Is Adding Amp to AV Recvr Worth the $$

S

sjm820

Audiophyte
I am thinking about adding a power amp to use with my Pioneer Elite SC-25 but don't know how much I need to increase the wpc to make a notable difference in performance. The SC -25 has 7 channnels of 140wpc through a Class D amp, though the actual output has been reported at more like 115wpc. Should using the SC 25 as a pre/pro and adding an Emotiva XPA 5 (200wpc - ClassA/B) make a significant difference in driving my 5 channel system (B&W 703's, HTM1 and DS3s)(my sub - Velodyne DD-15 - has plenty of ts own power). Or I could opt for the Emotiva XPA 3 to just run the 703s and the HTM1, and use the SC 25 for the DS3s in the rear. Or do I need to consider a bump up to at least 250 wpc with something like the Parasound Halo A 21 or A 51? Anything beyond that changes the whole economics for this tweak. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't think you will even get a 0.1% increase in performance.:D

Well, okay, maybe a 0.000000000001% increase in performance - maybe.:D

140WPC is great enough.

What is the size of your room?
 
S

sjm820

Audiophyte
Medium sized - 12 X 24 with cathedral ceiling goin up to 13 feet. I am not unhaapy with performance of the SC-25 - just wondering if more power will make adifference in the performance of the B&Ws.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
B&Ws are notorious in liking high Amps. A dedicated amp just might let them live up to their full potential.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
The Emotiva will have an advantage in two departments.

1st - dynamic headroom. Any given channel will be able to achieve very high levels of output, probably around or above 400 watts @ 8 ohms because the XPA-5 has very stout output channels as well as a large centralized power supply with very high block capacitance which allows instantaneous high output excellent with this amplifier.

2nd - tolerant of more intense impedance curves. The XPA-5 uses a triple darlington output stage. Couple this with the large power supply and it will deliver exceptional power output into virtually any load a speaker would impose down to the vicinity of 2 ohms on short term basis.

I think an audible difference could be very feasible depending on your listening habits and source material. Very dynamic material, such as a movie soundtrack or classic music, can greatly benefit from headroom.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Medium sized - 12 X 24 with cathedral ceiling goin up to 13 feet. I am not unhaapy with performance of the SC-25 - just wondering if more power will make adifference in the performance of the B&Ws.
Your room size of 3,700 cubic ft is good, but not that large.

Like others have said, it DEPENDS on a lot of things.

But IMO USUALLY you most likely will not get any improvements. And if you do get improvements, it will probably not be significant enough for your ears to discern.

I don't think it will hurt to add a 200WPC or 300WPC amp, but 140WPC is plenty IMO.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
B&Ws are notorious in liking high Amps. A dedicated amp just might let them live up to their full potential.
I think they are notorious for "liking high amps" because they don't sound all that "great" to some people, and the best excuse is "these amps are not good enough for these B&Ws".:D

In my first audition of the B&W 800D, the dealer says "these amps are not enough for the B&W". They were like 200WPC Classe amps. How many watts do you need?:eek:
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I think they are notorious for "liking high amps" because they don't sound all that "great" to some people, and the best excuse is "these amps are not good enough for these B&Ws".:D

In my first audition of the B&W 800D, the dealer says "these amps are not enough for the B&W". They were like 200WPC Classe amps. How many watts do you need?:eek:
They don't need high Watts. They need high Amps. They tend to have a lot of impedance swings. When they dip low, even a high Wattage receiver might have trouble giving them all the Amps they need to not clip.

As far as how they sound, IMO they aren't bad, but not as good as their price tag would lead me to believe.
 
M

m_vanmeter

Full Audioholic
I doubt you will hear a tremendous difference, but if you want to add an external amp, consider a 3 channel unit like the XPA-3 for the "front 3" speakers and let the receiver handle the surrounds....it will not even warm up to do that.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think they are notorious for "liking high amps" because they don't sound all that "great" to some people, and the best excuse is "these amps are not good enough for these B&Ws".:D

In my first audition of the B&W 800D, the dealer says "these amps are not enough for the B&W". They were like 200WPC Classe amps. How many watts do you need?:eek:
I can tell you for certain they need 400 watts per channel minimum: - personal communication with Mac. They use the 800 D as an amp torture test. They recommend 400 watts per channel or more.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The 700 series B&W does not need as much power as people hyped them up to. People, especially those who own decent amps (including me) would tend to hype things up, naturally I guess. The top end 800 series do need lots of power, hundreds of watts anyway.

