Is spending 16k on a projector ridiculous?

[mtrycrafts]

If you get a chance take a look at the Infocus 777 I think you will be equally impressed for alot less money.Higher resolution does not nessarly mean better performance. The difference between 720p and 1080p is small but the differace between 3 chip DLP and single chip DLP is subtantial. IMOHO I am not that impressed with Sony anything.This is just my opinion

I looked at that 777. Plenty bright, maybe too bright. But it wasn't cheap at list of $15k and if the standard lens is not right for the room, another one is $4k on top

 

[LEVESQUE]

If someone wants to ignore this, spend over $10K on a 720p projector, then that's up to them. The sad part is that they will be the same ones complaining in 12 months when 1080p projectors are less money, 1080p HD disc players with discs are in Best Buy, and they don't have the extra cash to partake because they just got that killer 720p machine.

Just seems a waste right now for those watching their budget a bit more. Unlimited funds? Spend away! I won't recommend it right now though, I think the arguement is to good against it.

Well said. Exactly my point. Buying a high-end 720p machine today is a waste of money. If you absolutely want 720p, then buy something under 3000-4000$, just like the Sony HS-51a, HS60, Panasonic AE900, Z4, etc. Don't spend 10-15K$ (or more!) on a 720p machine today.

If you really want to spent 15K$ today, then buy a Sony Ruby VPL-VW100 at 1080p, a real 1080p scaler using Gennum VXP or Realta HQV chips, and a nice Blu-Ray player in 2 or 3 months. And all this for the same money that those "high-end" 720p 3 chip DLPs (Infocus 777, Sim2 C3X and the likes) would have cost you!

 

[westcott]

One. I never said spend 10 grand on a 720p projector, I said spend the difference in price of 1080p prices now vs later, about $1500 easy.

If you read my link, HD DVD will NOT be in 1080p in July and BlueRay in November at the soonest. Prices can drop considerably for 1080p in 8 months. You consider 8 months readily available for 1080p?

You people need to read more carefully what people are saying.

 

[LEVESQUE]

You consider 8 months readily available for 1080p?

I'm already using a JVC 5U D-VHS player with 1080i movies. With my Gennum VXP scaler bringing it to 1080p (true 1080i de-interlacing), I'm already enjoying 1080p movies...

The Ruby can easily be found at a street price of 7000$. A Gennum VXP or Realta HQV scaler goes around 3000$ (or less if you know where to buy them), and a Sony Blu-Ray player will be 1000$ (or less). Total: 11000$ for a top notch 1080p set-up, with a great scaler to scale all your regular DVDs in your collection to 1080p.

 

[westcott]

I'm already using a JVC 5U D-VHS player with 1080i movies. With my Gennum VXP scaler bringing it to 1080p (true 1080i de-interlacing), I'm already enjoying 1080p movies...

I am talking native material in 1080p, (that's what the p stands for, by the way.) not upscaling. Native will always look better than upscaling using the same components.

The Ruby can easily be found at a street price of 7000$. A Gennum VXP or Realta HQV scaler goes around 3000$ (or less if you know where to buy them), and a Sony Blu-Ray player will be 1000$ (or less). Total: 11000$ for a top notch 1080p set-up, with a great scaler to scale all your regular DVDs in your collection to 1080p.

And how much will all this be in 8 months when 1080p players are available, along with native content?

 

[RLA]

Hello All
As of today the two best images I have had the chance to see and install
Were the 777 and a double stack G-90 setup. Alan over at AVS has the
Ruby, Mercury 3 chip and a 720 p single chip DLP and recently completed a side by side comparison Mercury scored (10+) Ruby (7) I have not viewed the Ruby and a 3 chip side by side but I would pretty much concur with his findings.

I truly hope we will have vast 1080p content soon but people that are completing home theaters today that want the best under $20k are installing 3 chip machines that were $25k-30k just last year.

I will be installing the 777 in 2 weeks; the client is a very knowledgeable videophile. He did a lot of research on projectors in that price range. The important considerations were: #1 Manufacture customer support and warranty

Sony is abysmal my company wont spec in Sony because of all the tear outs
We have experienced in the past and when we did a warranty service it took ages to get the product back. We always had a loaner piece ready when we did a Sony install and one was not enough. This one is tough because I do admit a bias against Sony because of the way the company handled CS

#2 Flexibility: Client wants to view the projector with all types of material with and without light control on 106" screen



#3 I made him well aware of what could be coming down the road but the client made the decision because he wants it now.

