Jumpers/Power cord Upgrade:Fact or Fiction?

lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
The problem is this. The application of logic, or the lack thereof.

Here is the bottom line. If you had even a rudimentary understanding of AC power generation, its distribution and how an amplifier power supply works. Then the application of simple logic would lead you to the conclusion, that in no way could an AC power cord affect the sound of an amplifier. There is not even the remotest possibility.
It can effect the sound of an amplifier. I know mine sound much better when I actually changed it's position to being in this thing on my wall. :p:D
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

or invest in some cool looking rg59 and a compression tool and make your own:)
thats not a bad idea either :) i've gotten most of my cables from cable solutions which seems to sell the identicle canare product as blue jean cable comp..

price look to be similar

oh wait i want everyone on here to think i paid thousands for all my cables lol
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
WOW, now you have me killing kids all across the country and causing the education system to fail

Damn and all because I had some luck with a better cable...;)
You persist in arguing when you have no rational position to start with.

The following is quoted from an interview with an electronic engineer, named Bob Cordell, who at one point in his career actually designed audio amplifiers. The website where I found this interview, http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm, is no longer available. I am quoting some relevant parts of his interview. If you wish to see a full copy, send me a PM with an email address, and I'll send you the full file. Note, I underlined a few relevant lines in the text.
How important is the power supply in power amps?
The power supply converts the incoming AC line into the necessary DC voltages for the amplifier. It is especially important that adequate short-term current reserves be available from the power supply when musical peaks demand that large currents be delivered to the loudspeaker. Most amplifier power supplies are unregulated, so their voltage will fluctuate by some amount in accordance with the current demands of the output stage. Their outputs will also contain some AC "ripple" as a result of the rectification process. It is the job of the large filter capacitors to minimize this ripple and provide good short-term high-current capability. The larger the cap, the better this is done. Well-designed power amplifiers are fairly immune to ripple on the power supply and voltage fluctuations, with the exception that these imperfections come directly into play when the amplifier clips, since the power supply rail voltage sets the maximum achievable output before clipping. Power supplies with higher ripple will tend to sound worse when they clip, because the instantaneous clipping power tends to be modulated by the 120 Hz ripple on the power supply. Power supplies with larger power transformers and larger amounts of filter capacitance will help an amplifier sound better. Put simply, the power supply is important to the extent that it avoids being under-sized.

If capacitors act as a power supply reservoir for an amp, will power cords, receptacles, dedicated lines, or power conditioners really do anything since they are before the caps? Is there science behind this?

The amplifier power supply draws almost all of its current from the AC line only during the short time interval at the top and bottom of the sine wave when the rectifiers are conducting. This time interval may only be 10% of the total cycle. An amplifier drawing an average of 200 Watts from the 120V line, or about 1.7 amps average, will actually be pulling that current in 0.8 ms bursts on the order of 11.8 amps twice each cycle. This means we'd like to keep the TOTAL AC line resistance low, not just that of a six-foot power cord. It is not unusual in a house with 14 AWG Romex to see an AC line impedance of as much as an ohm at the outlet. Try it yourself and plug a 1200 Watt hair dryer into your outlet and measure how much the line voltage drops under this "10 Amp" load. Thus, when your amp demands a burst of 12 Amps from a nominal 120V line with an impedance of one ohm, you'll lose about 12 volts at the peak, or about 10% of your supply voltage. Since power goes as the square of voltage, the peak output power capability of your amp will drop 20% as compared to a perfect 120V line voltage source. This sounds bad, but the simplest cure is to use a slightly larger power amplifier in the first place. Better house wiring, and maybe a dedicated 10 AWG line to a 20-Amp breaker will help a lot – much more than an expensive 6-ft beefy boutique power cord. If the power supply is well-designed, fancy power cords, outlets and power conditioners shouldn't matter much. Spend $2.50 on the Home Depot outlet rather than 49 cents, just so it is well-built and provides a good, reliable connection. Getting rid of hash, RF noise and transients on power lines is the job of a power conditioner, not an expensive power cord. Spend $50 on a good power strip with an EMI filter to protect your equipment, and you'll have most of the benefit you need. It is ironic that fancy stuff like this is associated with high-end audio gear, when it can be argued that the cheaply engineered, mass-marketed stuff should need it the most. There appears only to be pseudo-science behind power cord marketing. The argument for boutique power cords is far weaker than the argument for boutique speaker cables, and even that is on thin ice.
You whole argument is based on the assumption that your Krell amp has a poorly designed power supply in it, one that benefited by substituting another power cord. That is pretty bold, but it is also testable. Considering the price that Krells command, I would be surprised, even shocked, if it were true.
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
WOW, now you have me killing kids all across the country and causing the education system to fail

Damn and all because I had some luck with a better cable...

see the problem is you just jump on in attack mode rather than discussing any possible merits..

