers.

If you ever get a chance, listen to the Paradigm Signatures. I'd like to get your opinion on the B&W diamond vs. the Paradigm Beryllium. You know which one I like. I've heard the Revel Ultima 2s, and I loved beryllium twetter on that speaker as well. I liked the Wilson Sophia 2 over the 800D, maybe check that one out sometime (since you're out running around in the middle of the work week).

 

[Sheep]

You know, Johnny Canuck had similar sounding posts...

SheepStar

 

[AdrianMills]

I'm not entirely sure if your comparison was worth anything really except maybe to highlight how important the room is and to show that the only real way of subjectively comparing two pieces of audio equipment is to have them side by side.

It's of course entirely possible that you'd prefer your own speakers anyway even in a proper side by side comparison but still, without that proper comparison you'll never really know.

Coincidentally, a friend and I are taking the afternoon off and going to a B&W dealer today to demo the 802D and the 804S side by side. I've always avoided listening to the 802D in case my considerable satisfaction with my 804S disappears. But I couldn't resist any longer.

 

[Seth=L]

I will no longer recommend speakers to people, or tell them what I think is bad. Speakers from white van scams and Bose are verifiably bad, and I will continue to curse their filth. I will only recommend that a potential buyer of speakers go out and listen to speakers and see what fits them, or unbelievable speaker deals which pop up now and again.

I will only make comments about speakers I have had a decent amount of time listening to, meaning mostly in my home. You can strike my ERA speaker review from the records as it was done in a poor environment and has no credibility.

I realize this seems off topic, but I really wish that the Def Tech fanboys would just can it. You people are so high on yourselves I can't hardly see through the smoke. Maybe you are just extremely eccentric and I can't wrap my head around it, or maybe you are just filled with fanboy powers to the likes of which I will never know.

I am reaching a point where I believe, I don't know for certain, that there is something fishy going on here. Your "audition" is a joke, pure and simple. I have auditioned the B&W 802s twice, once in a horrible room, and another time and a decent room. The horrible room had a horrible sound, the decent room probably didn't tap the potential of the speaker, but at least the sound I was hearing was greatly improved.

Lower cabinet volume and driver/power arrangements in the B&W would dictate it's lower end output. The bass should be very accurate in it's operating limits.

Bi-polar speakers are more spatial, that's a fact. It's likely dealer didn't take the time to properly treat the room and position the speakers (more than likely due to their size constraints). I am not surprised this would happen. GlocksRock is correct on this matter, you have almost no credibility on this.

However, this is not the same thing as it was with my mention of the Definitive Tech's amps crapping out. Granted I didn't measure the horrible noise emitted when the amplifier's protection was enabled, and it's possible they somehow had both sets of speakers connected improperly caused the noise (though I can't think of a connection scheme that could have caused such failure). The fact remains, the noise did occur when the rest of the tower was perfectly fine.

It is my suggestion to any reader of any forum, to take everything with a grain of salt, sometimes two. Not everyone on the internet is a genius (I am no exception).

AcuDefTechGuy, it's one thing to love your speakers, but you flaunt Definitive Technology like you own the company. I know you have some valuable input at times, and I give credit when it's due. This thread seems designed to aggravate, and congratulations it worked.

Go ahead and pick all my careless statements out of this post to form your counter attacks, it seems to be the most effective response on a forum. Just know it's not easy to come up with a completely coherent reply at 4:30 in the morning.

 

[Sheep]

Seth, you are the ****ING man!

That's why I posted the Johnny Canuck reference. Remember him with Polk?

Awesome,
SheepStar

 

[Warpdrv]

I agree with you 100% Seth=L.......

I will not tell people what speakers to buy, too many variables....

I knew when I saw this thread it was going to run into some rough waters....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

in all fairness, you would have to listen to them in your house to give a true comparison. This is just like Seth saying how bad the Def Techs sounded in the showroom. You may get those speakers home and find that they outperform your def techs in all aspects besides low end. I know first hand how great the def tech's are, but I'm just trying to be subjective.

True, but I don't think I can afford $23,000 speakers sitting in my room. I would have to buy them on credit card or something. So, no.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

6 feet apart? What is the dealer showing them in? A garden shed?

I didn't measure it, but it looked like 6 ft apart. Could have been 7 ft, but definitely no more than that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you ever get a chance, listen to the Paradigm Signatures. I'd like to get your opinion on the B&W diamond vs. the Paradigm Beryllium. You know which one I like. I've heard the Revel Ultima 2s, and I loved beryllium twetter on that speaker as well. I liked the Wilson Sophia 2 over the 800D, maybe check that one out sometime (since you're out running around in the middle of the work week).

