E

ECLIPSEONYA

Junior Audioholic
So in all honesty will there be an audible difference between unbalanced RCA's and XLR balanced? I ask because I expect the cable length to not be more than 3 to 6 ft.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
So in all honesty will there be an audible difference between unbalanced RCA's and XLR balanced? I ask because I expect the cable length to not be more than 3 to 6 ft.
The short answer is, you are not likely to hear any difference between unbalanced and balanced interconnects when used between a preamp and amp.

Now for the long answer :rolleyes::

Balanced connections are commonly used in recording studios for microphones with long cables. Long cables (30 feet or more) carrying low voltage signals can pick up noise induced by electromagnetic interference (EMI) or radio frequency interference (RFI). Balanced connections and the differential circuits required on the each piece of gear involved can cancel out this noise. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

It seems that balanced connections are fashionable for preamp to amp connections, and many higher priced examples feature these as a sought-after feature. The voltage levels between preamps and amps are higher, roughly in the range of 0.1 to 5.0 volts. So it is likely that interconnects at this level are much less sensitive to EMI induced noise, especially if they are less than 30 feet long. I think that standard RCA interconnects between a preamp and amp are fine, unless you have an unusually noisy environment with high levels of EMI.

This subject, like so many in home audio, has become controversial. I have no doubt that others will chime in with opposing opinions.

I poked around to find approximate voltage levels from a low impedance microphone, and other commonly used audio components:

Phono pickups (typical values)
Moving coil 0.5 mV (1 thousand mV = 1V)
Moving magnet 4.0 mV

Microphones 1.3 – 3.2 mV (from Shure)

Line level 0.32 V (100 times stronger than a microphone)

Home audio preamp (B&K Ref 50)
Input sensitivity 0.09 V
Max output 8.0 V

Home audio amp (B&K Ref 200.2)
Input sensitivity 1.4 V (unbalanced) and 2.8 V (balanced) (1000× stronger than a microphone)

Microphones put out about as much signal as a typical moving magnet phono pickup. This is about 1% the voltage of any typical line level source such as the analog audio outputs from a CD player. And it is 0.1% the input sensitivity of at least one home audio amp where I could find the relevant specs.

An interesting question comes out of all this. Why are there never balanced interconnects coming from a phonograph pick up? They put out the lowest voltage signal found in home audio. If they don't require balanced interconnects, why do some people think they are of benefit at the much higher voltages found between a preamp and amp?

Now some will argue that balanced connections between a preamp and amp will insure protection against EMI induced noise. Yes this is true. But is it worth the extra cost to buy a preamp and amp with the differential circuits required for balanced connections? The voltages involved between preamps and amps are 100 to 1000 times larger than those in microphones. They are 100 to 1000 time less sensitive to induced noise.

I'd rather spend my money on some nice Salk speakers with an exotic veneer finish :D.
 
Last edited:
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Simple fact of life.

I found the King Cobra's I am assuming this is the equivelent to teh sidewinder? They look pretty nice though!
The Sidewinder is just fine, you don't need to pay more than this.
I figure that the King Cobra is more expensive, right?

So in all honesty will there be an audible difference between unbalanced RCA's and XLR balanced? I ask because I expect the cable length to not be more than 3 to 6 ft.
For the length that you'll be using, the RCA unbalanced interconnects are just perfectly fine. The only reason you want the XLR balanced, is if your distance is more than 15 or 20 feet, and even then...

Also, if you can get the XLR balanced for not much more $$ than the RCA unbalanced, then it's a non-issue, just get the XLR balanced (you'll get a clean and tight connection, they look good, they sound as fine as the unbalanced one, and the price was right). :)

And no, you won't notice an audible sound difference, unless you're the Lord. ;)
But there is only one for now, and for now, he says the sound of RCA unbalanced interconnects are indistinguishable from the XLR balanced ones.

Are we clear yet? ;) So, you're good to go? :)

Regards,

Bob
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
So in all honesty will there be an audible difference between unbalanced RCA's and XLR balanced? I ask because I expect the cable length to not be more than 3 to 6 ft.
Not IMO ;) if you were fully balanced from source to pre to amp, maybe and that's a big maybe. You might be able to measure a differences but its more than likely not something that you would hear. Most gear that have balanced outputs are not fully balanced.
 
E

ECLIPSEONYA

Junior Audioholic
That is why I post here. No nonsense. I will be looking for RCA interconnects from here on out. I didn't realized it but my home theater hookup for my speakers actually carries audioquest so maybe he can works omething out for me as well.
 
djreef

djreef

Audioholic Chief
That is why I post here. No nonsense. I will be looking for RCA interconnects from here on out. I didn't realized it but my home theater hookup for my speakers actually carries audioquest so maybe he can works omething out for me as well.
Absolutely,

Always go thru your local guy, esp if he's helped you in the past with equipment that he's familiar with. It'll take alot of the guesswork out of the process.

