Is it time to Ditch Vinyl?

[crazyfingers]

How are you converting the analog to digital particularly in this case?

What I did in the past and what I plan to do again is plug the turntable into the preamp and from the pre-outs, plug them into the 3.5 audio-in jack on the Notebook and record it with Audacity. It's the Audacity settings I need to most figure out to be sure I'm recording at the best quality and then saving as FLAC or ALAC*.

* I'm waiting for my iPod Classic to finally die and then I'll ditch everything Apple. But the NAD can play ALACs so I don't need to get all new stuff but I'd like to migrate to FLAC and away from ALAC. Typical Apple doesn't do FLAC. Can't wait to ditch iTunes for something that does FLAC and does album art in a more conventional way.

 

[lovinthehd]

What I did in the past and what I plan to do again is plug the turntable into the preamp and from the pre-outs, plug them into the 3.5 audio-in jack on the Notebook and record it with Audacity. It's the Audacity settings I need to most figure out to be sure I'm recording at the best quality and then saving as FLAC or ALAC*.

* I'm waiting for my iPod Classic to finally die and then I'll ditch everything Apple. But the NAD can play ALACs so I don't need to get all new stuff but I'd like to migrate to FLAC and away from ALAC. Typical Apple doesn't do FLAC. Can't wait to ditch iTunes for something that does FLAC and does album art in a more conventional way.

Was curious if you had a tt that could provide digital output, or a phono stage that could. I'm not even sure my laptop has analog ins....but I have an ART Phono Plus (with digital output) for such....altho I found generally the process is too time consuming and it's just easier to play the vinyl if I want that particular record

 

[TLS Guy]

True. But tape hiss never bothered me. With the Nak's I don't recall noticing especially since I used DBX noise reduction on all of my tapes except those that I made for others. The DBX was great. It compressed the dynamic range on the tape when recording and re-expanded it on playback. It gave me a lot dynamic range for a tape also.

I have to say, that very few discs in my quite large collection of LPs have surface noise and pops. Quite a few play right through without a pop or click. Surface noise is not a problem.
The LP is actually a true Hi-Fi medium, cassette tape is relatively low Fi.
The problem is high frequency tape saturation. Even with the best magnetic cassette tapes, you can only get a flat frequency response at -20 db. modulation. You can not get close to a flat response at full 0 db. modulation, because of tape saturation.

To get a flat frequency response at 0 db. modulation takes a very high quality 1/4" tape running at 15 ips, on a good 1/2 track machine. I know as I set up and calibrate my machines, and have certified test tapes to do it. So, for my radio broadcasts I had to run my 1/2 track machines at 15 ips. That got through a 10 1/2 inch reel of high quality master tape every 30 minutes, even back in the day, the cost was about $30.00 a reel, and that was buying the tape in pancakes, and putting the reels together.

My cassette machines were the best available. I have a NAK, and a TEAC Z2000 mastering quality cassette deck. That has Dolby B,C and dbx. II. That takes care of hiss, but only slightly improves the HF tape saturation. The biggest reduction is from dbx II but you can really only play the tapes back on the same machine, as frequency response errors between record and playback are doubled.

So I have never made digital copies of my LPs either. Actually I'm playing an LP now and it is at least half way though the first side, and there has not been one click so far.

The reasons that my surfaces a largely silent is that most of my collection are European pressings and not US pressings. I don't touch the playing surface. I take the disc out and play it right away, and then return it to the sleeve and jacket right away, and place the sleeve in the jacket at 90 degrees.

I follow the precepts of the late Cecil E. Watts. He did a lot of dedicated research on LP reproduction, especially electron microscopic studies. He came up with his famous Cecil E. Watts dust bug. This has bristles and a plush pad of ideal characteristics to pull dust from the grooves. I use the Dust Bu with every playing. I have NEVER used liquid cleaners and always used the Dust Bug dry.