such as maybe i had a bad cable to begin with and of course I'm going to see an improvement, or maybe with a better quality assembly you get better solder connections or better more durable connections that wont fail after a few years..

maybe ask me how much a paid for said cables to see if i'm preaching going out and spending thousands on cables. maybe ask me what i have. maybe tell me what you use and what kind of equipment you have.

coming on in full attack mode doesnt make me want to listen to you I dont think most people on here are going to repsect you for it, sure a few will pat you on the back and give you a "thanks" but ranting on and on about vaccines has nothing to do with audio equipment so take a sedative and relax.

and if what i'm hearing is all in my head... then maybe the best upgrade to your stereo is the same stuff I'm smoking

;)

do you want some? I need to make some money so i can buy some more cables
Dr. Mark(TLS Guy) already has wide respect on this forum and is one of our experts. If you don't believe me look up many of his threads. The guy's setup is probably one of the top in the world. So if your looking for an audible improvement he's a guy to listen too.

Twisting his argument into a personal attack is silly and won't be tolerated.

I'm an engineer and I know many folks that believe unproven nonsense and actually use it in a real world application. I'm sure your not one of them. But TLS Guy has valid points. What you do in your home is your business.:p And how you hurt that other power cord is also your business:D(this is part of our sense of humor around here;))

You came into this thread asking if it were fact or fiction. You got your answer. Fiction can be fun as long as we realize it's that. As I've said you probably learned something switching the cables, and if it's your passion I'm cool with it. But I'm not cool with turning a factual debate into an emotional/ personal one. If you want to vent we have a place for that. Let's keep the thread on topic.

Thanks.

Oh since you got us all stirred up maybe a humorous post in the steam vent is in order.:) Know any jokes?
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
You persist in arguing when you have no rational position to start with.

The following is quoted from an interview with an electronic engineer, named Bob Cordell, who at one point in his career actually designed audio amplifiers. The website where I found this interview, http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm, is no longer available. I am quoting some relevant parts of his interview. If you wish to see a full copy, send me a PM with an email address, and I'll send you the full file. Note, I underlined a few relevant lines in the text.


You whole argument is based on the assumption that your Krell amp has a poorly designed power supply in it, one that benefited by substituting another power cord. That is pretty bold, but it is also testable. Considering the price that Krells command, I would be surprised, even shocked, if it were true.
Post more of this juicy stuff. :) I love when topics turn informational.
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
You persist in arguing when you have no rational position to start with.

The following is quoted from an interview with an electronic engineer, named Bob Cordell, who at one point in his career actually designed audio amplifiers. The website where I found this interview, http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm, is no longer available. I am quoting some relevant parts of his interview. If you wish to see a full copy, send me a PM with an email address, and I'll send you the full file. Note, I underlined a few relevant lines in the text.


You whole argument is based on the assumption that your Krell amp has a poorly designed power supply in it, one that benefited by substituting another power cord. That is pretty bold, but it is also testable. Considering the price that Krells command, I would be surprised, even shocked, if it were true.

obviously you have not even bothered to read all of my posts and responses which shows that all you are concerned with is proving your point that I'm an idiot..

I have said that i had the biggest improvement when i upgraded the cheap cable that came with my B&K amps that i had before the Krell.. i even said when i got my krell the cable it came with was pretty heavy duty and i did not really hear a difference when i upgraded it to a cable I bought for 45 bucks.

in this case your ears and your eyes are shut down. you are not open to fully understanding your opositions full viewpointand even listening (or in this case fully reading) what i even say you just keep saying the same thing over and over.

really this is my biggest point.. Swerd is a great example of making statements without even reading all of my posts.

:D
 
P

PeterWhite

Audioholic
In your very first post you wrote this:

"honestly and i know this is like witchcraft on this site but I noticed an improvement when i upgraded my power cables on all of my amps. I didnt spend a fortune but in my opinion it was the most noticable improvement I ever made without upgrading equipment."

It seems that now you'd like us to think that the improvements you heard were due to the original power cords being defective; bad solder connections and the like. But of course nobody would suggest that replacing defective cords with properly constructed cords was witchcraft, now would they? So why don't you drop the straw man argumentation, do some reading on the subject, and stop pretending that your feelings are hurt? When you write nonsense, you shouldn't be surprised when people call it nonsense.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
Just a small nit to pick:D
Short memory is not the reason for DBT, your response in no1 is:D
Short memory need a rather quick switching and short sound segments so we don't forget the mall details.:D
That is indeed, a small nit to pick. Yes, you are correct - short memory is not "the" reason for DBT, it is "a" reason for DBT.

