Scott Palmer

Scott Palmer

Audiophyte
I have a pair of pristine, JBL L86s I bought new in 1987. And while it may not seem worth the effort, I'd like to rebuild the crossovers. It's about sentimental value. Plus, I enjoy such projects. Unfortunately, I'm not terribly knowledgeable regarding specific components. Optimally, I'd like to rebuild the units with higher quality parts, and even make upgrade changes, if possible. My problem is, I'm not sure where to start. Additionally, I've been unable to find any discussions of this model speaker anywhere on the forums I monitor. I did, however, receive this (see attached) advice from an extremely knowledgeable designer, but he was just making general suggestions, not offering feedback regarding results he personally experienced. I rebuilt a pair of KLH speakers, but there were a number of threads about the specific model that helped me choose the parts. Is it simply a matter of matching values and ordering new components? Or are there other considerations to be weighed? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

Attachments

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Curious, you say pristine...that doesn't apply to the crossovers in this case?
 
Scott Palmer

Scott Palmer

Audiophyte
By pristine I simply mean that they are in mint condition, in terms of the drivers, even dust caps, etc., as well as the cabinets. And the surrounds have been replaced, as is extremely common with JBL's mystery foam. But the poor old crossovers haven't had any work done to them yet. And they are now 30 long years old.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
By pristine I simply mean that they are in mint condition, in terms of the drivers, even dust caps, etc., as well as the cabinets. And the surrounds have been replaced, as is extremely common with JBL's mystery foam. But the poor old crossovers haven't had any work done to them yet. And they are now 30 long years old.
So, what's the issue you're trying to resolve? Why would the crossovers need work done particularly?
 
Scott Palmer

Scott Palmer

Audiophyte
I think I can anticipate your sensibility on this issue, and I certainly respect the, “if it ain’t broke,” philosophy. However, from what I’ve gleaned over the years, replacing components in the crossover with higher quality parts can often produce audible results. Additionally, even functioning components can fall out of range. So it’s insurance, plus a bit of hopeful thinking that I might hear an improvement. And, if that weren't enough, I'm just a tinkerer who can't leave things alone. And I just finished my Phase Linear amp upgrade, so now I don't have anything to do. So my philosophy might be described as, "If it ain't broke, that doesn't mean you can't pretend it is." Besides, if I work on the crossovers, my brain's placebo effect is certain the believe everything sounds better.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
IMHO you are quite correct with regard to the Capacitors. If I was concerned those I'd replace, but typically any inductors or even resistors used don't need replacing.
 
Scott Palmer

Scott Palmer

Audiophyte
Thanks for the input. And the reason I was going to replace the inductors had to do with putting better ones in there. Lower impedance and a better core. But that was it, just the caps and the inductors, which, as you know, could still run up into as many $$$$ as a guy felt like spending. With these speaker, I have to weigh their relative value against their sentimental value.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
If you really want a crossover upgrade, and you have enough real estate inside the boxes, do a biased XO.
That requires replacing each cap with two caps twice the size.ie..8mf changed to a pair of 16mf wired in series. At the center point of each pair you connect a 2m ohm resistor with the other end going to the + side of a 9v battery.
What happens is the 9v dc charge keeps the caps tight and always "on". Which eliminates a momentary phase shift that would otherwise occur every time the signal reverses direction 60x/sec.
Caps are the known main offenders at causing distortion. Eliminate that distortion and it all gets better.
I used upgraded caps, compared to the original caps JBL used in the '70's.
 
Scott Palmer

Scott Palmer

Audiophyte
Wow, that's pretty interesting and technical stuff. I'm not certain I understand exactly how you organized the circuit, but I'm very interested in learning more about the modifications you've cited. Die Hölle morgen Früh? Bist du Deutscher?
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
The circuit layout would be the same as the original XO,more/less.
The original XO of my original L212 was mounted on one 4x7" card. To build the Biased XO required I used three 4x7" cards. One for each driver, due to the fact you're using twice the number of capacitors that are twice the size.
In the L212, the XO was/is mounted in the open back top half of the towers. In that case, the extra space required did not infringe on the internal volume needed for the midrange or midbass drivers, as each were mounted in their own sub-enclosures.
The first thing is finding a diagram of the original XO. The first place to enquirer is audioheritage.org. That is the Lansing forums.
Then depending on how much physical space inside the boxes there is as to if you can build just one large card or do what I did, building 3 separate cards.

Only part Deutsche, die hollie morgen früh is the title of one of my fav songs, recorded by Helene Fischer.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I have a pair of pristine, JBL L86s I bought new in 1987. And while it may not seem worth the effort, I'd like to rebuild the crossovers.

Optimally, I'd like to rebuild the units with higher quality parts, and even make upgrade changes, if possible.

My problem is, I'm not sure where to start. Additionally, I've been unable to find any discussions of this model speaker anywhere on the forums I monitor. I did, however, receive this (see attached) advice from an extremely knowledgeable designer, but he was just making general suggestions, not offering feedback regarding results he personally experienced.

