JBL HDI 3800 vs KLIPSCH RF-7III

Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
Is it because HBO knows your IP Address is Sweden? :D
Yeah, since I pay HBO Nordic to access their content :D It's likely to come over here as well, but it takes a little while. We still only have HD available though UHD is planned to be available at the end of 2021.....
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Chief
It's a fluff piece without the measurements. ;)
I saw that review as well. It seems as if they went out of their way to avoid taking any measurements (or, at least they made sure to avoid posting any results).

This is basically a rhetorical question, but why would anyone make a speaker in this price range with such glaring deficiencies? I can understand skewing the frequency response somewhat to provide a certain sound that may be preferred by some, but I see no rhyme or reason in this case.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe somebody will ship their RF7iii to ASR. :D
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
I saw that review as well. It seems as if they went out of their way to avoid taking any measurements (or, at least they made sure to avoid posting any results).

This is basically a rhetorical question, but why would anyone make a speaker in this price range with such glaring deficiencies? I can understand skewing the frequency response somewhat to provide a certain sound that may be preferred by some, but I see no rhyme or reason in this case.
No one has to go out of their way to NOT measure a speaker. Loudspeaker measuring is not an easy thing to do, especially with a large speaker like the RF-7.

As for the sound preference, some people don't know or care about the tonality of a speaker like the RF-7, they just like its dynamic range. Also, while that response is hardly flat, some of those peaks and dips would look worse on a graph than they would sound. Honestly, this speaker is probably listenable although I don't think it would be great. The real problem areas to me are the dip at 1kHz, and the peaks at 5kHz and 8kHz. This graph came from time-windowed measurements so I don't know whether that bump from 400-500 Hz is real or a measurement artifact. Something else to consider is that a lot of horn speakers aren't at their best directly on-axis. Horn diffraction would be at its worst at that angle. This speaker could very well have a more neutral response past 10-degrees or so. We don't know this because that reviewer didn't measure that, despite how important it is. All of that spikiness above 15kHz is diffraction from the horn, but it's not going to sound like much at those high frequencies.

Something else to consider is that graph has a weird scale that really accentuates anything that isn't flat. It only has a 30dB Y-axis window where the standard is 50dB. That would blow up the flaws in the response of any speaker.

I wouldn't make too many conclusions from this graph. There may be a crossover problem. This seems to happen in other Klipsch speakers. However, even that might not be as bad as it appears. If the speaker was measured at too close of a distance, that is what would happen, you would see a hole at the crossover. You can't measure a speaker like this at 1 meter, and that reviewer might have made that mistake; certainly, others have with respect to Klipsch speakers. Klipsch measures and designs these speakers for a 3-meter distance. The reviewer does not disclose the mic position relative to the speaker, but that is important. There is too much vagueness about the measurements of that review to make an informed judgment.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
No one has to go out of their way to NOT measure a speaker. Loudspeaker measuring is not an easy thing to do, especially with a large speaker like the RF-7.

As for the sound preference, some people don't know or care about the tonality of a speaker like the RF-7, they just like its dynamic range. Also, while that response is hardly flat, some of those peaks and dips would look worse on a graph than they would sound. Honestly, this speaker is probably listenable although I don't think it would be great. The real problem areas to me are the dip at 1kHz, and the peaks at 5kHz and 8kHz. This graph came from time-windowed measurements so I don't know whether that bump from 400-500 Hz is real or a measurement artifact. Something else to consider is that a lot of horn speakers aren't at their best directly on-axis. Horn diffraction would be at its worst at that angle. This speaker could very well have a more neutral response past 10-degrees or so. We don't know this because that reviewer didn't measure that, despite how important it is. All of that spikiness above 15kHz is diffraction from the horn, but it's not going to sound like much at those high frequencies.

Something else to consider is that graph has a weird scale that really accentuates anything that isn't flat. It only has a 30dB Y-axis window where the standard is 50dB. That would blow up the flaws in the response of any speaker.

I wouldn't make too many conclusions from this graph. There may be a crossover problem. This seems to happen in other Klipsch speakers. However, even that might not be as bad as it appears. If the speaker was measured at too close of a distance, that is what would happen, you would see a hole at the crossover. You can't measure a speaker like this at 1 meter, and that reviewer might have made that mistake; certainly, others have with respect to Klipsch speakers. Klipsch measures and designs these speakers for a 3-meter distance. The reviewer does not disclose the mic position relative to the speaker, but that is important. There is too much vagueness about the measurements of that review to make an informed judgment.
I like that.