I recently went through the same decision process when I bought my Harley
It was allot of money and I wanted the best. I agonized over what the future would bring and what changes and upgrades the new model would have I decided to buy and not wait.

Recently I took the bike into my high performance HD shop to have a Dyno tune. We started a discussion about the new models. The technicians indicated that the new models would have smog equipment installed for my state and they will need to meet a new CAFE standard and that I was wise to purchase when I did.

Moral of the story? I have a nice Electra Glide sitting in my garage that I cant ride because of back injury and weather but I really like to wear my HD leathers around town Seriously I am happy I made the purchase when I did

 

[LEVESQUE]

I am talking native material in 1080p, (that's what the p stands for, by the way.) not upscaling. Native will always look better than upscaling using the same components.

I think you're confusing upscaling and de-interlacing. You should try to read a little bit about both terms... Then think again about what you just said.

 

[LEVESQUE]

I have not viewed the Ruby and a 3 chip side by side but I would pretty much concur with his findings.

But why do you post your "opinion" then? An ISF calibrator should know better then use someone else opinion...

BTW, I had a famous ISF calibrator at my place a couple of weeks ago, and he said the combo Ruby + Gennum VXP scaler was the best video chain he has seen south of 30K$ projectors, including all the 3 chip DLPs 720p, and high-end CRTs he did calibrate and install also...Just like you... He was really surprised by the performance of the Ruby, particularly after reading "others" opinion about the Ruby on the nets (just like you), and particularly on AVS...

Like he said: "another proof that you should not always believe everything you read on the net"... Because he was REALLY impressed by the Ruby. Particularly with HD...

But no need to argue about that. You have your preferences, I have mine, and the other calibrator got other preferences also... Thre is no ultimate truth...

I should receive another Blu-Ray player (pre-production) next week to review it, and I'm happy I now have a real 1080p projector to test it, and not a projector downscaling everything at 720p. And I have to thank Sony for that, not Sim2, not Infocus, not Optoma...

 

[df4801]

Dealers almost never like Sony products.
Why?

Because Sony will let others sell on the net at lower prices.

Dealers will always say that products from Runco, Marantz, etc are vastly superior, because they have no competition on price for those "boutique" brands.
Can you blame them? Probably not, but at least take what they say with that in mind.

Almost forgot to add, someone mentioned Alan at AVS, like he was an impartial source. LOL.
I think Alan is actually a good guy, but he booted me off the site for 3 days because I mentioned that a competitor had the Ruby in stock, when Alan was out of stock.

Anybody who doesnt realize the amout of dealer bias that exacts is living in disneyland.

 

[RLA]

But why do you post your "opinion" then? An ISF calibrator should know better then use someone else opinion...

I did not say I have not viewed them both just not side by side in the same room and I have my own opinion that I expressed here in a previous post.

Because Sony will let others sell on the net at lower prices

That may be true for dealers. The reason Installers don’t like them is the time required to pull defects out of custom installs, turnaround time for warranty work and communication response time from the company.

 

[TABCON]

I don't get all the Sony bashing here. I've had many high (and low) end Sony products over a period of many years, and have yet to have one problem with any of them.

Warranty...never had to use it.

Tabcon

 

[howie85]

Tabcon, you are the lucky one. I had a sony xbr television set that was never correct. They attempted to fix this set many times over a time frame of more than 2 years. I had to go online and print over 30pages from various forums about others with the same problems I had that could not be fixed. Sony gave me the run around telling me they did not know were unaware etc until i presented them with the evidence. They flat out lied to me and I really wanted my set fixed so I let them drag it out. What I got for my flexibility in allowing them so much time to "Reasearch" the issue or "The parts are on backorder" etc? When they finally exchanged the unit as unrepairable they gave a Pro Rated exchange rate almost half of the origional price paid, since the set was over 2 years old. I told them it was because it took them so long but they told me that was the way it was take or leave it. What I can tell you is that if you have a warranty issue get a new one if you can, do not let them start fixing it cause you will just loose valuable time you paid for a working product. I still have a old 19in sony tv, probably one of the earlier good units they made a reputation from , it still works. I sold the replacment unit as soon as I could and as far as I know it is working fine.
My set was a kv40xbr800. The production of this unit was barely a year and then discontinued completely. Sony knew this was a problem child and I thought I was buying their best.
As far as projectors go I can not say. I have looked at many television sets and a few projectors and plasma sets etc. Reading many different reviews and trying to keep an open mind weighing the good and bad etc. It seems the pq of the ruby is quite good but bulb replacment is almost 2x what most current pj bulbs are and so far since they have not been on the market for very long it seems the life span of this bulb is suspect. That is a very inportant thing to consider if you use the pj a lot you could be in for a rude awakening if you have to fork over ?? current price of a ruby bulb approx 900? as I have read and seen advertised here at Crutchfield for 999.00

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-nk3WPhd95Vq/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=158LMPH400

That is a pretty hefty price for a bulb that has a pretty short lifespan as reported by owners of current units.
That is my .02 FWIW

 

[TABCON]

Howie ,sorry you have had a such a bad experience with sony...really I am.

