is 2Hz/4Hz worth additional $600/$900???

[copmagnet82]

If it were me, I would go for some gloss black Rythmik E15s over either, but between the SB13 and ML1500, I would probably swing for the SB13 because my guess is it will have lower THD for most of the same output levels. SVS does a beautiful job of keeping that THD low.

Rythmik is not a bad option either... hmmm... decisions, decisions...

 

[Basshead81]

SVS has a smaller woofer (13" vs 15") and more powerful amp; would that translate to less THD? I'm assuming a more powerful amp would help with THD, although not all power is created equal.

So, does front or down-firing configuration help or hurt ...or is it pretty much what ousooner2 said?

You can not use driver size and amp power to make that asessment. A subwoofer is a fine tuned system, the driver params, enclosure type/size, and amplifier all play a roll in overall performance.

Down firing can help mask harmonics and aid in reducing localization.

 

[lsiberian]

After reading all this, do you guys feel it's possible to build a good performing sub that will perform equally to the big name subs? I am pretty handy and it wouldn't be a major challenge to build a box. I'm more concern about picking the right amp and driver. Once all said and done, I could probably build 2 or 3 of them for the price of 1 big name unit ...but again, will I get quality bass out of a DIY sub?

If you exclude the cost of labor you can certainly beat a commercial offering. A TC Sounds LMS-Ultra is the ultimate driver for your purposes and it's really hard to do wrong with a driver that good. Of course you can go cheaper if you choose. For an amp get an EP4000. You'll need to make a fan mod, but it's simple. You can easily drive 2 subs with one of those down the line.

 

[fuzz092888]

If you exclude the cost of labor you can certainly beat a commercial offering. A TC Sounds LMS-Ultra is the ultimate driver for your purposes and it's really hard to do wrong with a driver that good. Of course you can go cheaper if you choose. For an amp get an EP4000. You'll need to make a fan mod, but it's simple. You can easily drive 2 subs with one of those down the line.

I can vouch for the LMS Ultras and DIY subs in general, matching and exceeding the performance of similarly priced commercial offerings (excluding labor).

 

[kramskoi]

As of last night I'm in the market for a sub and I'm sort of torn between three subs, all Martin Logan. My room size is 18Wx20Lx12H, but one of the walls opens up to the dinning room, so it's a "three-wall room".

The subs are:
Dynamo 1500X -> $1600 (satin finish) / $1900.00 (piano black) -> 650 watts (1300 watts peak) -> 20–200 Hz ±3dB
Dynamo 1000W -> $1000.00 -> 500 watts (1000 watts peak) -> 22–200 Hz ±3dB
Dynamo 700W -> $700.00 -> 300 watts (600 watts peak) -> 24–200 Hz ±3dB

As of today, I would not want to spend more then about $2000.00 for the sub/s. My original plan was to get two of the dynamo 700W to keep it balanced. Then, I decided to do two of the 1000W. Then again, I was thinking to get just one of the 1500X, because it can go down to 20Hz, ...and now I'm just confused . I'm looking to have nice, tight bass. I'm willing to spend the money, but I don't want to waste money if the difference is going to be marginal... you guys get the idea.

My questions are:
1. Is 2Hz/4Hz difference worth the extra money, will I hear/feel it?
2. Would I be better off getting two 700W's or two 1000W's vs one 1500X?
3. ...should I maybe consider Grotto or Depth from the Reserve ESL Series and not get any of the Dynamo Series subs?
4. ... your suggestions, preferably within the Logan family

Looking at Ricci's results, the 1500X is an absolute no go. The distortion below 30Hz is... sobering, and that is avoiding a more pointed pejorative, given the price of this subwoofer. It might get to 20Hz but it will be a dirty little boy when it gets there. The 100dB sweep just says it all about how much this driver can pushed, which is to say not much at all. If you want a 30Hz subwoofer, then the 1500X is your sub, otherwise, a less than prudent parlay of pecuniary reserves in my opinion. Forgive the caustic nature of my commentary but the tests speak for themselves. Not everything is about how much SPL you can wring out of the can.

Secondly, I would caution you that if you are looking for a perceptible difference in infrasonics, then a good target is extension by at least one octave of bandwidth from where the bottom is currently in your system, i.e. if your current extension is 20Hz, then I would say that 10Hz would be really noticeable. This is a difference that is likely not to disappoint you after having put down an appreciable amount of billage. 4 Hz might be noticeable, but you are up against the typical greater than 12 dB/octave roll off of protected commercial/ID subs, not to mention where the sub actually begins to roll off. Can't have too many destroyed drivers coming back for replacement. I would stay away from the Dynamo series, point blank.