DJ
 
djreef

djreef

Audioholic Chief
And no, you won't notice an audible sound difference, unless you're the Lord. ;)


Bob
Wow! Cool, my spiritual status has been elevated to deity.

But in all fairness, I have fewer layers in my rig to work around, so things that aren't typically revealed on other setups stick out like a sore thumb in my system. Sometimes that's not a good thing.


DJ
 
R

red_5ive

Enthusiast
So I have now locked up the processor and the amp. Pulled the trigger on the 886 last night from none other than accessories4less. This is really exciting, I am wondering what movie I will have to watch first. Maybe by the time I get back the New Terminator or Transformers will be on Blu-ray and that can be the first thing I watch with all this new gear. Thanks again everyone for the sound voice of reason, my pocket book says thank you!
I'm also considering ordering a reconditioned 886 from Accessories4Less since they offer a 3 and 5 year warranty. I'm curious, though, what shape was your 886 in? Could you tell it was a reconditioned unit, and did it ship in actual 886 packaging? Thanks!
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
I'm also considering ordering a reconditioned 886 from Accessories4Less since they offer a 3 and 5 year warranty. I'm curious, though, what shape was your 886 in? Could you tell it was a reconditioned unit, and did it ship in actual 886 packaging? Thanks!
Hi, red_5ive, and Welcome to Audioholics. :)

I never bought the 885 or 886 from accessories 4 less, but I know a lot of people that did; and they could not tell if the unit was brand new or not, just impossible. So, feel very confident about this great place, your 886 should looks brand new with excellent original packaging.
Accessories 4 Less is one one of the very best place to purchase reconditioned audio components. and the Onkyo Pro PR-SC886P is the best Surround Processor (Pre/Pro) that you can buy today at this exceptional price.
Everyone that owned it (99.733%), are totally satisfied with it, so as the PR-SC885P, the previous model, that was available last april for only $529.

Extremely Highly Recommended. :)

Cheers,
Bob
 
R

Robof83

Audioholic
Hopefully that guy was recomending that cable to you out of pure ignorance and not greed. I think we can give him the benefit of the doubt:)
 
R

Robof83

Audioholic
I highly suggest anyone who still believes that cables/interconnects have any affect what-so-ever on sq do a little more unbiased research into the subject.

A good place to start would be to read the three speaker cable face-offs here on the audioholics site. Also look into the method of double blind testing and the effects of conscious/subconscious biases. Finally, look into the power of the placebo affect and the affects it has on the brain.

I know this has nothing to do with cables/interconnects, but IMO it's highly relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPAjUvvnIc
 
R

red_5ive

Enthusiast
Hi, red_5ive, and Welcome to Audioholics. :)

I never bought the 885 or 886 from accessories 4 less, but I know a lot of people that did; and they could not tell if the unit was brand new or not, just impossible. So, feel very confident about this great place, your 886 should looks brand new with excellent original packaging.
Accessories 4 Less is one one of the very best place to purchase reconditioned audio components. and the Onkyo Pro PR-SC886P is the best Surround Processor (Pre/Pro) that you can buy today at this exceptional price.
Everyone that owned it (99.733%), are totally satisfied with it, so as the PR-SC885P, the previous model, that was available last april for only $529.

Extremely Highly Recommended. :)

Cheers,
Bob
Thanks for the info and the warm welcome. I went ahead and placed my order. I can't wait for it to arrive!
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I highly suggest anyone who still believes that cables/interconnects have any affect what-so-ever on sq do a little more unbiased research into the subject.

A good place to start would be to read the three speaker cable face-offs here on the audioholics site. Also look into the method of double blind testing and the effects of conscious/subconscious biases. Finally, look into the power of the placebo affect and the affects it has on the brain.

I know this has nothing to do with cables/interconnects, but IMO it's highly relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPAjUvvnIc
It's not that cables can't make any difference, the problem is that so many manufacturers and dealers make claims that can't be verified. The first set I used when I bought my DVD player were so bad I thought about returning it until I tried the ones I had been using for my CD player. The difference was huge but it's only because the first ones were a cheap set of pre-made with molded on ends.
 
E

ECLIPSEONYA

Junior Audioholic
Red 5ive,

Sorry I did not get back to you sonner about the condition of the 886. I actually have not seen the product yet as I am out of the country on business ;). My roomates opened it up and said it was in great condition so I dont know if that means new or reconditioned but for the price I really didnt care. Half way done and looking forward to NOVEMBER! Gonna be a complete bum and watch every blu-ray I own and maybe make some time for FOOTBALL! Sriously though this site is a great place to get advice and I have no regrets about making my purchases.
 