One unexpected bonus of my turntables, is that they seem to be the best monetary investment I have ever made. There is an increasing demand for good vintage turntables, especially my selections, which include Garrard and Thorens turntables. I have a Decca ffss H4E on a Decca pro arm and I have a standard arm in storage. This is on a Garrard 301 I have two SME series three arms both with Shure V 15 xmr cartridges. I have an SME series II improved arm with a Shure V 15 xmr. this is on a Garrard 301. I have a Thorens TD 125 MK II. This has one of the SME series III arms. The other SME series III arm is on a Thorens TD 150. I also have a Decca Mk II ffss 78 head. I have a Decca London cartridge not currently mounted. I was looking at completed sale prices recently and in this current vogue, my turntable collection is now conservatively worth around 20K. That was never my intent to have these as investments. That is just how it seems to have turned out. I did pick what are now the most sought after items. I can take a modicum of credit for that. I will have to make the family get what it is worth after my death, or if I end up in care. Right now I take great pleasure and pride in this collection of turntables, arms and cartridges and have no plans to part with any of it.

Garrard 301 Decca H4E LP Quad 22 tube preamp.

Decca MK II 78 head,

Thorens TD 150 SME series III Shure V 15 xmr.

Pre amp is Quad 44.

Garrard 301 SME series II improved Shure V15 xmr.

Pre-amp is Quad 34.

Thorens TD 125 MK II SME series III with Shure V 15 xmr.

Pre-amp is Quad 34.

TEAC Z2000, Revox A 77 MK III, Revox A77 MK IV. Dolby B noise reduction system and dbx II noise reduction system for both tape and LP disc. The LPs must be dbx encoded to use the decoder.

I'm now on my second LP this evening and so far only one pop. If you came in the room you would think it was a CD playing.

 

[Bucknekked]

Quick quiz. Does this photo promote a feeling of:

1 Nostalgia or
2: Nausea

I found mine a few months ago at my parent's house. Around the time I dug out the albums and the turntable.

View attachment 61561

oh Wow ! I had that exact same setup. Used it all the time. Glad I don't have to do that anymore.
My vinyl now is all new 80g or better vinyl and I don't let it get dirty or dusty or drop the needle anywhere except the edge. I don't have a lot of new vinyl but once you start it is hard to stop buying it.

Good luck with your project. There are lots of folks here who can guide you through getting a recording you made loaded up in to a post. My favorite way to is simply make a commonly shareable file (like a 256K MP3) and load it up on to a Google Drive. Make that MP3 publicly shareable and then just paste the link in to a post. Ezy Peazy.
Lots of ways to do it. I am sure folks will chime in with help if you need it.
There are better recording formats than MP3 for sure. I only use MP3 to share in situations like this one.

 

[TLS Guy]

The UK press this morning is featuring the return of the cassette tape. When I do an Internet search I see there are pages about it.

Finding cassette players in good shape will be tough. Old tapes deteriorate over time. I guess the National Audio company is manufacturing three grades of cassette tapes. Then the question becomes, are there high speed duplicators still around?

I think this is all getting rather silly, and I wonder how long this craze will last.

I think the executives in the entertainment industry need to ask themselves some tough questions. It seems to me that what is being offered to the public is not to a large segment of the public's liking.

 

[crazyfingers]

The UK press this morning is featuring the return of the cassette tape. When I do an Internet search I see there are pages about it.

Finding cassette players in good shape will be tough. Old tapes deteriorate over time. I guess the National Audio company is manufacturing three grades of cassette tapes. Then the question becomes, are there high speed duplicators still around?

I think this is all getting rather silly, and I wonder how long this craze will last.

I think the executives in the entertainment industry need to ask themselves some tough questions. It seems to me that what is being offered to the public is not to a large segment of the public's liking.

I agree with you. What would be the point of cassettes coming back?

Vinyl I get. Many people believe that it provides the best sound quality if pressed well and I'd probably agree, if great care is taken to keep them in next to perfect condition. And there is an intimacy with vinyl, the holding of the music, the process of playing them, the liner notes and artwork that you don't get with other mediums. Perhaps CD but I need a magnifying glass to read anything that comes with a CD. You can see the music on the disc even if you can't read the groves.

Back in their day, cassette served the purpose of mobility and perserving a vinyl by copying it and playing the cassette as I did. But they can't be better than the vinyl. And they don't hold much music. There is no advantage either objectively or subjectively of a cassette over digital music, either in a living room or on the move.

 

[lovinthehd]

I agree with you. What would be the point of cassettes coming back?

Vinyl I get. Many people believe that it provides the best sound quality if pressed well and I'd probably agree, if great care is taken to keep them in next to perfect condition. And there is an intimacy with vinyl, the holding of the music, the process of playing them, the liner notes and artwork that you don't get with other mediums. Perhaps CD but I need a magnifying glass to read anything that comes with a CD. You can see the music on the disc even if you can't read the groves.