But...I seriously doubt the price of Ruby replacement bulbs will last so long. I would imagine they would go down with the price of the projector in time. The price of the Ruby has already gone from 10k to 7.5k, so I would think the bulb will follow suit.

At least I would hope so. Do you have any info otherwise?

Tabcon

 

[howie85]

Tabcon, I can only go on what past history has shown. From my personal searches and such it seems that the acessories for most pj change in price much less than the pj itself. I have been reading all kinds of different opinions on the Ruby from the AVS mostly and when some on the AVS have pointed out other sources. If you have been to the AVS forums there are some over there who can be quite critical on any particular type of product they do not like and others who think some things are as essential as mothers milk. You have to sort through all them and come to your own conclusions. What I have concluded is that the pq of the Ruby is quite good and most consider it to be top dog as of now in that respect. Most also consider it to be on the dim side and in need of significant light control for optimum performance. Alan from avs stated specifically in a thread about getting more light from the ruby that

Everyone praises the Canon for its brightness and says Sony needs to take a lesson from Canon. The Sony is actually very bright but its the iris thats clamping down and preventing the light from getting through the lens. The 400 watt bulb is putting out plenty of light.
I now have 250 hours on my bulb and at factory setting my image is very dim. With this little tweak its a light canon and I cannot imagine this tweak with a new bulb, it would burn a hole in my screen.
If the iris is to be used I think a bulb at least 800 watts would be needed to overcome some of the short comings. There is currently no headroom to turn down the contrast to eliminate the brightness compression because the image is already to dim. Turning down the contrast further and you can no longer comfortably see the image and the contrast also suffers. A brighter bulb would give us this needed headroom when using the projector in auto iris mode.
I hope Sony will give us something supercharged next generation.

you can read it here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=655111&highlight=ruby
I would submit that 250 hours seems to be not that many hours to be so dim that they are altering internal parameters to get more light out of the machine. Im not suggesting to buy or not buy this unit just to be informed of the tradoffs of this particular unit. I understand that light output of any pj will diminish as the bulb gets more hours but the guys over at AVS have worked with many many projectors some perhaps hundreds going back many years in pj technology. I do not consider any one persons opinion as gospel but when that many with that much experience are saying the same thing? I think that needs to be taken into consideration. If the light output was diminishing at a normal rate I would think it would be a non issue and for sure not get as much attention as it seems to be getting. I would suggest looking at this thread about bulb life and what others are getting to get a small sample of comparision. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18943&highlight=bulb+life
I considered the Ruby when I was looking into projectors. I really like what people were saying about the pq. I personally viewed the qualia television sxrd at a home show and there is one on display locally at a custom installers showroom. The picture is very good, but that is a television so i do not know how that compares to the projector. I can say that as good as it was in a side by side with the other sony products there I did not think it was THAT much better. In my searching I looked at some Pioneer Elite plasma panels which in my opinion were probably consistantly better than any plasma I saw with most any source. They are not 1080p. The new rp televisions that are using single chip 1080p dlp seem to be sensitive to rapid motion to some degree as were some of the earlier 720 dlp rp televisions. It a subjective opinion on what I like and was looking for in a display.
I was origionally only recounting my personal experience with sony not to make a case against any of their products. I have to admit im a bit picky about pq. The problems I was having with my set were not noticable to most unless I pointed them out but once you know they are there....Im sure you know how that goes. There are shortcomings with any thing most people can think of. We have not achieved Video Nirvana just yet.. It all comes down to what you like in the end. There are a lot of happy ruby owners out there.

 

[TABCON]

Thanks Howie, really excellent information. Thanks for taking the time to put it all together.

I spoke with David (Alan's partner) at the AV Science store about the Ruby. Actually, David has a Ruby in his home theatre and a Pioneer Elite AV59DVI dvd player. The same exact player that I have. I told him what my needs were for my AV room and he said he would definitely spec the Ruby for me.
For the price, I think it's a good deal that will carry my system into the future for a while. David said he would also calibrate the unit prior to shipping.