R

Robof83

Audioholic
It's not that cables can't make any difference, the problem is that so many manufacturers and dealers make claims that can't be verified. The first set I used when I bought my DVD player were so bad I thought about returning it until I tried the ones I had been using for my CD player. The difference was huge but it's only because the first ones were a cheap set of pre-made with molded on ends.
Well, I guess to a certain degree. I mean you can spend very little and get all the cable you will ever need. As long it's the correct gauge for the length you shouldn't have any problems at all.
 
R

red_5ive

Enthusiast
Red 5ive,

Sorry I did not get back to you sonner about the condition of the 886. I actually have not seen the product yet as I am out of the country on business ;). My roomates opened it up and said it was in great condition so I dont know if that means new or reconditioned but for the price I really didnt care. Half way done and looking forward to NOVEMBER! Gonna be a complete bum and watch every blu-ray I own and maybe make some time for FOOTBALL! Sriously though this site is a great place to get advice and I have no regrets about making my purchases.
No problem, Eclipse. I ended up ordering late last night (past midnight Pacific Time), and to my surprise A4Less had a tracking number in my inbox 6 hours later! To think I was going to try and call this morning to have it changed to 2-day shipping since I didn't pay any expected tax, as I feared the unit wouldn't ship until Tuesday and I really wanted it this week. That's great service IMO. Here I am talking about wanting it this week and you're the one who has a much longer wait. Thanks for the input, and I hope you get to enjoy the unit soon! Anyway, sorry folks for the thread jack.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I guess to a certain degree. I mean you can spend very little and get all the cable you will ever need. As long it's the correct gauge for the length you shouldn't have any problems at all.
I sell and install this stuff but the ones that sounded like crap really surprised me. Nakamichi car audio cable from the late '80s was a little dull sounding and seemed more prone to noise pickup but WOW! These cheapos were the worst I have heard. I had made some cables up when I worked for an AAMP of America dealer and it was what I stocked for my shop, when we made up cables for custom car systems and that sounds fine. Easy to solder the RCA's on (unlike the Nakamichi) and I haven't touched them for any repairs to the connections and as I posted, they can make a difference but the vast majority of the claims are too much like magic to be believed.

I have used RG-59, RG-6 (quad and non-quad), Munster, Audio Quest, Liberty, Belden/West Penn, Genesis and several other brands for all kinds of signal. So far, the ones I like most are the ones that terminate easily, don't cost too much and can be pulled from one place to another easily. I hated terminating AudioQuest- they had a 24ga center conductor and as we all know, you can't push a rope. Munster is overpriced, they actually use some plugs made by other companies and just spec heavier plating, which causes them to bind in the jack. The rest are fine, although the Genesis bundle, which has a blue and a gray Cat5E,a black and a white RG-6Q is harder to terminate the white coax, for some reason. The others are fine, don't cost too much and sound/look fine. I have also been in stores that sell the AQ interconnects with the batteries and that's just insane.
 
G

ggunnell

Audioholic
First, the required caveats.
1. You have to have decent equipment to hear the differences between interconnects. A Denon player 19xx and up, a mid line Yamaha receiver, and speakers with extended high frequency response (Vifa XT25, B&W aluminum domes, ribbons, etc. for tweeters) for example.
2. The subtle differences are best heard on well recorded classical/jazz/vocal etc.
3. You should audition cables in your own home. Don't buy "hear-unheard" from a place with no returns.

Here we go:
Air is considered one of the better sounding dielectrics (well, vacuum is better but just a little hard to build :) ). Thus the Audioquest Diamondback, the current model of which runs each conductor through a small polyethylene tube with a larger inside diameter than the diameter of the wire. Thus the wire only touches the tube occasinally, and is mostly surrounded by air.
This is the highest price interconnect I recommend thinking about unless you have really good equipment. I paid about $100 per meter pair a couple years ago and that's all they're worth (IMO) -- the current MSRP of $150 is just too high. Highfi's statement that adding a battery to this cable geometry is insane slightly misses the mark -- it's the MSRPs that are insane :) Putting a slight potential difference an the air tube design does give a slight improvement in sound; however, the air tube design without a battery (Diamondback) gradually devepts a slight DC charge imbalance over the first 30 minutes or so of operation.
A disadvantage of this type of cable construction is lack of mechanical strength. Don't fish this through walls, or use it where it might get stepped on.

