Israel's influence on US foreign policies

[3db]

I want to state that while a military response in no way, morally, ethically, legally, has to proportionate. Israel, IMO, passed the point of morals on it's response.

I want to point out that Palestinians got what they voted for. Period. HAMAS was elected, and part of their appeal is that the Islamic Brotherhood wasn't violent enough.

As a matter of fact after the 2008 elections, HAMAS rounded up their I.B. competition and tied ropes around their necks, the other end to a truck bumper. I'll let you figure out the rest.

I'm not sure how you deal with that death culture mindset if you are Israel.

We agree on the Israeli response being over the top.
Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas as the West likes to depict. I firmly believe that Netanyahu made a deal with the devil ( Hamas) to prevent a legitimate Palestinian government (PLA) and two state solution from forming.

 

[jinjuku]

There has been no documented proof of this whatsoever. Just idle speculation and gossip as usual. The same BS that claimed weapons of mass destruction held by Iraq.

Have you watched the video? I'm thinking not by the response of the sound of crickets I'm hearing here.
Sad, really sad.

What are you talking about? Can you provide actual sources?

Fact Sheet: The Iran Deal, Then and Now - Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation

Updated June 2025 What is the Iran Deal or “Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action” (JCPOA)? On July 14, 2015, the United States and its international negotiating partners reached an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program: the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) or the Iran nuclear deal...

armscontrolcenter.org

What You Need to Know About the Iran Nuclear Deal

Get up to speed with the recent Iran nuclear deal news here.

www.icanw.org

Iran Newly Breaches Nuclear Deal | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

 

[jinjuku]

We agree on the Israeli response being over the top.
Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas as the West likes to depict. I firmly believe that Netanyahu made a deal with the devil ( Hamas) to prevent a legitimate Palestinian government (PLA) and two state solution from forming.

The PLO was already in it's death spiral. Arafat couldn't maintain an impossible balance because that balance ultimately had the stipulation that Palestinian Arabs and the political apparatus had to acknowledge Israels right to simply exist. He was in, and by extenstion, the PLO, and impossible bind.

Israel isn't of entirely clean hands, but since things have been historically messy, I think it's impossible and all you will have is an array of schitty choices.

 

[jinjuku]

Too bad Israel wasn't put somewhere else...or that all this religious nonsense still means anything.

It's more tribal. Just read the 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' for some insight.

 

[GO-NAD!]

My point is that there never was a Palestinian people or nation, they were simply a nomadic tribe who identified simply as Muslim Arabs. They’ve been driven out of virtually every Muslim country. They reside in because everywhere they go. They start crap with that nation and eventually get kicked out. The Muslim world hates them and only wants them in Israel’s territory because they hate Israel as well. The idea of a two state solution sounds good on paper, but it’s just never gonna work out. The Palestinian official position is that Israel will never exist as a country and they will never recognize it.

Well, they identify themselves as Palestinians. Who are we to say otherwise? Despite the American declaration of independence , there were no actual Americans until the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

There are 2 million Palestinians still in Jordan, a half million in Lebanon and another half million in Syria. And ironically, there are 2 million in Israel itself.

You talk about them as if they share a single opinion. The PA/PLO recognize the State of Israel (although not its Jewish Character). It's Hamas that has not recognized and has vowed to destroy Israel. There is no single Palestinian position, either official, or public opinion.

 

[3db]

The PLO was already in it's death spiral. Arafat couldn't maintain an impossible balance because that balance ultimately had the stipulation that Palestinian Arabs and the political apparatus had to acknowledge Israels right to simply exist. He was in, and by extenstion, the PLO, and impossible bind.

Israel isn't of entirely clean hands, but since things have been historically messy, I think it's impossible and all you will have is an array of schitty choices.

Really? Is that why Yasair Arafat signed the Oslo accords? Isn’t part of that accord that each state recognizes the other?

I agree with the mess sentiment for sure from both sides. However, the stigma and Western slant that Arabs and Palestinian peoples are inherently evil still very much persists today judging by some of the posts I have read on this post. The flagrant dispelling of truths by Israeli controlled US media doesn’t help.

 

[3db]

What are you talking about? Can you provide actual sources?

Fact Sheet: The Iran Deal, Then and Now - Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation

Updated June 2025 What is the Iran Deal or “Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action” (JCPOA)? On July 14, 2015, the United States and its international negotiating partners reached an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program: the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) or the Iran nuclear deal...

armscontrolcenter.org

What You Need to Know About the Iran Nuclear Deal

Get up to speed with the recent Iran nuclear deal news here.

www.icanw.org

Iran Newly Breaches Nuclear Deal | Arms Control Association

www.armscontrol.org

You have a point there. I forgot about the aspect of them resuming their program.