When I called the local Paradigm dealer, he only had the Studios at the time. Maybe next time I'll call again to see if he has any S8.

This is Oklahoma, though. I don't think anybody here carries Wilson Audio.

I was even surprised somebody had the B&W 800D!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not entirely sure if your comparison was worth anything really except maybe to highlight how important the room is and to show that the only real way of subjectively comparing two pieces of audio equipment is to have them side by side.

It's of course entirely possible that you'd prefer your own speakers anyway even in a proper side by side comparison but still, without that proper comparison you'll never really know.

Coincidentally, a friend and I are taking the afternoon off and going to a B&W dealer today to demo the 802D and the 804S side by side. I've always avoided listening to the 802D in case my considerable satisfaction with my 804S disappears. But I couldn't resist any longer.

That's true. I agree. Perhaps the show room is not optimal. But how many times have most of us just listened to speakers in show rooms and given our opinions? I think a lot of times. But like GlocksRock and you say, it's definitely not a good comparison.

But for $23,000 speakers + $15,000 electronics, I thought they would sound 100% awesome no matter where, but I was wrong. They did not sound very impressive at all. Perhaps under optimal circumstances, they may have sounded 100% awesome.

 

[mike c]

well, its 23k SRP right? and we all know here in AH that 15k of electronics simply means you have some cool amps

 

[GlocksRock]

Regardless of how much the electronics cost, we all know that they should be transparent and not affect the sound, just like when you went from Acurus,to Emotiva, to Denon, the sound quality stayed the same. But maybe you could talk the dealer into letting you demo them at your house.

Imagine how awesome they will sound when you eventually get your new house and dedicated HT room!

I've said this before, and I'll say it again to DefTech doubters:

I have NEVER heard any bipolar DefTechs sounding great in any stores because they just don't have the right room or speaker placement. If you don't have optimal room and placement, the midrange and tweeters will not sound as crystal clear as they should. And of course, if they boost the subwoofer too high, it will compromise the midrange and tweeter clarity. Just listen to Home Theater Magazine, Sound and Vision, and Audio Video Revolution.

Hey, what does Audioholics have against DefTechs anyway?

Why doesn't AH ever review DefTechs?

Based on what you said yourself, you can't trust what you hear in the showroom.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am reaching a point where I believe, I don't know for certain, that there is something fishy going on here. Your "audition" is a joke, pure and simple. I have auditioned the B&W 802s twice, once in a horrible room, and another time and a decent room. The horrible room had a horrible sound, the decent room probably didn't tap the potential of the speaker, but at least the sound I was hearing was greatly improved.

Bi-polar speakers are more spatial, that's a fact. It's likely dealer didn't take the time to properly treat the room and position the speakers (more than likely due to their size constraints). I am not surprised this would happen. GlocksRock is correct on this matter, you have almost no credibility on this.

However, this is not the same thing as it was with my mention of the Definitive Tech's amps crapping out. Granted I didn't measure the horrible noise emitted when the amplifier's protection was enabled, and it's possible they somehow had both sets of speakers connected improperly caused the noise (though I can't think of a connection scheme that could have caused such failure). The fact remains, the noise did occur when the rest of the tower was perfectly fine.

AcuDefTechGuy, it's one thing to love your speakers, but you flaunt Definitive Technology like you own the company. I know you have some valuable input at times, and I give credit when it's due. This thread seems designed to aggravate, and congratulations it worked.

Hey, Seth, I did not mean to provoke any bad feelings.

That was just my honest opinion. The audition room was probably 16' x 20' x 10' ceiling. It was not a bad looking room. But it might of had bad acoustics or bad speaker placement.

All I did was walked into this place and listened for 1 hour. Then gave my honest opinion. I was not at all impressed.

They said they are building a new bigger/better place/show rooms. When they finish, I will probably go back again to audition because it's a fun thing to do.

All I'm doing is giving my impression of the audition. Nothing more. It's nothing personal.

Again, maybe all this proves is that room acoustics and speaker placement is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

For one thing, this room did not have any acoustic panels whatsoever. It just had plain walls and ceiling. Just a regular rectangular room. And the speakers were about 6 or 7 ft apart. I would have placed them 8-9 ft myself, but that's me.