I've taken as much time as I can to decide on a projector, but you're absolutely right, there are so many opinions out there that eventually you just have to go with your gut. My gut says Ruby, but who knows what it will say 6 months from now...lol.

Tabcon

 

[westcott]

To keep this discussion productive, I have tried to track down any information related to when, if ever, any 1080p content will be released.

Here is a link or two two an interview between Audioholics and Sage Schreiner, HD DVD Program Manager at Microsoft designer at Microsoft for HD DVD.

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CEStechnology/HDDVDCESinterview.php

It seems no one is willing to commit to 1080p content yet. I would love for someone to point me somewhere with updated information.

It seems Mr. Scrhreiner tried to blame HDMI for the delays of HD DVD but was quickly corrected by the President of the HDMI organization.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/1080pHDDVDHDMIresponse.php

I think you're confusing upscaling and de-interlacing. You should try to read a little bit about both terms... Then think again about what you just said.

I should have use a more general term like video processing. It would take a whole paragraph to correctly describe everything video processing does to a signal. I will be more careful in the future.

 

[ReVuR]

Yes, it's ridiculous for the price they ask for. I've seen all the good projectors out there, and the Sony Ruby VPL-VW100 will give you a better picture quality for 1/2 the price, and will take 1080i/p directly.

And it's a real native 1080 projector. With Blu-Ray players at 1080p, why downscale everything at 720p?

I have a Ruby since 4 months already, and I already use real 1080i sources and still can't believe how good that projector is.

3 chips, native 1080p, 15000:1 CR measured (not false advertizing...), can accept 1080p directly, 21 db (almost silent), motorized lens shift and focus...

For the price of the Sim2, go buy the Sony Ruby with an external video processor using the Realta HQV or Gennum VXP chips (for true inverse telecine and per-pixel motion adaptive de-interlacing...). And you will probably have some spare change left to buy another bulb for the Ruby... And the better picture quality will also be a "bonus"...

Without debating the contrast issue, the Ruby, is an excellent projector, and certainly, we all want 1080p eventually...

I have seen the Ruby several times at shows, under Sony's idea of optimum conditions, and have yet to see it produce an image as good as the Sim2 C3X... The Sim2 has a depth to it the Sony can't match, and every time, has blacker blacks... and better shadow detail... It wasn't surprising that Sony like to show cartoons alot - primarily Robots (or whatever its called) with Robin Williams... but I did see movie footage as well.

I've recently reviewed the Sim2, and have just shipped back InFocus's 777 to them, and will be posting that review in the next 4-5 days. I am still patiently awaiting a Ruby to review. And in fairness, until I see it under my conditions (as I have the others), I'm still going by trade show comparisons...

I like LCOS like Sony's SXRD, or JVC's D-ILA, especially in that the pixels are far less visible than even DLP, but still waiting to see them to match DLP in several areas.

The Sony is definitely a great value, but what the world really needs is a 1080p C3X - IMHO. Probably have to wait another year...

 

[ReVuR]

BTW, I had a famous ISF calibrator at my place a couple of weeks ago, and he said the combo Ruby + Gennum VXP scaler was the best video chain he has seen south of 30K$ projectors, including all the 3 chip DLPs 720p, and high-end CRTs he did calibrate and install also...Just like you... He was really surprised by the performance of the Ruby, particularly after reading "others" opinion about the Ruby on the nets (just like you), and particularly on AVS...

That sounds about right... Of course those $30K 720p 3 chips, of a half year ago, are now the $14999 InFocus 777, Sim2's C3X Lite (1500 lumens) at $15K, and the C3X at $20K... (and a few others) Basically most of the $30K projectors we all admired at CEDIA and before are now $15K to $20K... Sounds like the famous calibrator indicates that the Ruby is the next best thing, and at about $10-$12K with the Gennum, that would be about right - $3K- $7K below the best.... for the next best... not a bad deal at all.

But it really is a shame that the 3 chip units aren't 1080p... waiting is so hard... -art

 

[howie85]

777

ReVuR,
I would be interested to hear your comments on the 777. My research tells me that the new version 777 and the sim compare very close to each other in pq, with the options and looks being the main factors between them.

 

[howie85]

Oh yea almost forgot the origional question. Spending 16k on a pj that makes you happy? I guess it depends on the value of that to you personally. There are much more expensive pj out there. Anyway the choices you had mentioned were not 16k anyway.. Good luck with your Ruby.