Back in their day, cassette served the purpose of mobility and perserving a vinyl by copying it and playing the cassette as I did. But they can't be better than the vinyl. And they don't hold much music. There is no advantage either objectively or subjectively of a cassette over digital music, either in a living room or on the move.

I've seen several posts in various audio groups about the tactile aspect of cds; the handling of the discs, the artwork, liner notes, etc. too. I imagine cassettes might bring that same kind of nostalgia as vinyl/cds do to some? Once cds became as portable as cassettes I ditched cassettes myself, and now with thumb drives, don't bother with discs much even in the car.

 

[crazyfingers]

I've seen several posts in various audio groups about the tactile aspect of cds; the handling of the discs, the artwork, liner notes, etc. too. I imagine cassettes might bring that same kind of nostalgia as vinyl/cds do to some? Once cds became as portable as cassettes I ditched cassettes myself, and now with thumb drives, don't bother with discs much even in the car.

Yup. I've got all of my music on a USB stick in the car. My car can only play music up to about 320kbps so I keep a backup copy where all the ALACs and FLACs have been reduced to below 320. It's not like you can hear the difference in the car anyway.

I've observed that many car infotainment systems are downright stupid when compared to a reasonable "Mp3" player. Mine would play the songs of Dark Side of the Moon in alphabetical order if I didn't reindex. But drivesort.exe is excellent and quick. I reindex the fat file whenever I add something new but still it's a whole lot better than flipping discs or remembering to bring the music player everywhere. The stick just stays there in the car always ready.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yup. I've got all of my music on a USB stick in the car. My car can only play music up to about 320kbps so I keep a backup copy where all the ALACs and FLACs have been reduced to below 320. It's not like you can hear the difference in the car anyway.

I've observed that many car infotainment systems are downright stupid when compared to a reasonable "Mp3" player. Mine would play the songs of Dark Side of the Moon in alphabetical order if I didn't reindex. But drivesort.exe is excellent and quick. I reindex the fat file whenever I add something new but still it's a whole lot better than flipping discs or remembering to bring the music player everywhere. The stick just stays there in the car always ready.

I've not had that issue in the car about alphabetic order but have some files I'd like to reorder for other gear/use, wasn't aware about the sort software, thanks. My car player can't handle flac so I do use mp3 rather than wav files to save space (and it makes no difference in that environment as you note).

 

[MrBoat]

For loud playback, I prefer digital. Otherwise, I'd have to have some extreme and expensive isolation strategies, or locate the TT into another room. Also, they'd have to increase the size of the disk to around 14-16" to fit the bass tracks on, or less songs. I love the vinyl I have, but prefer CD or streaming most of the time other than for original classics that were obviously tailored for vinyl.

What kept me from CD in the car back in the day was that the anti-skip tech was not great. I used to instead have to use a discman with a cassette adapter and nestle the thing on a folded towel or something to keep it from pissing me off while it struggled to get thru a song in one pass.

Cassette tapes used to get destroyed in the heat and even indoors, were just too much of a consumable by nature and I didn't have the cash or will to keep buying them over and over. I listen to music for hours every day. Digital takes all the wear and tear out of the equation and my music is seemingly forever preserved by it.

The same 70 or so LPs I have had forever I still prefer in this format, especially since they have been restored and nobody else cares to get near them anymore so there is no questionable treatment by others. But I don't think about it until I actually go to play them back occasionally and that profound and ingrained familiarity lets me know why I keep them. My 30 year old son was really intrigued by the records when I showed him how it all worked here a year or so ago, but was apprehensive about wanting to use it.

 

[Eppie]

Well I'm going to take your challenge, which I think is timely.

I have to say that I was taken up short this week in the Twin Cities about all this. The news papers and TV news have been all of a buzz about a 2 million dollar plant to press 23 million vinyl discs a year that has just opened in Osseo MN, just outside the Northwest Twin Cities Metro.

This has been built by Copycat records, based in the suburb of Plymouth in the Northwest Metro. They manufacture CDs, DVDs and Blu Ray discs. According to their vinyl plant manager interviewed on news bulletins, vinyl disc production now exceeds all digital disc production on a world wide basis. They say that their demand for digital disc production is in decline, and that getting into vinyl disc production was an imperative.