Is it simply a matter of matching values and ordering new components? Or are there other considerations to be weighed? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Here is a link for the original schematic of the L86 crossover. It looks like the schematic you attached.

I haven't heard that model speaker, but its design looks as if it might be a good one. Certainly by 1987, JBL had made significant improvements in speaker and crossover design over what it had produced during the 60s and 70s. In the past, I was familiar with the infamous L100 and its poorly designed crossover. I was involved in a successful design for a completely new crossover for it. But the L86 original crossover seems to be the only design available.

I'd like to address the idea that you can improve the sound quality of speakers merely by rebuilding a crossover with 'higher quality parts'. For the most part, that's false advice. First of all, inductor coils don't go bad with use or time. Resistors also don't go bad, unless they completely fail because of enough overheating to char or burn them. Capacitors, however, have been the subject of great amounts of chatter among speaker fans – that capacitors made by different makers and different materials generate large differences in sound quality. Most of that info is false.

What does matter is that a crossover design keeps the speaker drivers within the audio range where they best perform. It's important that the parts used have values as close as possible to what is specified in the design. How close is good enough? For most audio crossovers, within 10% is good enough. A capacitor such as C3, the first one in the mid-range circuit, has a value of 14 µF. If you factor in a tolerance of ±10%, anything from 12.6 to 15.4 µF will be good enough.

The origin of the capacitor sound quality myth comes from the widespread use, in the past, of cheap non-polar electrolytic (NPE) capacitors. There are 2 problems with them. First, many of them were so cheaply made that, when new, they varied by more than ±10% from their printed label. And second, the capacitance values of NPE capacitors made with non-solid or 'wet' electrolyte (aluminum or tantalum oxides or salts which bind small amounts of water) are known to drift over time and with use. If they once were within specification, with time, they can drift out of spec.

Other capacitors made with rolls of thin plastic (mylar or polypropylene) coated with a very thin layer of a metal conductor (usually aluminum) do not suffer from this problem. They are called by a variety of names, usually film or metalized polypropylene (MPP) capacitors.

As a result, if and only if, you have aged NPE caps (more than ~30 years old) in your crossovers made with materials that are known to drift out of spec, you probably will benefit from replacing them. Otherwise, don't bother. The idea that various different kinds of film or MPP capacitors impart an audibly different sound quality to speakers is nonsense widely repeated on the internet by people who clearly do not understand what they're talking about. I strongly advise that you ignore it. It's like the myth that speaker sound quality can be improved by choices in speaker cables, usually more expensive speaker cables.

You may wonder why the L86 schematic shows two capacitors where one would do. For example, look at C3, where there is a 14 µF cap in parallel with a much smaller 0.01 µF cap (often the smaller cap is called a bypass cap). Obviously this was not done to achieve a capacitance of 14.01 µF. It was based on a misguided belief in the capacitor sound quality myth. The idea was to use a cheap 14 µF capacitor combined with a smaller expensive film capacitor. The hope was that the 'sound quality' of the smaller bypass cap would dominate the poor sound quality of the larger cap. It's a nice idea if you like clever sounding tweaks, but there is simply no evidence to support the idea that it results in improved sound quality. It's another myth.

I don't know enough to address the idea of using charge-biased capacitors in audio crossovers. It was introduced in the 80s by JBL (and others?), but never did catch on in the industry, or among most DIY speaker builders. The extra cost and complexity may have been the main reason. I've never heard a speaker with that type of crossover so I cannot comment about its sound quality.
 
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DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Swerd,

I'll address some of what you say. Most certainly the weak link in XOs are caps, certainly very old cheap ones that may not have been within specs to start with, as you mentioned.

All the info I gathered on cap types, bypass caps, Charge Coupled Networks™️ Was from Lansing Heritage. Mostly from the member who's screen name is/was 4313b/Giskard.
It was Greg Timbers at JBL who developed those biased XOs. Only used in the various K2 & Everest models from around 1993 and later. And I know Giskard personally knew and interacted with Greg.
Other than those top-o-line models, JBL was never known to spend much on XOs.
When I built my XOs, I used middle of the road (price wise) components. Jensen coils, mostly Dayton polypropylene caps, reg resistors, polystyrene caps for the HF circuit.
And at that, the cost was $300+ for the pair of L212.
Was it worth the cost? I will say, YES.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
All the info I gathered on cap types, bypass caps, Charge Coupled Networks™️ Was from Lansing Heritage. Mostly from the member who's screen name is/was 4313b/gisard.

It was Greg Timbers at JBL who developed those biased XOs. Only used in the various K2 & Everest models from around 1993 and later. And I know Gisard personally knew and interacted with Greg. Other than those top-o-line models, JBL was never known to spend much on XOs.
Thanks for that background info. I appreciate all your comments.
When I built my XOs, I used middle of the road (price wise) components. Jensen coils, mostly Dayton polypropylene caps, reg resistors, polystyrene caps for the HF circuit.
And at that, the cost was $300+ for the pair of L212.
Was it worth the cost? I will say, YES.
I don't doubt Greg Timbers well-demonstrated abilities, but I guess it comes down to whether a charge-coupled network makes an audible difference. Put it to a test. Build two identical speakers. One has a crossover with the charge-coupled network, and the other has a similar overall design crossover, but lacks the charge-coupled feature. Perform blind listening tests with enough people to produce statistically significant results.