Next down the ladder is Teflon, best exemplified by Belden 89259. This cable is the basis for one of the best DIY designs by Jon Risch, but is difficult to find in bulk. Fortunately Blue Jeans Cable, RamElectronics, and SignalCable all carry Teflon interconnects; I'll link to BJC's page: http://bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/89259.htm
and as you can see, you're still looking at $90+ dollars for a 3' pair.
Teflon cable is not very flexible, avoid it where you need tight radius bends.

Next are foamed dielectrics (usually polyethylene) -- the previously mentiond Audioquest Sidewinder is an example of this. Many vendors carry this type of interconnect -- here's BJC's Belden 1694 page:
http://bluejeanscable.com/pages/technicaldocs/1694tech.htm
and we're under $30 for a one meter pair.

Don't expect much from cable upgrades with average equipment. If you can't already hear the difference between good and average recordings you are wasting your money. If all you listen to is rap and tech you are wasting your money.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
First, the required caveats.
1. You have to have decent equipment to hear the differences between interconnects. A Denon player 19xx and up, a mid line Yamaha receiver, and speakers with extended high frequency response (Vifa XT25, B&W aluminum domes, ribbons, etc. for tweeters) for example.
2. The subtle differences are best heard on well recorded classical/jazz/vocal etc.
3. You should audition cables in your own home. Don't buy "hear-unheard" from a place with no returns.

Here we go:
Air is considered one of the better sounding dielectrics (well, vacuum is better but just a little hard to build :) ). Thus the Audioquest Diamondback, the current model of which runs each conductor through a small polyethylene tube with a larger inside diameter than the diameter of the wire. Thus the wire only touches the tube occasinally, and is mostly surrounded by air.
This is the highest price interconnect I recommend thinking about unless you have really good equipment. I paid about $100 per meter pair a couple years ago and that's all they're worth (IMO) -- the current MSRP of $150 is just too high. Highfi's statement that adding a battery to this cable geometry is insane slightly misses the mark -- it's the MSRPs that are insane :) Putting a slight potential difference an the air tube design does give a slight improvement in sound; however, the air tube design without a battery (Diamondback) gradually devepts a slight DC charge imbalance over the first 30 minutes or so of operation.
A disadvantage of this type of cable construction is lack of mechanical strength. Don't fish this through walls, or use it where it might get stepped on.

Next down the ladder is Teflon, best exemplified by Belden 89259. This cable is the basis for one of the best DIY designs by Jon Risch, but is difficult to find in bulk. Fortunately Blue Jeans Cable, RamElectronics, and SignalCable all carry Teflon interconnects; I'll link to BJC's page: http://bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/89259.htm
and as you can see, you're still looking at $90+ dollars for a 3' pair.
Teflon cable is not very flexible, avoid it where you need tight radius bends.

Next are foamed dielectrics (usually polyethylene) -- the previously mentiond Audioquest Sidewinder is an example of this. Many vendors carry this type of interconnect -- here's BJC's Belden 1694 page:
http://bluejeanscable.com/pages/technicaldocs/1694tech.htm
and we're under $30 for a one meter pair.

Don't expect much from cable upgrades with average equipment. If you can't already hear the difference between good and average recordings you are wasting your money. If all you listen to is rap and tech you are wasting your money.
ggunnell

Your post is generally reasonable sounding and intelligently written. So I'll try a gentlemanly approach to a rebuttal. I promise to avoid flames and any macho challenges.

In your post, you make some claims that I think are extraordinary. (I bolded them to point out which phrases I mean.) They suggest that someone has determined by listening tests that interconnects with these various types of insulation are audibly distinguishable. If this is true, please fill us in on the details of these listening tests. If not, please reword your post so that it does not seem to readers that any scientific result was determined.

The same comments apply to the description of differences in sound attributable to a DC charge across an interconnect.

Your phrase that describes the types of tweeters suggests that the nature of these sounds requires speakers with extended high frequency response. This suggests that it might be possible to record and display the frequency response spectra that demonstrate audible sounds due to interconnects. I would like to see them.

I remind you that the debate over this whole subject is not new. It is best summed up by this quote:

“Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated by subjective testing is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds of human perception, even wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to ensure that what is being subjectively evaluated remains hidden. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and people, who are otherwise serious, persist in the belief that they are immune to the influence of such factors as price, size, brand, etc. In some of these so-called great debate issues, such as whether amplifiers, wires, and the like have an audible effect, there are those who go so far as to claim that disguising a product’s identity actually prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. That debate shows no signs of slowing down.” -- Floyd E. Toole

If you own such cables as you describe, that's fine.

If you recommend them and believe they improve the sound of your system, again, that's fine.

But please do not make broad claims about their effect, without showing the evidence to support your claims. There are many readers here who are new to audio and are trying to gather information. Lets stick to the facts.
 

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