I've commented on my dislike of B&W that while I would never buy their product, and the 600 Series audition left a serious distaste in my mouth, I do not question that to some people their upper level speakers may sound fantastic. I didn't find their 700 series to be worth the price to play. I haven't heard anything in the 8s.
I fully agree the same can reasonably be said of Klipsch.
Clearly the 8000F seal has been clubbed enough. :p It's a decent performer. I get it. I wouldn't buy it, still, but I get it.
Comparatively, look at the Heresy review, @Mr._Clark . Horrendous.
I wish I understood better the complexities of horn loading drivers in a 2-way vs a 3-way, but when we saw measurements for the Noesis 215RT from JTR, it was pretty stunning. Clearly a Coaxial driver can blend well with 2 15" cones. So I have no doubt that the 210 RM would perform as well, but how does the 2-way 210 HT?
Does JTR Jeff use a better driver (even in the non-reference class?)? Is his more simple Horn actually better than the Tactrix Klipsch uses? Better XO? Better bass drivers that can be crossed more smoothly?
I'd love to see measurements for both even though I'm not in the market for either. :)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
I like that.

I've commented on my dislike of B&W that while I would never buy their product, and the 600 Series audition left a serious distaste in my mouth, I do not question that to some people their upper level speakers may sound fantastic. I didn't find their 700 series to be worth the price to play. I haven't heard anything in the 8s.
I fully agree the same can reasonably be said of Klipsch.
Clearly the 8000F seal has been clubbed enough. :p It's a decent performer. I get it. I wouldn't buy it, still, but I get it.
Comparatively, look at the Heresy review, @Mr._Clark . Horrendous.
I wish I understood better the complexities of horn loading drivers in a 2-way vs a 3-way, but when we saw measurements for the Noesis 215RT from JTR, it was pretty stunning. Clearly a Coaxial driver can blend well with 2 15" cones. So I have no doubt that the 210 RM would perform as well, but how does the 2-way 210 HT?
Does JTR Jeff use a better driver (even in the non-reference class?)? Is his more simple Horn actually better than the Tactrix Klipsch uses? Better XO? Better bass drivers that can be crossed more smoothly?
I'd love to see measurements for both even though I'm not in the market for either. :)
Jeff uses MUCH better drivers for starters. Some of the best in their class. Also, his crossovers are many times more complex than the Klipsch crossovers. His waveguide geometry is fine. So is the hybrid Tractrix waveguide that Klipsch uses, really. I am sure the 210HT is a very good performer, I have heard it on a number of occasions.

The thing is, Klipsch can build better speakers. They definitely have the engineering to do it. I think where they tend to screw up is that they have a house sound that they go for along with penny-pinching on things like crossovers. However, they are doing so well in sales that they have no incentive to fix the problems evident in many of their speakers.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Chief
The thing is, Klipsch can build better speakers. They definitely have the engineering to do it. I think where they tend to screw up is that they have a house sound that they go for along with penny-pinching on things like crossovers. However, they are doing so well in sales that they have no incentive to fix the problems evident in many of their speakers.
I found myself wondering what Dennis could do with the RF-7IIIs.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Are you referring to Erin's review of the Heresy IV?
Yes.
I found myself wondering what Dennis could do with the RF-7IIIs.
Run. :p
Maybe Danny R could “fix” them! :oops:
I kid. Sort of. ;)
And while I would love to see what Dennis could do after a brief glimpse of the Ultra Book he modded, I know Super high efficiency SPL monsters aren't his focus. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are only half as bad as they look in that measurement, and possibly a third again better ~15º off-axis... It is still a situation where you probably have a certain degree of driver mismatch in conjunction with a poor XO. If the drivers don't want to fox wit each other, there's only so much you can fix in the mix. ;) (Pls don't mind the slang.)
That said, DRs fix was likely based on 1m or even nearfield measurements, and I don't know that we've ever seen a GSR Modded Klipsch measured properly after the fact. Kicker is, while there is likely room for (significant?) improvement, there's only so much lipstick you can smear on a pig before it just looks like a cheap whore! o_O :D

Hmmm.... I should stop trying to AH when I have 3 other projects juggling. ;)
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Eh considering as Shady said we still don't have the full set of measurements and there is the possibility of the tester not having the microphone at the correct distance. The jury is still out on this one for me.

Somebody just needs to test a 100 lb speaker for free so we can be done with this

Ahem..... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?.... Bueller?.....
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Dennis is not a fan of horns. He would throw them away and build an entirely different speaker, I would guess.
Hey can you tell me why he doesn't like horns? I'm just curious is all.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic General
I do remember he bought a pair of JBL 590s....and sold them and made no comments about them I could find.....
Doesn’t that brand have free returns ? Lol epic fail ... wish I had 590/
 

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