Another problem with some commercial offerings is the push to make a sealed subwoofer "flat to 20Hz" (or lower) anechoically and that is just going in the wrong direction. Sealed subs are not really designed for such duty. That is the realm of the bass-reflex enclosure. Looking at the sweeps above, it seems clear that an appreciable amount of boost is happening around 20Hz. I would say group delay/impulse response will not be great because of this and upon further reading at Data-Bass, it is confirmed. Whew! So much is going on around 20Hz...high boost and subsonic filtering at the same time to keep the driver from popping out of the box like its name is Jack! This is the bane of most commercial sealed subwoofers and what I alluded to earlier. To be legitimate at 20Hz, it should stay under 10% THD until then. That does not happen here however.

I'm afraid Sir, that you must look elsewhere for legitimate 20Hz extension possibilities. At very low levels, it might make a claim to 20Hz but then how much impact will it really have then anyway. The Descent i is the only subwoofer that looks interesting but at the price point...a non-starter. I am sure it will do 20Hz pretty nicely, and the Depth i would do a good job as well. The Grotto i boasts a servo but a 10" sealed driver for 20Hz response is like kissing your sister...if their 15" driver can't get there then you can give up on a 10" coming anywhere close.

 

[lsiberian]

Looking at Ricci's results, the 1500X is an absolute no go. The distortion below 30Hz is... sobering, and that is avoiding a more pointed pejorative, given the price of this subwoofer. It might get to 20Hz but it will be a dirty little boy when it gets there. The 100dB sweep just says it all about how much this driver can pushed, which is to say not much at all. If you want a 30Hz subwoofer, then the 1500X is your sub, otherwise, a less than prudent parlay of pecuniary reserves in my opinion. Forgive the caustic nature of my commentary but the tests speak for themselves. Not everything is about how much SPL you can wring out of the can.

If a great ported sub is an option sure it's a better choice, but if it isn't then 1500X is good enough to complete a great sound system. It is certainly not a no go.

 

[copmagnet82]

I'm so glad I came for advice to this forum ... a lot of good info. Last week I sort of decided against the 1500X. I'm 99.99% positive I'll be going with SVS; better performance, better value for the money. I'm trying to convince the wife to get the PB13-Ultra, but it's really hard to sell the size of it. If that doesn't work I'll get two of the SB13-Ultra's. I'm still wondering about responsivness of the PB13 when listening to music, but then also I want to have a nice, solid sound when getting close to the 20Hz zone... I don't want to have distortion, but then once you push things beyond the limits, anything will distort... either way, I'm closer to pulling the trigger.

 

[shadyJ]

Hardly any sealed sub is going to give you clean 20 hz output. I doubt the SB13 could do that a whole lot better than the ML sub. If you want clean 20 Hz, you will need something like a PB13 Ultra.

 

[zhimbo]

" I'm still wondering about responsivness of the PB13 when listening to music, "

It measures like a dream. It should be considerably BETTER with music than the SB13, as it has, yes, more output and lower extension, but ALSO lower distortion AND much better group delay. I haven't heard one, but the objective measurements are pretty jaw-dropping.

 

[copmagnet82]

That's the graph for SB12, not the SB13. SB13 has more than twice the power and it's almost 3 times more expensive the SB12. I've been looking for a data sheet on SB13, but couldn't find anything.

 

[Steve81]

I've been looking for a data sheet on SB13, but couldn't find anything.

Here's a set from HTS.
SVSound SB13 Ultra - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

 

[copmagnet82]

actually, SVS has it posted, too, I don't know how I missed it

 

[kramskoi]

If a great ported sub is an option sure it's a better choice, but if it isn't then 1500X is good enough to complete a great sound system. It is certainly not a no go.

Sorry my friend but 20Hz is a no go with that design. I do suppose you will have additional slam at ~ 40 and 60 Hz as a THD benefit. You would not necessarily need a vented sub to have good output at and below 20Hz. Not even a commercial one. Good enough is simply not good enough at $1600. For the original poster who is looking for more extension, at $600-900 this makes little sense to me.

 

[kramskoi]

Hardly any sealed sub is going to give you clean 20 hz output. I doubt the SB13 could do that a whole lot better than the ML sub. If you want clean 20 Hz, you will need something like a PB13 Ultra.

