Is Sub really needed?

B

Boyer

Audiophyte
From what I heard ( and not very much) if you got some really good floor standing speakers a sub isn't going to add much if any. I tried one of the HSU subs I don't recall the model and my old L100T's sounded much better without the sub. Not saying the L100T's are great but they smoked that sub with ease.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Full Audioholic
Those JBL speakers were loved by many people, so I suspect they are pretty decent speakers.
Not sure exactly what sub you tried out, but a good sub configured properly can benefit almost any speaker system.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic General
Those JBL speakers were loved by many people, so I suspect they are pretty decent speakers.
Not sure exactly what sub you tried out, but a good sub configured properly can benefit almost any speaker system.
agreed and I'll emphasize the 'good sub configured properly' part .......
 
B

Boyer

Audiophyte
Called my friend, said it is VTF-2 MK5..the bass coming from the sub was not as tight, had to really crank it even to hear it at all. Sub has 12" woofer, L100T's have 12" just covered up the HSU at normal listening levels for me.
And not sure if that sub is of high quality or not..doesn't sound any better in his setup.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
The Hsu sub is high quality. The JBL L-100s are more a matter of taste but bass-wise no, they can't do what a good sub does. I have a pair of JBL 4311Bs now and back in the day a big fan of L100s, too. I suspect your implementation/integration as well. Do you have old 2ch gear not suitable for incorporating a sub well? I have newer JBL towers (590s) that do even better in the bass department but I still use subs with them; few towers have the bass capabilities I want and they tend to be fairly expensive but still don't offer the placement options a sub does for best bass response in your room. As to whether you need a sub for just certain kinds of music rather than HT use, more a matter of preference.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Spartan
Not sure how a speaker "smokes" a subwoofer...

If not integrated properly a sub can stand out and sound not so good. There's more to it than just plugging it in and letting 'er rip.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I agree with the guys that integration was probably the issue. But what kind of content was used? Listening to Boston would be different than Hacksaw Ridge.
 
B

Boyer

Audiophyte
The Hsu sub is high quality. The JBL L-100s are more a matter of taste but bass-wise no, they can't do what a good sub does. I have a pair of JBL 4311Bs now and back in the day a big fan of L100s, too. I suspect your implementation/integration as well. Do you have old 2ch gear not suitable for incorporating a sub well? I have newer JBL towers (590s) that do even better in the bass department but I still use subs with them; few towers have the bass capabilities I want and they tend to be fairly expensive but still don't offer the placement options a sub does for best bass response in your room. As to whether you need a sub for just certain kinds of music rather than HT use, more a matter of preference.
I only used one HSU Sub, I have a Pioneer VSX-1131 (that may have been the problem) does lot of things but nothing really well. I don't want to make it like I'm against newer products
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
The sub was probably cancelling out at the listening position, some rooms can be quite tricky to setup correctly and need either very weird/not feasible placement, or really specific delay/distance adjustments to come into their own. it took me a good few months before I had my subwoofer working with the correct settings, as the normal measured distance didn't play well with the actual seating position. The room could have been just too large as well, but that subwoofer should have been able to over power those JBLs with ease.

