integrated amplifier advice needed, please!

[mtrycrafts]

You can speculate (John Atkinson does this) that not hearing any difference means that the test procedure is somehow flawed, .

Oh, yes, they know what they hear, absolutely, so it must be the testing protocol; somehow it masks everything.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't think anyone was saying that you were lying. It's just that, given the conditions, it's hard to say _what_ produced the differences you heard.

Why is it that when you question someone, almost always they feel that you accuse them of lying?
Obviously there are other reasons for perceptions.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That is actually one of the things that could very well be due to the listening room.
.

Absolutely. Room has the biggest effect if the speaker is the same; some just kid themselves.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts, you sound like a broken record dude!

Of course. I don't change on a whim, day of the week, or hearing something that sounds good. Day after day, 2+2 tends to be the same.

If the amp you are describing was the proverbial "straight wire with gain" I would agree with your statement. However, no two amps are laid out, wired, or constructed exactly alike.

But you said you know about psychoacoustic, JNDs, etc. Obviously been reading the wrong books.


Amps have differing input impedances, differing output impedances, varying degrees of deviation in the audible frequency range, different levels of Total Harmonic Distortion, and differing harmonic distortion components (1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order, etc.), different signal to noise ratios, differing degrees of adherence to a linear phase response (or lack thereof) and different levels of mechanical noise.

I guess then, your mind is closed, no more research on your part to see what makes for audible differences. Try to read something good for a change, like those citations?

The circuit topology of one amp differs from another. Designers make different trade-offs based upon what they believe to be important, or upon what they think is allowable within the price point they are shooting for. Component parts selected for use in circuits for a particular amp are different from others used in another similar circuit in a different brand.

Same old straw arguments. When a basket is empty, back to the same old straw.

Yet you are trying to tell us that all of these differences will add up to no difference in the sound that comes out of this complex circuit? Are you crazy???

Actually, it is what has been demonstrated what counts, not what I am telling you. Perhaps, you should expand to the real knowledge library.

But I forgot... Messers Rich, Aczel, and Nousaine are your anointed prophets. They speak, and their word is law! Do I find it difficult to believe that you would cite dissertations from people who believe the same thing you do? Of course not! They are obviously more credible... at least in your eyes.

Whom should I have cited then, John Atkinson? Robert Harley? John Curl? Jon Risch???

Well, certainly you are not credible. So, they win. But, perhaps, if you have published something credible, please share with everyone. I am certainly here to learn. I don't think you are in that position.

However, their claims are no more valid for me than mine are for you.


You said a mouthful.

 

[The13thGryphon]

The13thGryphon,

Which amp and preamp in NAD line that you would recommend?

Thank you.

If you're looking for an amp/preamp combination from NAD then the obvious choice would be the C162 preamp and C272 amp. The amp is rated at 150 wpc.

According to a July 2004 review by The Absolute Sound, they liked the combination quite a bit. Here are a few of Chris Martens comments from that review:

"the NADs always got the musical essentials right"

"The first and most central of the NADs’ musical qualities is midrange voicing that sounds open and well-defined, yet that always captures the natural warmth, “roundness” of tone, and evocative sweetness of midrange instruments."

"Second, the NAD pair offers unfailing upper midrange and treble smoothness, even on vigorous transients."

"Few affordable components handle the treble smoothness/extension balancing act as effectively as the NAD components do..."

"Third, the C 162/C 272 pair offers clear yet robust and full-bodied bass, especially in the all-important mid-bass region (this quality is one of the essential ingredients in NAD’s “house sound”)."

"Fourth, the C 162/C 272 pair treats the listener to highly believable three-dimensional soundstaging on great and even not-so-great recordings."

"The true genius of the C 162 and C 272, then, is that they bring you close enough to top-tier performance in so many areas, with a sound that is so balanced and free from disruptive discontinuities, that you are released from preoccupation with audio equipment—and set free to savor (and become deeply content with) the beauty of music, itself. What could be a higher recommendation than that?"

Track them down and take a listen for yourself... I think you'll like what you hear... but you'll have to be the final judge.

 

[The13thGryphon]

I guess then, your mind is closed, no more research on your part to see what makes for audible differences.

I'm glad to see that you do actually admit that there are audible differences between amps. That's what I've been saying all along... and here I thought that you were in the other camp. I would love to know beyond any possible doubt what is causing these audible differences in ampliphier design, so I have a very open mind in that regard, as apparently do you.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Absolute Sound, .

Are they credible? Why should I or for that matter, anyone trust them???

 

[The13thGryphon]

mtrycrafts,

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I'm going to listen very carefully to your reply to this particular post, in an effort to try to understand where you are coming from. Please do answer this one question I pose at the end of this post.

I can understand you reluctance to take my statements that I can indeed hear audible differences between various amp designs and brands. I know that to you these differences are caused by my beliefs and expectations about a particular brand, and my emotional state at the time of listening. So, I’m going to describe a situation that occurred to me…

I visited a Magnolia Hi-Fi and was primarily looking for a set of speakers. I listened to several models in the store and was drawn to a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethoven’s. The system connected to the Beethoven’s consisted of a Krell KPS CD player, a Krell Home Theater Standard pre-pro, and a Krell FPB 200 amp, all connected up with Audioquest IC’s and speaker cables. Sitting on the other side of the low equipment rack was a B&K amp and preamp, with a Toshiba CD player for a source. These components were connected to a second pair of speakers, the Vienna Acoustics Mozart’s, but were off, as I’d come in shortly after opening.