Just a quick note on high power vs high current. This is also often hyped up perhaps because it is not easy for those without EE or physics background to understand, so they tend to go with hearsays and spread the words. The fact is, most decent (I know it may be hard to define what decent means) amps with decent power supplies are rated for 4 ohms. In that case, high power=high current=high power. In its simplistic form, power=voltageXcurrent X cosine of the angle between the voltage and current phasors so the two (current & power) are directly related such that we can't have one without the other.

Now if you are talking about entry level amps with weak power supplies, they will not be rated for low impedance loads and/or those with poor power factor (phase angle). In those cases those weaker amps will have trouble delivering the current but then they won't be, and shouldn't be considered as high power amp anyway. I would not consider any AVR high power, even though some of the manufacturers, such as HK refers them as "high current". When they say high current they meant high instantaneously current. Anything high that last more than a second or so would have such AVR's protective circuit activated.

On the other hand, I can hardly think of a true (typically speaking) "high power" amp, say 400W per channel that cannot deliver high enough current to those so call power hungry speakers, except for the biggies such as the B&W 802D and up. Those probably could benefit from amps of higher power than 400 WPC. And yes, at that level I would stick with power to avoid confusing the issue, current will naturally follow.
 
S

sjm820

Audiophyte
Thanks for the thoughtful feed back, but I am still struggling with the diverse opinions. I basically have a mix of B&W 700s and 800s in the front. 703s right and left and a Nautilus HTM1 - basically an 804 on its side - in the center. I like the idea of adding a three channel amp for the fronts and center and letting the Pioneer handle the rears. I seem to have plenty of power when listening to music through the 703s in two channel mode. Its when I am listening to movies in 5 channel that I wonder if I could use a little more clean power. I aways think of the center channel as not needing that much power but in my set up that may not be the case. Any thoughts on whether just adding a one channel amp for the HTM1 makes sense?
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Just a quick note on high power vs high current. This is also often hyped up perhaps because it is not easy for those without EE or physics background to understand, so they tend to go with hearsays and spread the words. The fact is, most decent (I know it may be hard to define what decent means) amps with decent power supplies are rated for 4 ohms. In that case, high power=high current=high power. In its simplistic form, power=voltageXcurrent X cosine of the angle between the voltage and current phasors so the two (current & power) are directly related such that we can't have one without the other.
Most AVR's are not 4 ohm rated. That's why I suggested that an external amp could improve his sound. It doesn't need to be a high powered amp, just an external one with it's own power supply so it can supply the needed current to make his speakers sing to their fullest potential.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for the thoughtful feed back, but I am still struggling with the diverse opinions. I basically have a mix of B&W 700s and 800s in the front. 703s right and left and a Nautilus HTM1 - basically an 804 on its side - in the center. I like the idea of adding a three channel amp for the fronts and center and letting the Pioneer handle the rears. I seem to have plenty of power when listening to music through the 703s in two channel mode. Its when I am listening to movies in 5 channel that I wonder if I could use a little more clean power. I aways think of the center channel as not needing that much power but in my set up that may not be the case. Any thoughts on whether just adding a one channel amp for the HTM1 makes sense?
I like the idea of adding a 3 channel amp. The XPA-3 should give them enough power, or current even when they dip to 3 ohms, though B&W dealers will likely tell you to use Classe, or Bryston as minimum.:D I strongly believe the SC25 can take care of the surround speakers. Adding a mono for the center does not make sense because the amp will most likely improve 2 channel performance if you listen to classical while the center channel will only improve your movie enjoyment. If I really doubt you will get much improvement in 5.1 with the amp because your THX certified Pioneer is quite capable for such applications especially when it is helped by a subwoofer.

