Is it possible to store analog audio on optical disc?

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postgrungejunky

Enthusiast
I'm curious. Even with the amount fidelity DSD and MLP is capable of offering, both formats are limited by the capacity of a dual-layer dvd media and data bandwidth limitations specified by their respective formats. Also, every step of the way, some kind of A/D D/A conversion is involved. Of course, the quality of these converters vary thru the audio's signal path, since it travels through many different components. And of course, as the saying goes, the product will be only as good as the weakest link. Therefore, the best way is to keep the signal in the analog realm all the way to your speakers, right?

Of course, theres something that can already do that: vinyl. But with vinyl comes clicks, pops, cartridges, and degradation. Why can't there be an audio format that can simply plays back EVERYTHING what was recorded in the studio, instead of making a digital approximation of it?

I'll use a theoretical analog rock recording as an example. A band in a studio records about 4 dozen tracks to a 16 track tape. All of these individual tracks will be eventually downmixed to 5.1 and stereo for consumer listening. Now, the stereo master tape is as good as the fidelity of the recording will ever get right? In other words, playing that tape back thru a mastering studio's tape machine/monitors is the maximum fidelity of that particular recording, right?

SO my question to you is...why are we as consumers not allowed to hear it in that incarnation??????

A professional reel of tape is not that big. No larger than say...a small stack of records. That tape contains a finite amout of information. That finite amount of information will get screwed on its way of becoming that little 5 inch disc we all know and love. Of course with DSD and MLP, and wuth advances in a/d d/a conversion, digital audio has come a long way. But there HAS to be a way to hear the entire story.

Oh, going back to my original question, i think i read somwhere that laserdisc is ANALOG video stored on optical disc. Therefore...Maybe my understanding of this subject is all wrong but can't we do that same for audio?
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
postgrungejunky said:
I'm curious. Even with the amount fidelity DSD and MLP is capable of offering, both formats are limited by the capacity of a dual-layer dvd media and data bandwidth limitations specified by their respective formats.
postgrungejunky said:
Not sure I follow you as to what you think the limitation is? Everything has some limitations.


Also, every step of the way, some kind of A/D D/A conversion is involved.


No, there is an AD at the beginning and a DA before it gets to the speakers. Everything in between is all in the digital domain for a good reason. Robustness.

Of course, the quality of these converters vary thru the audio's signal path, since it travels through many different components.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

And of course, as the saying goes, the product will be only as good as the weakest link.

Lots of sayings out there in consumer marketplace:D Some may be true, others are just urban legends. Not implying that this may be a legend:)

Therefore, the best way is to keep the signal in the analog realm all the way to your speakers, right?

Absolutely wrong. The best is to keep it in the digital domain as far as possible. Similar to the video signal that can be in the digital domain from the camera to your LCD TV :D And, that would offer the least loss and most fidelity.

Of course, theres something that can already do that: vinyl.

Well, not really, unless you do a direct to disc recording. But, even then, your greatest weak link is the vinyl itself, well below any of the digital formats you mentioned or failed to mention, CD. Now here is your saying comes back to haunt.


Why can't there be an audio format that can simply plays back EVERYTHING what was recorded in the studio, instead of making a digital approximation of it?

Well, the digital formats do come the closes to the signal accuracy from the mic. So, your assumptions are in quicksand.

I'll use a theoretical analog rock recording as an example. A band in a studio records about 4 dozen tracks to a 16 track tape. All of these individual tracks will be eventually downmixed to 5.1 and stereo for consumer listening. Now, the stereo master tape is as good as the fidelity of the recording will ever get right? In other words, playing that tape back thru a mastering studio's tape machine/monitors is the maximum fidelity of that particular recording, right?

Well, it should be pretty good but you get losses in the analog domain.

SO my question to you is...why are we as consumers not allowed to hear it in that incarnation??????

You do. It seems that you may not accept that, hence another weak link in the audio chain.

That tape contains a finite amout of information. That finite amount of information will get screwed on its way of becoming that little 5 inch disc we all know and love.

Actually, it doesn't get screwed up. Many have compared DBT, the master tape feed and the CD. Next to impossible to differentiate.


Of course with DSD and MLP, and wuth advances in a/d d/a conversion, digital audio has come a long way. But there HAS to be a way to hear the entire story.

Actually, you do hear the entire story in the studio and mastering engineer hears. Try to accept this and you won't agonize over non issues.:D

Oh, going back to my original question, i think i read somwhere that laserdisc is ANALOG video stored on optical disc.

It was still in pits and hills on the disc but in a different encoding manner than CD.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
In short, no. Optical discs are 100% digital.

The problem with analog master tapes is the fact that they wear out. The more they are played, the more magnetic material rubs off and the more of the original recording is lost. Analog tapes also have a not-so-great signal to noise ratio. You can hear it even on the best analog recordings - as tape hiss. And besides, most recordsing nowdays are done directly to digital. There is no reel-to-reel master tape. Once the sound is mixed (or sometimes even before it's mixed), it is converted to a hi-rez digital format and stored on hard drives. Digital does not have a self-noise problem like analog tapes. There is no tape hiss. And as far as being an approximation, that is a non-issue with a high-enough sampling rate. The standard CD-quality has almost perfect fidelity in its operating frequency range. However, it has a brickwall filter at 22kHz to avoid aliasing in the signal. The new hi-rez formats allow for an even greater dynamic range as well as extended frequency response.

