Is it worth upgrading crossovers

[Vil]

Hi folks, I’m new to this forum. Just wondering how much can an upgrade of crossover change the way the speaker sounds. I mean if you just replace cheap capacitors and resistors for higher quality ones.

 

[lovinthehd]

More likely you'll screw it up. If the crossover is functioning correctly what would you be "improving" on?

 

[Verdinut]

If the crossover has electrolytic capacitors, over the years their value changes and that obviously will modify the designed filter frequencies to a certain extent. IMO, replacing them with reasonably priced Solen or Parts-Express own brand polypropylene caps will bring it back to its original performance. Several years ago, I replaced electrolytic caps on KEF speakers for a friend, and we could hear the improvement in the overall sound.

As for the resistors, there would be no audible difference in replacing them.

 

[Vil]

Thanks for the info, just what I wanted to hear. I accidentally ran into this youtube video, where this guy strips brand new speakers and upgrades them for a considerable fee into something much better. He also mentions, crossovers often being build cheaply in China getting replaced with quality components can dramaticaly change the sound of existing speaker.
Just wanted to know general opinion.

 

[Swerd]

Hi folks, I’m new to this forum. Just wondering how much can an upgrade of crossover change the way the speaker sounds.

First of all, welcome to AudioHolics

Answering your first question depends on the crossover design that was originally in the speaker. If the design is good, or good enough, there is no benefit from a new or different design. If not, a complete redesign could make a real improvement.

… I mean if you just replace cheap capacitors and resistors for higher quality ones.

No. Just replacing old crossover components with new, more expensive ones, will not make any difference. If the original design was actually good, and one or several capacitors have drifted out of spec, or failed outright, replacing the old caps should help.

Don't waste any money on new or 'high quality' resistors, unless the existing resistors have completely failed.

But if the original design was not adequate, as is the case for many older speakers, replacing the capacitors and resistors while keeping the poor design, will not convert it into a good design.

There is a widespread notion that manufacturing materials, as well as prices, of crossover components make an audible difference in a speaker's overall sound quality. This is an unfortunate myth, and it has been clearly demonstrated to be false.

Crossover design matters. Crossover parts that are out of spec matter. But crossover part materials don't matter. This is exactly like the false myth that speaker cable materials, such as silver wire with Teflon insulation, allow better sound quality than standard copper wires with PVC insulation.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the info, just what I wanted to hear. I accidentally ran into this youtube video, where this guy strips brand new speakers and upgrades them for a considerable fee into something much better. He also mentions, crossovers often being build cheaply in China getting replaced with quality components can dramaticaly change the sound of existing speaker.
Just wanted to know general opinion.

We do have a member here (Dennis Murphy), who does operate a speaker company (Philharmonic Audio) and is a very good crossover designer (designs them for another speaker maker, Salk, too) and he has sold certain modified speakers/kits (from Pioneer and Dayton particularly) but otherwise can't think of anyone doing this that I'd bother with. Curious, did the video show the measurements before and after or even touch on the subject? Or was everything based on what he "heard"?

 

[Vil]

It's called GR-research. Yes he provides measurements before and after. I never knew anything about it before. Tell you the truth, I have recently bought bluesound powernode with a pair of Dali Oberon3 speakers. I really love the sound in my smallish room but then when I saw the video of this guy, it put a thought into my mind...perhaps they can be improved even better but I think now it would be madness. If anything, I'm thinking of extending the bass by adding a small active sub. I'm quite handy, love working with wood and have electrical background, so some diy plan would be all I need plus any advice I could get from this site.

 

[lovinthehd]

Danny is a bit of a huckster IMO. His measurements aren't quite what they're made out to be either. The reviews of his gear on audiosciencereview.com are interesting, as well as the threads on him/GR. Has some skills, but his mods/wires stuff, meh. He's been discussed before https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=gr+research+site:audioholics.com&atb=v136-1&ia=web

Adding a sub is good. Diy can be very good (what I do, and still don't consider myself handy with wood, used subs as a learning experience). Bass management you have already?

 

[Vil]

Sorry, not sure if I understand the question. What do you mean if I have bass management? This powernode amp has an option for bass and treble adjustment, if that’s what you mean but I find it working best at neutral positions.