 

[bandphan]

the mind is a powerful tool, and with any narrow or closed mindedness our judgements become clouded. Im fortunate that a retailer where i live lets me bring anything they have on display home for demo. I would have hoped the delear referenced by adtg would have done the 800s justice, but it could have been a preconcieved notion that clouded the demo. I almost never recommend marting logan speakers, as the have a very distinct sound, and not for everyone. As seth said speaker choices are tough and personal, other than subs, my opinion and recomendations are stated based on an op's budget and listening habits, and are broad. I for one get exasperated with all the fanboy thingy that happens, even understanding that people are proud of their gear.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You know, Johnny Canuck had similar sounding posts...

SheepStar

Sheep, for crying out loud, would you just talk in plain English?

I guess you didn't like my post, but I simply walked into this B&W/Classe showroom and listened for 1 hr. Then gave my thoughts.

Realistically, in about 6 or 7 years, I would have about $30K saved up in my HT Piggy Bank. If the B&W 800D sounded 100% awesome to me, I would definitely think about buying them in the future.

I also thought about the Revel Salon2 speakers if I ever get to audition them.

If there are speakers out there (about $20K/pr or less) that sound insanely outstanding and unbelievable, I'm all for it.

The Audio Critic loves the Linkwitz Orion and the Bang-Olufsen BeoLab5 speakers. Maybe I'll get a chance to audition them one day to see if they are the best like TAC says.

 

[InTheIndustry]

The 800Ds were placed about 12" from front wall, 6 ft from sidewalls, and 6 ft apart from each other slightly toed-in. I sat smack in the middle & about 5 ft from the speakers.

Note To AcuDefTechGuy:These ARE NOT nearfield monitors.

You seriously listened to something setup like that? If you sat 5 feet away from these, how could you possibly put any real power or volume through them to utilize this type of speakers potential? Why didn't you try sitting behind them or maybe off in another room? These positions make about as much sense as 5 feet away.

Next week go test drive a Porsch but only drive it in reverse through a school zone, then come back and tell us it's just as fast as your S-10, stops the same, handles the same, but can't haul as much stuff.

They were hooked to the $5,000 Classe CA-2200 200WPC Stereo Amp, $3,500 Classe CP-500 Stereo Preamp, and $6,500 Classe CDP-300 CD Player.

I would venture to say these were grossly underpowered.

I recall The Audio Critic saying that all box speakers > $4K sounded more or less the same. I believe the Audio Critic. I had faith, but I needed proof. And for the first time, I now have my personal proof.

I have read through quite a bit of the Audio Critic's writings & do not care for them in the least. His (my opinion) garbage seems to cater to his audience in always finding what they want to hear to be "true". Your above statement is case in point. What an absolutely STUPID generalization. Nobody in their right mind could possibly even begin to even THINK this to be true.... on any level.

My Conclusion:
I am by NO means a fan(boy) of B&W product. I have never owned B&W, but I've set it up on multiple occasions and sell against it (local competition is a B&W dealer) on a regular basis. I have only demo'd the 800 series in other dealers showrooms (across the country) and can RARELY find this speaker set up to what I would call "correct". I don't know why, but I always find the 800 series stuffed into a room way too small and stuffy to let this type of speaker open up and actually play.

Sorry if my post is really harsh on you AcuDefTechGuy, but I can't help thinking that deep down you know this was about as bad a setup as you could find these in. An unbiased post would have at least brought up how poor the demo conditions were & maybe even have been centered around it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

the mind is a powerful tool, and with any narrow or closed mindedness our judgements become clouded. Im fortunate that a retailer where i live lets me bring anything they have on display home for demo. I would have hoped the delear referenced by adtg would have done the 800s justice, but it could have been a preconcieved notion that clouded the demo. I almost never recommend marting logan speakers, as the have a very distinct sound, and not for everyone. As seth said speaker choices are tough and personal, other than subs, my opinion and recomendations are stated based on an op's budget and listening habits, and are broad. I for one get exasperated with all the fanboy thingy that happens, even understanding that people are proud of their gear.

I'm sure none of us are excluded on this list of having partial judgements. But knowing that fact helps us open up our minds significantly. None of us are beginners. We have listened to a lot of speakers before. We know what sounds bad, good, and great. We know when we are impressed.

The first thing to me is sound clarity. Femal vocals, male vocals, & instruments need to sound clear and not muddy. That is the most important.

The 2nd thing to me is smoothness and sound fatigue. After listening for 1 hr, do I feel like my head is going to explode?

3rd thing to me is BASS output - not just upper bass, but lower bass extension.