So as long as you're listening to a digitally mastered recording, you ARE working with the same source as the studio. What you lack are their amps, monitors, and carefully designed room.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
jaxvon said:
However, it has a brickwall filter at 22kHz to avoid aliasing in the signal. .

I don't think this is correct. CD players from very early on oversampled many times, 4X, 8X or more, to do away with the need for a brick wall filter.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
I don't think this is correct. CD players from very early on oversampled many times, 4X, 8X or more, to do away with the need for a brick wall filter.
.....yes, Mtry, way back I barely missed out on a really good deal from Damark on a CD player that had 32X oversampling....I'm sure that was overkill anyway......
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Even so, a 44.1kHz sampling rate will not accurately record anything above 22kHz.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
jaxvon said:
Even so, a 44.1kHz sampling rate will not accurately record anything above 22kHz.
.....yes, Jaxvon, I remember the American Dog Society lobbying against that 22k standard, haha.......
 
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postgrungejunky

Enthusiast
woops. maybe i shoulda thought this thru before ranting. :)
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
postgrungejunky said:
woops. maybe i shoulda thought this thru before ranting. :)
.....PostGrungeJunky, I apologize....I can kill a thread with the best of them....and, whether we like it or not, digital, continues on conquering, with added noise like zero......
 
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claudermilk

Full Audioholic
No, it's the nature of the media. As has been mentioned it's digital. Period. You either have a 1 bit or a 0 bit, there is no 0.5 or anoy other fraction available.

Regarding the multiple tracks comments, while I'm no expert, it isn't a matter of that many different speaker locations being mashed down to the 5.1, it's more of each track is dedicated to each instrument & sometimes multiple tracks are recorded with the intent of being mixed together. The raw tracks are not meant to stand on their own.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
jaxvon said:
Even so, a 44.1kHz sampling rate will not accurately record anything above 22kHz.

I don't think that is the issue, is it? Certainly that was not in your post, just a brick wall filter issue.
I don't need recorded signals above 22kHz. Useless.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mulester7 said:
.....yes, Jaxvon, I remember the American Dog Society lobbying against that 22k standard, haha.......

Why are you excluding the Bat society? LOL :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
postgrungejunky said:
woops. maybe i shoulda thought this thru before ranting. :)

Hey, not a problem. Ranting is allowed here :D
Never know if you brought up a great issue or not until you post it:)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
claudermilk said:
No, it's the nature of the media. As has been mentioned it's digital. Period. You either have a 1 bit or a 0 bit, there is no 0.5 or anoy other fraction available.

Regarding the multiple tracks comments, while I'm no expert, it isn't a matter of that many different speaker locations being mashed down to the 5.1, it's more of each track is dedicated to each instrument & sometimes multiple tracks are recorded with the intent of being mixed together. The raw tracks are not meant to stand on their own.

Exactly. If on the next pressing someone want to alter one of the instruments, they can without altering the whole channel.

And, this way, one can use a musician in NY for 1 track, one from England, etc and mix it in LA :D
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Hey, I like bats.

mtrycrafts said:
Why are you excluding the Bat society? LOL :D
They are very useful in getting the attention of the out of state drivers who infest jersey' roads.
 
C

claudermilk

Full Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Exactly. If on the next pressing someone want to alter one of the instruments, they can without altering the whole channel.

And, this way, one can use a musician in NY for 1 track, one from England, etc and mix it in LA :D
...or like one I know, use the same musician for every track! Brings a whole new meaning to the term one-man-band. :D
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
speaking of this...

claudermilk said:
...or like one I know, use the same musician for every track! Brings a whole new meaning to the term one-man-band. :D
Did you see "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" where ALL the Oompa Loompas are played by the same guy? There's an extra that shows all he had to go through for this. There was not as much digital trickery as one might assume. He busted his diminutive arse on this one.
 
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Waveform

Audioholic Intern
Laserdiscs

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but isn't the answer to the original question of this thread "Is it possible to store analog audio on optical disc? ", Yes, not only is it possble, early laserdiscs only had analog soundtracks. Later laserdiscs of course had both digital (DD or DTS or PCM) as well as analog soundtracks. (My understanding is that the video is always analog).

On a distantly related note, I've always wondered whether it might be possible to design optical pickups for vinyl disks. This (http://www.laser-vinyl.com/Turntables/Laser/TheLaserTurntable.htm)
might be old hat for readers on this forum but was news to me.
 
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jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
I just did a quick google search that explained how LDs are analog. To me, it sounds "kind of analog". The signal recorded on the disc is still "pit or land", ie 1 or 0. I guess the difference is in the decoding of the square-wave signal.
 
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Waveform

Audioholic Intern
It is an FM modulation signal, and as summarized in this FAQ (http://www.access-one.com/rjn/laser/legacy/ld96.html). The lands and pits do not represent on/off states; to quote "the video signal is represented by the pit-to-pit spacing and the audio is represented in the difference between pit/land length". LD mastering in 1972 did not involve any AD conversion as far as I am aware. Ready to be corrected of course.
 
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