I would like to point out that Iran complied with JCPOA and had no enriched nuclear material before that point to make weapons. Its fact that the Islamic religion forbids to target civilians and the assassinated supreme leader was prohibiting their development. Furthermore and in typical short sightedness of present and past US administrations, the US walked away from this despite Iran working with the JCPOA. Seeing Israel as a threat to their sovereignty, they began to enrich their nuclear weapons since the US walked away and broke the deal.

The attack of the US and Israel on Iran has now hardened Iran's resolve to have nuclear deterrents where as before the war and the US departure out of the JCPOA, they were complying with the JCPOA.

I'm inclined to think that Israel would be the first country to toss nuclear weapons at Iran if backed into a corner, not the other way around based on their Iran's behaviour in this war of strictly hitting military targets. Iran in this war has proven itself to be very disciplined in its retaliation responses unlike the Israelis who go after civilians and military opposition.

 

[jinjuku]

Well, they identify themselves as Palestinians. Who are we to say otherwise? Despite the American declaration of independence , there were no actual Americans until the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

There are 2 million Palestinians still in Jordan, a half million in Lebanon and another half million in Syria. And ironically, there are 2 million in Israel itself.

You talk about them as if they share a single opinion. The PA/PLO recognize the State of Israel (although not its Jewish Character). It's Hamas that has not recognized and has vowed to destroy Israel. There is no single Palestinian position, either official, or public opinion.

It's certainly an ethnic and tribal mix unable to sustain a single political authority. That's an understatement.

I wonder what would have happened in 1948 if instead of forming the Arab League of Nations and attacking, they just negotiated.

 

[jinjuku]

They reside in because everywhere they go. They start crap with that nation and eventually get kicked out.

Yeah, the PLO attempting a coup in their host countries of Lebanon and Jordan didn't help. The only country to patriate them was Jordan and that didn't turn out great.

 

[jinjuku]

The attack of the US and Israel on Iran has now hardened Iran's resolve to have nuclear deterrents where as before the war and the US departure out of the JCPOA, they were complying with the JCPOA.

Iran is determined, IMO, in any circumstance. They have engendered ill will with their neighboring countries. It is what it is.

I've no idea why we kicked this off with Iran. The cheap option would be to remove all their enrichment capability and simply supply them with fuel grade materials since that is the veneer they are presenting.

 

[Dude#1279435]

My information collection on the Middle East comes from Karsh, Friedman, Fisk, Yergin.

What are they saying?

 

[3db]

Iran is determined, IMO, in any circumstance. They have engendered ill will with their neighboring countries. It is what it is.

I've no idea why we kicked this off with Iran. The cheap option would be to remove all their enrichment capability and simply supply them with fuel grade materials since that is the veneer they are presenting.

What ill will did Iran do to its neighbor? I need proof.

 

[GO-NAD!]

It's certainly an ethnic and tribal mix unable to sustain a single political authority. That's an understatement.

Well, occupying two separate pieces of land and political stability being impossible to achieve - in no small part due to Israeli machinations - it's no wonder they can't sing from the same song sheet.

I wonder what would have happened in 1948 if instead of forming the Arab League of Nations and attacking, they just negotiated.

Indeed.

I suspect that because of the nature of the region and its history, even if they started negotiating in 1948, they'd still be negotiating today.

 

[jinjuku]

What are they saying?

They are historians. I couldn't begin to summarize. Suffice it to say it's complicated and there are no innocent parties.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Iran is determined, IMO, in any circumstance. They have engendered ill will with their neighboring countries. It is what it is.

They may be determined now, if not before. Whatever the perceived shortcomings of the JCPOA, Iran was conforming with it and was not producing anything remotely close to weapons grade material. If Trump had not pulled out of the agreement, we probably wouldn't be where we are today. Now that it's clear the USG can't be trusted to abide by an agreement, there is more incentive than ever to produce a nuclear weapon.

I've no idea why we kicked this off with Iran.

I think the most plausible explanation is that Netanyahu suckered Trump into it.

The cheap option would be to remove all their enrichment capability and simply supply them with fuel grade materials since that is the veneer they are presenting.

It would only be cheap if Iran agreed to such a plan. I don't believe that's in the cards now.