SheepStar
 
SPLaddict90

SPLaddict90

Audioholic Intern
I am not very educated in Home Audio, but I know for a fact those subwoofers are great, the subwoofer is designed to play the lower frequencies with authority and with much less distortion than any full range/midrange driver ever would.
placement of the sub is the biggest thing regardless of your environment, if you don't want to do the sub crawl or don't trust your ear, Parts express has a very cheap RTA that is very good, moving the subwoofer around and facing it in different directions will change this, also checking where you crossover on your tower speakers and sub will make a difference, especially if you are having the towers and sub play the same frequencies you will get cancellation most likely and this will cause lack of bass.
Proper set up of the subwoofer and placement will yield very noticeable differences in sound and performance.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic General
From what I heard ( and not very much) if you got some really good floor standing speakers a sub isn't going to add much if any. I tried one of the HSU subs I don't recall the model and my old L100T's sounded much better without the sub. Not saying the L100T's are great but they smoked that sub with ease.
Your L100t's go down to about 40Hz at -3db as I recall. I've got the t3's and for sure these speakers will deliver most if not all there is of deep bass from LPs. But, here's the rub, Dance Music on CD and Movies have bass or sound effects which dig deeper than where the JBL L100's in any flavor can reach. It's why I supplemented my pair with a 15" JBL B380 Passive Sub, which I powered with a Sony TA-N80ES, operating in bridged mode to deliver 560 watts at 8 ohms. Now, this sub gets into the 24 Hz arena at -6db and has paid off on Dance Music, Jazz with Double Bass, and, of course, movie sound effects, greatly enhancing my overall listening/viewing pleasure. I have the mains set to crossover at 60Hz which is what JBL recommended. And, thus, with the sub set for 60Hz, the bass is seamless to higher frequencies and there are is no pumping effect. The bottom line is a sub will indeed get you lower bass than your L100t's will deliver but you'll get nothing from it if mains are set to deliver full frequency and frequency only gets down into the 50Hz arena.
48837700336_201e0f16d6_k.jpg
 
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S

sterling shoote

Audioholic General
Those JBL speakers were loved by many people, so I suspect they are pretty decent speakers.
Not sure exactly what sub you tried out, but a good sub configured properly can benefit almost any speaker system.
And still loved by many people for their ability to deliver effortless volume and micro details at any volume.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
I only used one HSU Sub, I have a Pioneer VSX-1131 (that may have been the problem) does lot of things but nothing really well. I don't want to make it like I'm against newer products
Did you set it up using MCACC? I didn't think you were having any issues with new products particularly, but you need to work at setting up a sub well....and you didn't explain what you did at all but your results point at not doing it very well. Could be some sort of expectations on your part as to what a sub does, hard to know with the little you've shared....

ps Some old 2ch gear (electronics) just has little to help integrate a sub....
 
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M

MrBoat

Audioholic Samurai
A lot of people hear the word "sub-woofer," and they think that includes all of the bass impact we are hearing/feeling. When it comes to most mainstream music, however, it's actually the bass/mid-bass that probably turns us on, more so than the sub bass frequencies below say, 65hz.

How often do we hear reports of how surprisingly good the bass response is from some small bookshelf speaker with perhaps a 4-5" woofer, as if it's some sort of freak of nature? Then you look further into it and discover that the little speaker actually rolls off rather abruptly at 50 hz, or say, even 45 hz, giving benefit to doubt. Bass/mid-bass wins again.

Then onto the myriad of bass performance troubleshooting about the web, most all of which gets defaulted to the sub-woofer. 9 out of 10 times, the user would not be dissatisfied with the performance of his otherwise, well measured sub-woofer, but is actually missing the impact of solid, bass/mid bass performance from 100 hz to perhaps even 300 hz or so from the mains. How many people start researching "Mid-bass Modules," for being less than excited with what the sub-woofer actually does?

So do you need a sub-woofer? I don't, but then, what I typically listen to doesn't have much to offer below 40 hz and my rooms are rather small by today's standards. I also notice that the music I listen to tends to naturally roll off right about when my speakers do. It's almost as if the engineer who recorded my music must've also had speakers similar in performance to mine. I do own 5 sub-woofers (6, if I count the one in my truck) though and I can get great performance with them with most of my smaller speakers. With my larger main speakers that have 12-15" woofers, it kind of ends up being the long way around the block for what audible, musical qualities they may add. I've been hooked on the bass that the Eminence Delta Pro 12a's do in my main speakers, is the only reason I am not using subs, or end up crossing the subs really low, instead.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic General
For music maybe not so much if you have fairly full rage floor standing speakers. For home theatre maybe unless the floor standers go deep and loud enough.
 

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