"don't forget the mall details" - how ironic...:D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I have said that i had the biggest improvement when i upgraded the cheap cable that came with my B&K amps that i had before the Krell.. i even said when i got my krell the cable it came with was pretty heavy duty and i did not really hear a difference when i upgraded it to a cable I bought for 45 bucks.
OK, I admit I got those details wrong. But it doesn't change my conclusion that Krell or B&K (neither of which make inexpensive or cheaply engineered amps) sell products with such poorly-designed power supplies that they benefit from tweaks or improvements such as 3rd party power cords.

obviously you have not even bothered to read all of my posts and responses which shows that all you are concerned with is proving your point that I'm an idiot..
I'm really only concerned with showing that you are wrong. Whether you might be an idiot or not… will be decided by all those sitting around, munching popcorn, and enjoying the brawl :D.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
see the problem is you just jump on in attack mode rather than discussing any possible merits..
I asked nicely in an earlier post and you ignored my questions.
I think my feelings are hurt...:)

Can you help and explain the differences in power cords, to some of us that may not understand?
The comparisons to religion and cars just make it even more confusing for me.

What is your understanding as to what is going on inside the better power cable, that's not happening inside the cheap one?

Also, the most confusing part for me: How does electricity travel through many miles of wire to get to my house, only to have six feet of power cord 'make or break' the whole thing?

How do you think all these inferior power cords get UL approval, in the first place?



Thanks
Signed,
Electrically Confused
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
In your very first post you wrote this:

"But of course nobody would suggest that replacing defective cords with properly constructed cords was witchcraft, now would they?.

I dont know it seems to me like thats what they are saying..

this is why in another post maybe people should have asked what i had what i upgraded to.

maybe educating on the merits of a properly assembled cables is valid, while just getting bigger and cooler looking is not valid

maybe rather than saying you are an idiot you could just say.. MAYBE your old cable was going bad and you got lucky and switched cables and had a rare well timed improvement woudl I have listened to this.. probably

instead you call me and idiot, uneducated, spewing false unsubstantiated information bla bla bla...

how about talking to me :)

my feelings arent hurt I'm just equally anoyed by the way this has gone on.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
I dont know it seems to me like thats what they are saying..

this is why in another post maybe people should have asked what i had what i upgraded to.

maybe educating on the merits of a properly assembled cables is valid, while just getting bigger and cooler looking is not valid

maybe rather than saying you are an idiot you could just say.. MAYBE your old cable was going bad and you got lucky and switched cables and had a rare well timed improvement woudl I have listened to this.. probably

instead you call me and idiot, uneducated, spewing false unsubstantiated information bla bla bla...

how about talking to me :)

my feelings arent hurt I'm just equally anoyed by the way this has gone on.
Guess what - that cable you replaced? It CAN be tested to tell you if it was going bad.
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
Guess what - that cable you replaced? It CAN be tested to tell you if it was going bad.
i dont have the equipment anymore.. as i've said I've upgraded. plus I would not even know how to do that.
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
I asked nicely in an earlier post and you ignored my questions.
I think my feelings are hurt...:)

Can you help and explain the differences in power cords, to some of us that may not understand?
The comparisons to religion and cars just make it even more confusing for me.

What is your understanding as to what is going on inside the better power cable, that's not happening inside the cheap one?

Also, the most confusing part for me: How does electricity travel through many miles of wire to get to my house, only to have six feet of power cord 'make or break' the whole thing?

How do you think all these inferior power cords get UL approval, in the first place?



Thanks
Signed,
Electrically Confused
to you rickster.. it didnt seem like you were truely asking nicely also I never claimed to knowing what makes cables better or worse.. I simply stated i heard an improvemetn in sound when i made an upgrade.

as i also said I'm not an engineer so i dont really know how that came to be.. but it did.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
What it all boils down to is: If you can hear a difference, that difference can be measured (with a SPL meter, or other electronic instrument - all depends on the parameter being measured). So, if you can't measure a difference, you can't hear a difference. Period. There's no getting around it.

There are also measurable differences that you can't hear as well. They just fall outside the range of human hearing.

Anybody care to refute that blanket statement?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I should have written, "many of the claims." For example, when they make claims about improving the "sound stage" or "openness", how do you test?
Same way as audible differences:D Sit the golden ear down, and have him compare two whatever components for those differences:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

but I wanted at least 1 person to have an alternate opinion on here :) and I stand by it I still think I heard great improvement when i upgraded my power cables on my b&k amps. ....
Which is just fine and dandy:D Besides, we didn't 'burn' you at the stake as you are still posting;):D
It is good that you posted your points so we could have all these exchanges and others just reading this board and posts can see what is the issue and what can be learned from it. Perhaps they may become better informed.
If, on the other hand you didn't post, no reason for the rest to post to a non message and nothing is learned by others:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
..
"don't forget the mall details" - how ironic...:D
Well, that spell check cannot read my mind yet:eek: :D

But, one can also do rapid switching in a sighted testing and that would take care of memory but not the issue of bias.:D
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
Well, that spell check cannot read my mind yet:eek: :D

But, one can also do rapid switching in a sighted testing and that would take care of memory but not the issue of bias.:D
I won't argue with that!
 
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