Intelligent Design ruling

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Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Buckle-meister said:
Rubbish. People were knocking lumps out of each other long before religion ever came along.
Yeah! Religion just organized it into a blood bath, and put thoughts in to the heads of people that made them 10 times more violent.

SheepStar
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Buckle-meister said:
Rubbish. People were knocking lumps out of each other long before religion ever came along.
You sure about this? Most of what I hear is that the two seem to go hand in hand with each other. I don't really know of a time before religion - it may have been a different one than we are killing over today, but so much of sacrifice and war is embedded specifically with religions it is apalling. Christianity most definitely is no exception to this rule.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
I don't really know of a time before religion - it may have been a different one than we are killing over today, but so much of sacrifice and war is embedded specifically with religions it is apalling.
Sure you do. Remember Zeus? How about the golden cow? The sun? I'm sure there were early civilizations that worshipped pigs and chickens. After all, these were beneficial to life, right? Now take a guy who disrespects one of these, and I'll show you a riot to take him out.

Everyone worships something. Beer. Axiom audio. Your boss. The Ohio State Buckeyes. Projectors. Ex-girlfriend. Err, wife. Things that make you happy are worth worshipping. If enough people catch on, you can start a cult. If more catch on, you may be able to qualify it for a tax deduction. ;)
 
T

The Dukester

Audioholic Chief
mtrycrafts said:
See what strife religion is brought to the world? Yet another world conflict is looming over it.
When will humanity wake up?

One of the most true statements in this thread!!! When will people abandon "religion" and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior!? Alas, the day will come that every knee shall bow and every tougue confess that Jesus is Lord. Sadly, for many, it will be a day of reckoning.:eek:
 
JeffD2.

JeffD2.

Audioholic
George Carlin pretty much sums it up for me-

In the Bullsh!t Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullsh!t, big-time, major league bullsh!t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullsh!t story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullsh!t story. Holy Sh!t!


More Carlin here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/carlin.htm
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
The Dukester said:
One of the most true statements in this thread!!! When will people abandon "religion" and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior!? Alas, the day will come that every knee shall bow and every tougue confess that Jesus is Lord. Sadly, for many, it will be a day of reckoning.:eek:
And this is why they call them *sheep*, folks.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Yar, JeffD2. be on the money, I mean treasure!

Yar, SheepYar
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Jeff,

That was funny. I don't think I saw that skit. George is sometimes a bit raw, but tells it like it is.

Any good salesman knows that the easiest way to a persons wallet is to find their pain, and then eliminate that pain. The more pain, the more potential to close the deal. People have been known to give up huge sums of money to avoid pain.

Pain can range from waiting on a rebate, to termite damage in a house, to lack of bass during a favorite movie, an ongoing itch, etc... The trick is to find a common denominator of the majority who need to relieve widespread pain.

What worse pain is there than the fear of suffering in the bowels of hell? Some of the best sales happen every Sunday morning.
 
T

The Dukester

Audioholic Chief
krabapple said:
And this is why they call them *sheep*, folks.

Thanks for the compliment.:D Tis true that I have a great Shephard in whom I have no fear and who's flock I am a member.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckle-meister said:
Rubbish. People were knocking lumps out of each other long before religion ever came along.

Imagine how much less lumps would have been doled out over time. But, perhaps, then the world population would be 3X as it is now? Maybe it is a good idea then.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Sure you do. Remember Zeus?
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Isn't that in mythology?


How about the golden cow? The sun? I'm sure there were early civilizations that worshipped pigs and chickens. After all, these were beneficial to life, right? Now take a guy who disrespects one of these, and I'll show you a riot to take him out.

I'd like to read the accounts on this, first hand account only:D
 

Buckle-meister

Audioholic Field Marshall
Sheep said:
Yeah! Religion just organized it into a blood bath, and put thoughts in to the heads of people that made them 10 times more violent.
No Sheep. It is people that find ways to physically visit harm on others, not religion.

BMXTRIX said:
You sure about this?
Quite sure. ;) Assuming we were all monkeys at one time (some more than others :D), we were still clubbing each other to death, yet nobody would seriously propose that religion was around then.

BMXTRIX said:
...so much of sacrifice and war is embedded specifically with religions it is apalling. Christianity most definitely is no exception to this rule.
I totally agree, but that's not what I was meaning in my previous post.

Buckeyefan 1 said:
Sure you do. Remember Zeus?...
Exactly.

mtrycrafts said:
Imagine how much less lumps would have been doled out over time.
Call me a pessimist, but I doubt there would've been. People would've found another reason to kill and maim if religion wasn't around.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Worshipping a cow is religion - worshipping the sun is religion. Religion doesn't have to be based on God and the unseeable unlike what most people think these days. Back when we were monkeys, we were monkeys, not home-sapiens. This classification is critical, as about the time we became home-sapiens we immediately began to worship and find religion in anything and everything. The Incas and Aztecs and pretty much every ancient civilization is entrenched in religion... And it goes hand-in-hand with war.