Easier said than done :rolleyes:. I wonder if anyone has done that.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Thanks for that background info. I appreciate all your comments.
I don't doubt Greg Timbers well-demonstrated abilities, but I guess it comes down to whether a charge-coupled network makes an audible difference. Put it to a test. Build two identical speakers. One has a crossover with the charge-coupled network, and the other has a similar overall design crossover, but lacks the charge-coupled feature. Perform blind listening tests with enough people to produce statistically significant results.

Easier said than done :rolleyes:. I wonder if anyone has done that.

I have not done a blind test...other than at one point in time, I'd had the biased XOs installed for a few years, and I thought it did not sound quite right. So I continued to listen, then it occurred to me to check the 9v batteries. Sure enough, they were dead...cos of 2m ohm resistors to the battery, very little current flows. So the batteries will last as long as their shelf life. I install new batteries, and as the caps fully recharged the system was back up to its full potential.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I think at the time JBL was replacing the DD66000 with the DD67000 is when Greg created a biased circuit to replace the 9v batteries to keep the caps charged.
Then I guess about the time JBL PRO came out with the M2 Reference Monitors, which had dsp enabled Crown amps (no passive XOs) Greg/JBL replaced the Charged-Coupled Networks™️ in the Everest with a similar setup, using Mark Levinson amps.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… I'd had the biased XOs installed for a few years, and I thought it did not sound quite right. So I continued to listen, then it occurred to me to check the 9v batteries. Sure enough, they were dead...cos of 2m ohm resistors to the battery, very little current flows. So the batteries will last as long as their shelf life. I install new batteries, and as the caps fully recharged the system was back up to its full potential.
Interesting, you could hear if a battery had died.

Does each pair of caps in a charge-coupled crossover get it's own 9v battery? The L86 schematic, from earlier in this thread, has 3 caps. If it's built with a charge-coupled network, does that take 3 separate batteries? Or does a single battery wired to all three pairs of capacitors work?
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Interesting, you could hear if a battery had died.

Does each pair of caps in a charge-coupled crossover get it's own 9v battery? The L86 schematic, from earlier in this thread, has 3 caps. If it's built with a charge-coupled network, does that take 3 separate batteries? Or does a single battery wired to all three pairs of capacitors work?
No, just one battery to ground. Each capacitor pair is connected to its own 2m ohm resistor, which all resistors then connect to the battery.
It does take awhile for the caps to receive a full charge due to the high resistance.
I have no idea what Greg later did to have a biased circuit to provide the voltage.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@DD66000

I got curious about charge-coupled crossover capacitors and Googled the subject. I wanted to read an explanation of what is involved. I'm self-taught on the subject of audio, mainly in DIY speaker building and much less so in electronics. I lack the formal training and viewpoint of an electronics engineer.

I found two interesting reads:

The first is a thread in the Lansing Heritage Forum titled The Continuing Saga of the Charge-Coupled Network. The first post is the original question, and the the third post is Greg Timber's response.
The inventor, Greg Timber, explains the electronic reasons why he believes charge-coupled crossovers perform better than standard crossover networks. He further claims it produces better sound quality from speakers, but he provides no explanation of the better acoustic performance, or data to back up his claim. I was glad to read this as I knew very little on the subject, and here the inventor himself speaks up. But I'm a skeptic about claims for better sound quality. Electronic explanations aren't enough for me, I want to see listening test results.

The next is Jeff Poth's article on Charge Coupled Crossovers at Enjoy The Music.com. He attempts to explain charge-coupled networks in plain English. He provides more electronic explanations – that charge-coupling helps avoid or minimize the negative effects of dielectric absorption and mechanical resonance or microphony that capacitors suffer from. But his article also does not address the question that I want to see answered.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
@DD66000


The first post is the original question, and the the third post is Greg Timber's response.
The inventor, Greg Timber, explains the electronic reasons why he believes charge-coupled crossovers perform better than standard crossover networks. He further claims it produces better sound quality from speakers, but he provides no explanation of the better acoustic performance, or data to back up his claim. .
This is the part that interests me....when did he make the claim, during employment or after? How to know if not more a marketing-driven thing from a skeptical viewpoint?
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Elsewhere on Lansing Heritage, Greg explained how Charged-Coupling worked. Every time the current reverses direction the caps turn off as the current crosses the zero volt line. That causes a phase shift. By applying a 9v charge, the audio signal stays above the zero volt line. The other thing he said, that a continual dc voltage applied keeps the layers of the caps tight. Instead of the layers tightening/ loosening as the ac voltage changes.
I read just recently that Vandersteen were using a biased XO in 2008, 4 years after I built mine.
 
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