 

[Swerd]

Sorry, not sure if I understand the question. What do you mean if I have bass management? This powernode amp has an option for bass and treble adjustment, if that’s what you mean but I find it working best at neutral positions.

No, it isn't bass and treble adjustment, as in the usual tone controls.

Audio/Video receivers (AVRs) have a method to incorporate a sub-woofer into a speaker system. The AVR can create a low-pass filter for an external sub-woofer, and a high-pass filter for the other speakers. In these filters, the owner selects crossover frequencies and crossover slopes, allowing some customization. It all works in the digital processing section of an AVR, and is superior to any older method that I've witnessed. As a verbal shortcut, we refer to this as 'bass management'.

There might be a few 2-channel receivers with bass management, but they usually offer less flexibility than in AVRs. And most 2-channel receivers lack any digital processing.

Some of the speaker kits GR Research sells are decent. On the other hand, the crossover upgrade kits and overpriced crossover components are a waste of money, or worse.

 

[highfigh]

Hi folks, I’m new to this forum. Just wondering how much can an upgrade of crossover change the way the speaker sounds. I mean if you just replace cheap capacitors and resistors for higher quality ones.

If you're willing and able to do the testing/evaluation and investment for several versions, go ahead.

What are the speakers you're asking about?

The reason those parts are inexpensive is because the super-special ones aren't so much better that the manufacturer is willing to A) raise the selling price of their products or B) absorb the increased cost. Then, there's the question of "Who'll hear the difference". If reliability has become a problem, the crossover should be re-designed but otherwise, you need to look at the other components and determine if they're really so special that everything else would make a large difference if those things were improved.

Oh, changing the caps & resistors can definitely make a difference but it's not likely to do what you have read- there's a whole lot of misinformation online about replacing components and it's generally BS. There's a whole market for old audio equipment that has been 'recapped', with stunning results and Audio Karma is a big place for that- they have members who love brands that were known as 'crap' when they were still in business and were NEVER considered as anything but low-end or mid-Fi, at best. I have even seen people who recapped speakers that had cone or phenolic ring tweeters write that they could hear things that were missing, the new caps 'lifted a veil' and make other ridiculous claims but it was all BS.

 

[Vil]

No, it isn't bass and treble adjustment, as in the usual tone controls.

Audio/Video receivers (AVRs) have a method to incorporate a sub-woofer into a speaker system. The AVR can create a low-pass filter for an external sub-woofer, and a high-pass filter for the other speakers. In these filters, the owner selects crossover frequencies and crossover slopes, allowing some customization. It all works in the digital processing section of an AVR, and is superior to any older method that I've witnessed. As a verbal shortcut, we refer to this as 'bass management'.

There might be a few 2-channel receivers with bass management, but they usually offer less flexibility than in AVRs. And most 2-channel receivers lack any digital processing.

Some of the speaker kits GR Research sells are decent. On the other hand, the crossover upgrade kits and overpriced crossover components are a waste of money, or worse.

Aaah ok. This streaming device (bluesound powernode) has dedicated output for sub

 

[Vil]

If you're willing and able to do the testing/evaluation and investment for several versions, go ahead.

What are the speakers you're asking about?

The reason those parts are inexpensive is because the super-special ones aren't so much better that the manufacturer is willing to A) raise the selling price of their products or B) absorb the increased cost. Then, there's the question of "Who'll hear the difference". If reliability has become a problem, the crossover should be re-designed but otherwise, you need to look at the other components and determine if they're really so special that everything else would make a large difference if those things were improved.

Oh, changing the caps & resistors can definitely make a difference but it's not likely to do what you have read- there's a whole lot of misinformation online about replacing components and it's generally BS. There's a whole market for old audio equipment that has been 'recapped', with stunning results and Audio Karma is a big place for that- they have members who love brands that were known as 'crap' when they were still in business and were NEVER considered as anything but low-end or mid-Fi, at best. I have even seen people who recapped speakers that had cone or phenolic ring tweeters write that they could hear things that were missing, the new caps 'lifted a veil' and make other ridiculous claims but it was all BS.