Now last time I looked there were about two or three vinyl disc vendors in the Twin Cities metro, all of them looking to be somewhat grungy unwashed outfits. Now, on my research I find there are no less then 20 serious vendors of vinyl records in the Twin Cities Metro. Not only that but more then a few offer turntables, cartridges, turntable set up and stylus replacement services.

So the question to me becomes why? A change on this scale can not come about just form audiophoolery and digital phobia.

This suggests to me that the leaders of the audio and AV industry have made some major misjudgments.

So I hope members really look at this thread and think about the issues this raises.

Back when vinyl was king almost every home had an audio system. In the early years of the CD this remained constant.

Then the audiophhools stated to question the validity of digital audio, error correction and daft pictures of "staircase" waves, and totally misunderstanding dither. The fact is that the audio CD is more then adequate. Its FR is wide enough, and it dynamic range wide enough for all but a minute body of work, largely unheard and unknown by the vast majority of the general public.

The next issue is streaming. In my view this is not handy, especially for presenting classical music, and it has often been presented with less than stellar digital compression. Sure there are high res streams, but it all get complicated. It takes skill to properly download a CD. Even if you do, getting it to play seamlessly often presents a challenge.

Worse we have outfits like Apple Music where you have to subscribe to Apple TV to get decent quality. I can tell you that the quality from apps not on that device is a disgrace. There is no need to this sort of gratuitous corporate abuse.

I think the next issue is complexity.

Wrongly I believe the industry has concentrated on surround audio systems and codecs to the neglect of two channel audio. I think this has been a massive miscalculation.

People do not want the clutter of all of this including multiple speakers in most homes. History shows they tolerate two channel systems quite well.

I would also venture to state that that good two channel bests less good multichannel by a big margin. So most, including probably most members here, would be far better off putting the same dollars into a two channel system rather than 5 to 11 channels. Also I remain unconvinced that multichannel audio has any place at all in the vast majority of homes. I personally would not dream of putting one in a room that was not custom for the purpose. I think most of the public intuitively know this.

It tells me that the industry need to make a massive reinvestment in two channel audio, and I admit that these days it should be 2.1.

Today, I listened to a live concert from the BPO in our in wall great room system. I listened in 2.1. It was absolutely superb, and I could listen easily at concert hall levels without distress.
I can see why my wife likes that system so much. Yes, she really takes ownership of that rig, and thanks me for it continuously. In addition I have found that it really does not matter whether you use it in 2.1 or 3.1 mode. There really is no significant difference.

In that system and our family room system, the center image does NOT collapse outside the center spot. Not at all. I know I will get push back from Shady here, but I can assure the center image does not collapse even wide of the right and left speakers. This confirms my strong view that most need better speakers and NOT MORE speakers.

To cut this long story short, I think this vinyl revival is actually a reaction and protest to audio in the home going way off the rails in the last 20 years.

One of the YouTube channels that I follow is PresentDayProduction from the U.K., a mixing and mastering studio. You might find a couple of things interesting. One is their custom in house solution for studio monitors. They wanted something with high quality drivers but more flexible and less expensive than the typical ATC monitor. They developed an active 3-way monitor with programmable DSP that allows them to offer two versions with different quality drivers and ported & non-ported options (an upgradable monitor).

The other is that they mention in this video that Apple is rumoured to be planning that all new music uploads will be required to have Dolby ATMOS tracks. While this studio does not yet create ATMOS mixes, their impression is that ATMOS music is not a fad but more of a future trend. Many engineers they have spoken with also seem to prefer downmixing the ATMOS tracks to stereo rather than the other way around.

 

[TLS Guy]

One of the YouTube channels that I follow is PresentDayProduction from the U.K., a mixing and mastering studio. You might find a couple of things interesting. One is their custom in house solution for studio monitors. They wanted something with high quality drivers but more flexible and less expensive than the typical ATC monitor. They developed an active 3-way monitor with programmable DSP that allows them to offer two versions with different quality drivers and ported & non-ported options (an upgradable monitor).