Yes, you might be correct. The SB12 is worse than the ML @ 100dB but it is a smaller driver, although it is not a SB13, which still only uses a 13.5 inch driver. You simply can't get to those frequencies with drivers so small. Sd works against you no matter the xmax. Think single, high xmax 18 - 21" and dual 15" sealed configurations.

That said, I would be surprised if the SB13Ultra was not as good or better than the ML, even with the smaller driver.

*Looking at the HTS data, the SB13 Ultra is indeed better, with 8.3% THD at 107dB. It will be cleaner around 100dB. At the same price point, I like SVS.

 

[shadyJ]

If you want a beautifully clean and low distortion sealed sub, look at the Funk 18.0. The distortion sweeps on that thing are a marvel.

 

[lsiberian]

Sorry my friend but 20Hz is a no go with that design. I do suppose you will have additional slam at ~ 40 and 60 Hz as a THD benefit. You would not necessarily need a vented sub to have good output at and below 20Hz. Not even a commercial one. Good enough is simply not good enough at $1600. For the original poster who is looking for more extension, at $600-900 this makes little sense to me.

Sealed systems cost more because you need a better driver. At this point you are getting box size limited. The only way to improve 20hz distortion is to get bigger box because there is a limited amount of air in a sealed enclosure.

 

[kramskoi]

Sealed systems cost more because you need a better driver. At this point you are getting box size limited. The only way to improve 20hz distortion is to get bigger box because there is a limited amount of air in a sealed enclosure.

The only way really is to get a bigger driver...preferably larger than 15". Even 18's will have trouble producing the 10 - 20Hz octave. At $1600, the SB-13 Ultra is using a much beefier driver and it shows...same price point...better performance...smaller driver. The mistake in the ML design is attempting to make it run flat to 20Hz, when no sealed subwoofer should be designed that way, not even an LMS 5400. Too many negatives trying to make a sealed sub emulate a bass reflex design. If you are down ~ 6 dB at 20Hz then you are in the right ballpark and the wider the f6 bandwidth can be made, the better for group delay/impulse response.

Using a driver with high xmax and high BL, the box can still be made small...think 21" driver in 3.5 cu.ft. or an 18" in 2.5 cu.ft. It does not always require a huge enclosure...sure it must be wide enough to accomodate the driver circumference but it can still be shallow enough to retain a small footprint. Even the high-coil LMS 5400 has a depth of less than 12" and normal 21" drivers have only about 9 - 10".

 

[kramskoi]

If you want a beautifully clean and low distortion sealed sub, look at the Funk 18.0. The distortion sweeps on that thing are a marvel.

Well, for basic response, the Funk 18.0 is about -17dB @ 20Hz, compared to -10dB @ 20 Hz for the LMS 5400 in 4.2 cu.ft. So the sweeps are taxing the LMS more down deep. The TSAD18v1 driver is still a fair ways short of the LMS, especially in Max Passing SPL at 20 Hz: 108.2 dB/17% THD vs. 103.5 dB/20% THD

Still a very robust sealed subwoofer, but beyond the reach of most buyers at $3,200. Actually about the same price it was with the LMS on board. Interesting.

They have spurned the LMS driver for their own proprietary design. From a quality standpoint, it looks like a step down considering the distortion/output results. Of course, the sheer cost of the LMS is rather high overhead per unit to absorb, which likely spurred the development of their own driver, which looks like a really solid performer.

 

[shadyJ]

The LMS looks like a higher performer overall but not by a huge amount. One nice thing about the TSAD is that is it looks to be a bit more sensitive. Remember that the passive version is a lot less expensive than the powered version, and the Funk 18.0se is less then the regular 18.0. I imagine a passive 18.0se would cost quite a bit less than $2k shipped. One driver that I am interested in seeing compared to these is the Aurasound NS18.

 

[Steve81]

The LMS looks like a higher performer overall but not by a huge amount. One nice thing about the TSAD is that is it looks to be a bit more sensitive.

I'd daresay the nicest thing outside of sheer performance about the TSAD is the weight; the LMS Ultra is one the best 18" drivers on the market no doubt, but it's also a back breaker at >80lbs. Conversely, Josh pegged the TSAD ~30-35 pounds, and the complete Funk 18.0 weighs in at less than 100 pounds. I'd consider that a pretty cool feat considering that smaller, less capable subs like the SB13U, ULS-15, and F15HP are in the same ballpark.