It is the statements like this that are indicitive of the problems with religion...

"When will people abandon "religion" and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior!? "

That IS religion - it is blind faith. It is acceptance without any knowledge, but entirely on faith. Find for the person, but it is followed by the words...

"Alas, the day will come that every knee shall bow and every tougue confess that Jesus is Lord."

No, you do not know this, you can't confirm this - NOBODY can. While the faith is fine, actually stating, as fact, that everyone shall bow down, is truly insanity. It is the same thought running through the heads of people driving planes into skyscrapers, and people who feel this way, in my opinion, are not far off from those people. It is borderline insanity and not at all productive for all humankind.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Where's that religion that can guarantee me 72 virgins without committing suicide? I have very specific requirements for these virgins - not all will qualify. First off, they must be female... :eek:
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Where's that religion that can guarantee me 72 virgins without committing suicide? I have very specific requirements for these virgins - not all will qualify. First off, they must be female... :eek:
I don't know, I'd actually settle for 72 "low milage" females on temporary loan. :p
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckle-meister said:
Call me a pessimist, but I doubt there would've been. People would've found another reason to kill and maim if religion wasn't around.

I think this is testable:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Where's that religion that can guarantee me 72 virgins without committing suicide? I have very specific requirements for these virgins - not all will qualify. First off, they must be female... :eek:

You are greedy:D
I will take just a few.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Mtry, you'll enjoy this:

Does the Koran really promise Islamic martyrs 72 virgins?

14-Dec-2001

011214.gifDear Cecil:

There's been a lot of talk about how the hijackers who destroyed the World Trade Center expected to receive 72 virgins (or 70 or 50, depending on whom you listen to) in paradise. Is this really true? (That they expected this, I mean, not that they'll receive it.) It seems a rather unsophisticated and juvenile theology: "In heaven you can eat all the ice cream you want and stay up past ten o'clock and it's always recess." Is there any Koranic basis for believing that those who kill and die for the faith will get the aforementioned virgins? --J. Haas
Cecil replies:

I realize I'm treading on dangerous ground here. But I figure, Salman Rushdie got a fatwa, and I want one too.

A couple observations. First, nonfundamentalist Muslims don't take the cosmological parts of the Koran any more literally than nonfundamentalist Christians take the biblical story of Genesis. They understand the bits about virgins and so on as metaphors for the ineffable joys of the afterlife. Second, while dreams of celestial babes may motivate the impoverished Palestinian kids who blow themselves up on Israeli street corners, a number of the 9-11 terrorists were older and had known something of earthly delights. That these middle-class types nonetheless were suicidal fanatics is yet another indication that we've entered a scary new phase.

Now to your question. The difficulty in determining what the Koran has to say about virgins and such is establishing what the Koran says, period. Translators vary widely in their rendering of the spare and often opaque text. For example, we find the following passage in a Web-based version of Islam's holy book (www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm): "Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34). Whoa, one thinks--the Kingdom of Heaven meets the Playboy Advisor! However, most other English translations, both on-line and in print, replace "full-breasted maidens" with some tame construction such as "companions." Inquiring further, we find that the Arabic word at issue is WakawaAAiba, which appears nowhere else in the Koran. The French, less prudish in these matters, usually render it as something like des belles aux seins arrondis, "beautiful women with round breasts," so I think it's pretty clear what the Prophet, or at least his stenographers, had in mind.

Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."

A little hype from the marketing department, you may say. Fine. Let's return to the Koran, Islam's font of religious authority. Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows. (In fairness to the Prophet, the physical quality usually attributed to the houris, as they're called, is "wide lovely eyes.") The food, service, ambience., etc, are great. You're allowed to enjoy things the Koran explicitly denies you on earth, such as alcohol, and you won't even get sick. ("Wine . . . delicious to those who drink it . . . will neither dull their senses nor they will become drunk.") Granted, the whole thing is skewed toward the male idea of a good time, a defect by no means confined to Islam. Were Muhammad to found a religion today, I'm confident that each female arrival in heaven would be assigned a comely stud who would provide fabulous sex and in addition hang the curtain rods the first time he was asked. Granted, also, the emphasis on virgins is a little weird. (Think back on the first nights you've been party to. Was this your idea of great sex?) Still, you have to admit, heaven as Party Central sure beats the Christian idea of angels with harps.

Does this make Islamic cosmology "unsophisticated and juvenile"? Maybe. (Oh, let's not be lame about this. Of course it does.) But don't be too quick to judge. Christianity, after all, invented the idea of paradise in the first place. Looking at things from the point of view of a cynical materialist, which is the more outrageous proposition--luring the proles with the promise of eternal life, or throwing 72 virgins into the bargain?

--CECIL ADAMS
 
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