The other is that they mention in this video that Apple is rumoured to be planning that all new music uploads will be required to have Dolby ATMOS tracks. While this studio does not yet create ATMOS mixes, their impression is that ATMOS music is not a fad but more of a future trend. Many engineers they have spoken with also seem to prefer downmixing the ATMOS tracks to stereo rather than the other way around.

I think there are lot of people at Apple who good benefit from brain transplants. I think there are some big time nutters in that outfit.

 

[Squishman]

I will not dump my record collection. There are discs never transferred to CD. The discs are in good condition and in many cases give quality as good as CD. In any event a lot of those recordings come from a time when recording engineers where justly renowned professionals who really knew their craft.

I don't buy new vinyl, but I still enjoy spinning it.

Quite honestly I will feel bereaved if I parted with these turntables.

I have heard my own LP's on TLS Guy's system and I can tell you it is exquisite! I brought over some Kinks ("Lola Vs Powerman and the Moneygoround"), Dylan (Oh Mercy), Paul Simon ("There Goes Rhymin' Simon") and some Smokey Robison (Tears of a Clown in mono). I couple others that I cannot remember. If I remember correctly, when he put on the Kinks record and I told him it was a rock and roll track (Rats), I believe the doctor said something like "oh boy". ha.

 

[Squishman]

Quick quiz. Does this photo promote a feeling of:

1 Nostalgia or
2: Nausea

I found mine a few months ago at my parent's house. Around the time I dug out the albums and the turntable.

View attachment 61561

I still have one of those, but I clean my records with a Vinyl Vac system and use a carbon fiber brush before and after each play. I use the Discwasher only in a pinch.

 

[unreceivedogma]

I started this hobby when I bought my first LP when I was 10 in 1964 and when I built my first Dyna Stereo70 when I was 14 in 1968.

My current system can be found here: https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/about

My website neglects to say that I have a Rega Planet CD player. That is because I have only 400+ CDs, whereas since I was 10, I have built up a collection of 6,000+ LPs. It also neglects to specify the interconnecting cables that I use. Please rest assured that the system is in fact connected with cables.

When guests listen to my audio system in my semi-anechoic room for the first time, they are ... stunned is the best word, though there are others that are more colorful and equally positive. Recently, someone said that "I am hearing music for the first time!". Another said that "This is BETTER than being there!". They ask to come back, repeatedly.

While I do have CDs for those recordings that are unavailable on vinyl, clearly I am pleased with my vinyl setup.

I am not terribly pleased with the three choices offered above. Imho everyone hears differently, and so I am going to argue for a 4th choice: whether or not analog is better than digital is subjective and up to the listener. It is a debate that - like tube v solid state - has yet to be settled. I find the author - Jerry Del Colliano - to be presumptively arrogant.

However, to the extent that I have personal anecdotal evidence that analog is better, I cite the following experience: I used to be a fan of Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab (MFSL). About 10-15 years ago, I noticed a subtle but distinct decline in sound quality. After 3 purchases in a row where I could hear this decline, I decided that it wasn't just a one-off lemon, that instead something systemic must have changed in their quality control, and I for the most part stopped buying not only their products but also reissues/remasters by all companies, instead preferring to find M or NM 1st or 2nd pressings from the 1950s - 1980s because they are the closest to the original master tapes due to time proximity.

Then I learn a couple years ago that MFSL introduced a digitization step into their process without publicizing it at precisely the time I noticed the decline in sound. When MFSL was found out about this little lie, they doubled down by saying that they were right: since (allegedly) no one had complained about the sound, that the digital/analog debate was over. However, what I heard was the opposite of this claim: I could hear a difference: I heard a thinness and lack of spacial detail, a flatness to the sound compared to their previous process.

I am almost 70. I expect to be listening to vinyl when I am 100, assuming that I can still get up out of a chair and flip the disk over. Then, if one of the 20-something guys who are bugging me to "donate" my collection to them are still around, by then they can have it.

 

[TLS Guy]

I started this hobby when I bought my first LP when I was 10 in 1964 and when I built my first Dyna Stereo70 when I was 14 in 1968.

My current system can be found here: https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/about

My website neglects to say that I have a Rega Planet CD player. That is because I have only 400+ CDs, whereas since I was 10, I have built up a collection of 6,000+ LPs. It also neglects to specify the interconnecting cables that I use. Please rest assured that the system is in fact connected with cables.