Thanks for the info, I have since changed my mind and won’t tamper with what’s working. The speakers are brand new Dali Oberon 3. I will more than likely add subwoofer to get some extension on bass. Thinking building one.

 

[lovinthehd]

Aaah ok. This streaming device (bluesound powernode) has dedicated output for sub

Dedicated output for a sub is fairly meaningless in terms of bass management....in 2ch gear it usually doesn't exist (the bass management part....sometimes the sub pre-out might be limited, but that's about it)

 

[Vil]

Dedicated output for a sub is fairly meaningless in terms of bass management....in 2ch gear it usually doesn't exist (the bass management part....sometimes the sub pre-out might be limited, but that's about it)

Hmm, I’m not really sure if I understand this. I know for fact, few have similar set up with sub plugged in and good results. I noticed, most active subs these days have controllers for crossovers…is that what you call bass management? Sorry for asking silly questions.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hmm, I’m not really sure if I understand this. I know for fact, few have similar set up with sub plugged in and good results. I noticed, most active subs these days have controllers for crossovers…is that what you call bass management? Sorry for asking silly questions.

In the case of the Bluesound Powernode looking at this manual, which indicates use of the sub pre-out does have an automatic 80hz crossover applied, but apparently no choice in crossover point. So this particular unit isn't bad but many 2ch units only have a sub pre-out, often not even limited (i.e. full range).

Most active subs only have a low pass filter on board.

Bass management is distributing bass from various channels to a sub, with usually a choice of various crossover points.

 

[Swerd]

Hmm, I’m not really sure if I understand this. I know for fact, few have similar set up with sub plugged in and good results. I noticed, most active subs these days have controllers for crossovers…is that what you call bass management? Sorry for asking silly questions.

Your questions are good – certainly not silly. I finally looked up what a Bluesound Powernode is, and I think I now understand why you're asking about bass management. You probably have never owned or dealt with an audio video receiver (AVR).

As AVRs developed in the late 1990s and early 2000 years, bass management was something new. Previously, integrating sub-woofers with a typical stereo system was difficult to do well. It required a lot of trial & error as well as some luck. It was not a simple problem, and even understanding what the problem was could be difficult.

AVRs are multi-channel audio receivers, that are also digital computers dedicated to operating home audio from simple stereo set ups to multi-channel audio from digital movies. Sub-woofers, controlled by the digital processing system within the AVR, allowed a completely different and more effective way to integrate sub-woofer(s) into a speaker set-up. If you've haven't owned an AVR and have never gone through the set-up process, the concept of bass management can be obscure.

I don't think you're going to go out and replace your Powernode with an AVR. It at least provides a simplified way to hook up a sub-woofer. It may not be optimal, but it's better than most other simple stereo receivers or integrated amps. Most any AVR will provide quite a lot more flexibility, and choices, in integrating a sub-woofer. At first glance this may seem much too elaborate a process – only for hardcore hobbyists – but it has been proven over the years to work well and is now considered necessary.

Try reading this overview on what bass management is and can do:

AV Receiver Bass Management Basics – Settings Made Simple

This guide is designed to address the numerous questions we've received from new home theater owners on setting up their loudspeakers and AV receiver bass management settings. Get good bass here.

www.audioholics.com

 

[henry67]

Upgrading crossover components in a speaker can potentially change the way speaker sounds, but the extent of the change will depend on number of factors, including the specific components used in the upgrade and the overall design of the speaker.

 

[adaktug]

Hi folks, I’m new to this forum. Just wondering how much can an upgrade of crossover change the way the speaker sounds. I mean if you just replace cheap capacitors and resistors for higher quality ones.

Suggest stop using crossover circuits and switch to non-crossover circuits.
Capacitors and inductors malign the audio signals.
Attached is information that could be of help.
Curtis Larson
Audio professional
Rosveta LLC

 

[TLS Guy]

Suggest stop using crossover circuits and switch to non-crossover circuits.
Capacitors and inductors malign the audio signals.
Attached is information that could be of help.
Curtis Larson
Audio professional
Rosveta LLC

And the full moon is not for a couple of days. This chap is out early.