I know a some people will tell you more power will benefit the surround channels but to me that is only true for a few movies or concerts while in most cases something like your SC25 is more than capable. A unit that is not THX certified may be just as capable but the fact that the SC25 is THX select 2 plus certified almost guarantee you will be fine as long as you are in a medium sized room of 2000 cu.ft or less. So contrary to what you may be thinking, it is for serious two channel applications where you may gain in sound quality by having more than enough power for your B&W speakers.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Most AVR's are not 4 ohm rated. It doesn't need to be a high powered amp, just an external one with it's own power supply so it can supply the needed current to make his speakers sing to their fullest potential.
I understand what you are saying now. The point I tried to make was simply that a high current (yes, relatively speaking only) amp almost invariably is a high power amp, whether you "need" it to be a high power amp or not. Conversely, a high power amp will be capable of high current because practically no one makes a truly high power solid state amp that is design for an 8 ohm resistive load only.

I was not referring to AVRs at all. There are only a handful of flag ship AVRs that are rated for 4 ohm speakers despite the fact that some mid range models can do it safely (may not optimally) in small to medium size rooms, for users who knows their limits.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It is important to use some common sense.:D

You just don't hook up a $20,000 pr of speakers to a $500 receiver.:eek:

But if we are talking about speakers that are < $2,000/pr, a $500 receiver will be just fine.

It seems like A LOT of things are hyped up.

My BP7000 goes down to 2.9 ohms and CLR3000 goes down to 2.2 ohms, and yet when I used a 50WPC HK receiver for a month playing 90dB movies and 85dB music, they sounded as awesome as ever.

If your speakers are $2K/pr, you don't need a $1K receiver & a $1K amp.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I like the idea of adding a 3 channel amp. The XPA-3 should give them enough power, or current even when they dip to 3 ohms, though B&W dealers will likely tell you to use Classe, or Bryston as minimum.:D I strongly believe the SC25 can take care of the surround speakers. Adding a mono for the center does not make sense because the amp will most likely improve 2 channel performance if you listen to classical while the center channel will only improve your movie enjoyment. If I really doubt you will get much improvement in 5.1 with the amp because your THX certified Pioneer is quite capable for such applications especially when it is helped by a subwoofer.

I know a some people will tell you more power will benefit the surround channels but to me that is only true for a few movies or concerts while in most cases something like your SC25 is more than capable. A unit that is not THX certified may be just as capable but the fact that the SC25 is THX select 2 plus certified almost guarantee you will be fine as long as you are in a medium sized room of 2000 cu.ft or less. So contrary to what you may be thinking, it is for serious two channel applications where you may gain in sound quality by having more than enough power for your B&W speakers.
I agree. The 3 channel amp for up front seems like his best bet. The center and 2 mains make up about 90% of the sound stange. His AVR should have no trouble driving his surrounds. It probably doesn't have "trouble" driving all of them, but the 3 channel amp should help him get the most out of the speakers he has.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
They (B&W) tend to have a lot of impedance swings. When they dip low, even a high Wattage receiver might have trouble giving them all the Amps they need to not clip.
According to Stereophile, the minimum impedance of the 802D is 3 ohms.

According to HTM, the minimum impedance of the DT BP7000 is 2.9 ohms.

Yet, I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, yeah, these DefTechs require a lot of high amps!":eek:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
According to Stereophile, the minimum impedance of the 802D is 3 ohms.

According to HTM, the minimum impedance of the DT BP7000 is 2.9 ohms.

Yet, I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, yeah, these DefTechs require a lot of high amps!":eek:
Knowing how low the impedance could dip to is not enough, the following plots will be more helpful.

1. Impedance vs frequency.
2. Phase angle vs frequency.
3. Sensitivity vs frequency.

I would love to see all 3 plots for both speakers for the full audio spectrum of 20 to 20,000 HZ. Then we can do a better comparison as to which one needs more power/current.
 
Mike Ronesia

Mike Ronesia

Junior Audioholic
If your speakers are $2K/pr, you don't need a $1K receiver & a $1K amp.
Maybe I'm just too new to all this but, it seems like you're using these hard numbers like all AV equipment is the same. I have some inexpensive speakers ($400pr) that clipped with my Denon once you started upping the volume to -20 (with 0 being reference I think??) I added an amp and they sounded wonderful all the way to "0". These were speakers rated at 125WPC and an amp rated at 200+WPC.
 

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