When guests listen to my audio system in my semi-anechoic room for the first time, they are ... stunned is the best word, though there are others that are more colorful and equally positive. Recently, someone said that "I am hearing music for the first time!". Another said that "This is BETTER than being there!". They ask to come back, repeatedly.

While I do have CDs for those recordings that are unavailable on vinyl, clearly I am pleased with my vinyl setup.

I am not terribly pleased with the three choices offered above. Imho everyone hears differently, and so I am going to argue for a 4th choice: whether or not analog is better than digital is subjective and up to the listener. It is a debate that - like tube v solid state - has yet to be settled. I find the author - Jerry Del Colliano - to be presumptively arrogant.

However, to the extent that I have personal anecdotal evidence that analog is better, I cite the following experience: I used to be a fan of Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab (MFSL). About 10-15 years ago, I noticed a subtle but distinct decline in sound quality. After 3 purchases in a row where I could hear this decline, I decided that it wasn't just a one-off lemon, that instead something systemic must have changed in their quality control, and I for the most part stopped buying not only their products but also reissues/remasters by all companies, instead preferring to find M or NM 1st or 2nd pressings from the 1950s - 1980s because they are the closest to the original master tapes due to time proximity.

Then I learn a couple years ago that MFSL introduced a digitization step into their process without publicizing it at precisely the time I noticed the decline in sound. When MFSL was found out about this little lie, they doubled down by saying that they were right: since (allegedly) no one had complained about the sound, that the digital/analog debate was over. However, what I heard was the opposite of this claim: I could hear a difference: I heard a thinness and lack of spacial detail, a flatness to the sound compared to their previous process.

I am almost 70. I expect to be listening to vinyl when I am 100, assuming that I can still get up out of a chair and flip the disk over. Then, if one of the 20-something guys who are bugging me to "donate" my collection to them are still around, by then they can have it.

I started collecting vinyl about 70 years ago, and shellac before that. I'm a little older than you.

I would say your speakers are way overdue for an upgrade.

I do have form with those 604C Altec drivers. I used them is some stage monitors in a job I did years ago.

They really are a pretty rough and ready driver, but hardly acceptable even for their era. I would never have remotely considered them for my home installation.

I could not begin to live with those. They are a pretty fierce earful to say the least.

 

[davidscott]

Back in the early 2000s I ditched all of my 500 or so lps and my entry level Thoren's TT as well as my cassette deck. Fast forward to 2015 and I bought a used REGA Planar 3 and started to buy some used vinyl. I'm up to around 100 lps now but I never replaced the cassette deck. The REGA sounds great with a new belt and upgraded cart but i rarely listen to it. Streaming hi rez music is just so much more convenient that I don't even listen to my NAD cd player that often anymore.

 

[Mikado463]

last year we lost a truly great Jazz Pianist, Ahmad Jamal. He was months shy of his 93rd birthday. I have a half dozen of his albums all on vinyl, enjoyed today 'Heat Wave', pressed in 1966. A great recording, to the best of my knowledge not redone digitally, my TT will be around as long as I am ...........

 

[unreceivedogma]

I started collecting vinyl about 70 years ago, and shellac before that. I'm a little older than you.

I would say your speakers are way overdue for an upgrade.

I do have form with those 604C Altec drivers. I used them is some stage monitors in a job I did years ago.

They really are a pretty rough and ready driver, but hardly acceptable even for their era. I would never have remotely considered them for my home installation.

I could not begin to live with those. They are a pretty fierce earful to say the least.

How arrogant of you. I just get finished explaining that my position on this stuff is to each their own.

You don’t even bother to enquire what my construction philosophy is, what my considerations were in designing my system. Instead, you give me your back, pull your pants down, bend over and take a dump in my face. What a class act you are.

You don’t consider that I’ve been at this for 59 years, that I have had the opportunity to listen to dozens of speakers over that time. You should be exhibiting curiosity, asking questions.

Are you aware that audiophiles dumped on 604Cs … in the late 60s, 70s, 80s, and what the reason was? Are you aware that 604Cs are back in vogue, and what the reasons are?

Oy vey iz mir. My first post in this forum. And I get s@#t on. What a welcome. I’m unsubscribing.

PS: By the way: the foto you posted is of a pair of 604Bs, not 604Cs.

PPS: I own about 300 78s.

 

[isolar8001]

Never a dull night here, that's for sure !!