As the salesman knew me from previous visits he closed the doors to the listening room and carefully verified the setup: exact location of speakers and their toe-in matched the markings on the floor, no surround modes or EQ enabled on the pre-pro, set to simple stereo and “pure-direct” mode, and no crossover or sub used.

After listening to several cuts off of the CD’s I happened to have with me that day, I was very impressed with the combination. Tight, extended, tuneful bass, clear and musical mids, and detailed highs without going overboard into sizzle that will cause listener fatigue. I remember listening to cuts from the Holly Cole Trio album “Blame it on my Youth”, and several songs from Eric Clapton’s Unplugged album, and a couple of cuts off of Robert Cray’s “I was Warned” album. I was really pleased with the sound and thinking that maybe I’d found a pair of speakers that I could live with. I went home to get some additional CD’s and headed back to listen further.

When I got back less than two hours later my usual sales consultant was gone for lunch, and another sales person took me back into the listening room. Everything appeared to be exactly as I had seen it earlier in the day. He cued up my first CD – “Steady On” by Shawn Colvin – and I sat back to listen. After a minute or two I asked to have him play a different cut. Although the sales person had been smiling and tapping his foot, something just didn’t seem right to me. The second cut was also disappointing. As I was listening to a different CD, I figured maybe the mix was a little muddied and I’d just never really noticed before... although up until then I’d loved this album and thought the production was top notch. We put on a different CD – “Be Yourself Tonight” by the Eurythmics. Again, after several minutes I just wasn’t feeling it like I had earlier.

At that point I asked him to throw on Eric Clapton’s Unplugged, which I had listened to earlier and loved. That too proved ultimately to be a letdown. The bass was not as extended, and what was there was bloated and slow… not the tight, tuneful, sound I recalled. In addition, the upper mids and highs seemed to have lost a bit of detail and glow. I asked the salesperson to check to see if a surround mode had been turned on, or if any EQ settings had been added or adjusted. After a quick check all was as it should have been, and was earlier. I even walked over to the Beethoven speakers to ensure they were on and playing and someone hadn’t switched the speaker leads over to the smaller Mozart’s.

At that point I was at a total loss. I had walked in expecting to be further dazzled by the system that had thrilled me just two hours previous. I was looking at the same big ‘bad boy’ Krell amp, and the same Home Theater Standard pre-pro, and the same Krell KPS CD player, and the same Vienna Acoustics Beethoven speakers… all of which I was admittedly taken with. What was wrong? Suddenly the system I'd been very impressed with earlier in the day just wasn't doing it for me!

The room was the same, the speakers were the same and in the same place, the source and preamp were the same, the IC's and cables were the same... and I thought that the amp was the same. I had no doubt in my mind that I was listening to the same equipment, but something was indeed wrong with how it sounded. Not terribly wrong as in “yuck”! Just a little bit different. A little less musical; a little “fatter” and slow. A little less transparent. Not tons… but enough to notice.

As I was sitting there trying to understand what was happening, and why I was having such a different reaction to what I believed to be the exact same system, the sales person was checking the connections to all of the equipment. Suddenly he said “Hmmm, that’s strange.” When I asked what he meant he indicated that someone had run the output of the Krell HTS pre-pro into the B&K amp, and connected the Beethoven speakers to the B&K as well. Everything in the system was the same as before… except the amp!

Now you can’t say that I came in expecting to hear something different. You can't say that I believed that I would hear anything different. And you can’t say I was swayed by the look or sex appeal or name of the amp, ‘cause I didn’t know it had changed. You can’t say I that my emotions were the cause of hearing something different, ‘cause I was “in the groove” on both occasions and believed that I would be similarly impressed. And you can’t say that the sales person somehow consciously or sub-consciously influenced me, ‘cause he didn’t know there had been a change either.

So how do I explain this other than to believe that I could/can indeed discern an audible difference?

I am interested in your explanation… so please do enlighten me.

 

[PENG]

mtrycrafts,

So how do I explain this other than to believe that I could/can indeed discern an audible difference?

I am interested in your explanation… so please do enlighten me.

The most likely explanation is that you heard the difference between the Krell and the B&K. In my previous posts I said I could not hear much difference between my amps, but I did claim I could hear a subtle difference. I don’t think the difference is worth 3 to 4 times the cost between them by my own standard. I do have some doubt (no doubt they have more sensitive and discerning hearing than me) about those who claimed hearing huge, day and night type of differences. Perhaps it is just a matter of the way people use those adjectives. When I did my comparisons in the past by wire swapping, I always had to struggle to hear that little perceived difference and I therefore concluded that I would fail any controlled blind tests. IMHO, just because people fail a blind test does not really mean they cannot hear a difference in extended listening sessions. Conversely, even with your ability, are you sure you could pass a blind test? Not that it matters, I am just curious.

Sorry for jumping in before mtry.

 

[j_garcia]

That's about as good of an example of a blind test as I've ever heard already.

 

[The13thGryphon]

The most likely explanation is that you heard the difference between the Krell and the B&K. In my previous posts I said I could not hear much difference between my amps, but I did claim I could hear a subtle difference. I don’t think the difference is worth 3 to 4 times the cost between them by my own standard. I do have some doubt (no doubt they have more sensitive and discerning hearing than me) about those who claimed hearing huge, day and night type of differences. Perhaps it is just a matter of the way people use those adjectives. When I did my comparisons in the past by wire swapping, I always had to struggle to hear that little perceived difference and I therefore concluded that I would fail any controlled blind tests. IMHO, just because people fail a blind test does not really mean they cannot hear a difference in extended listening sessions. Conversely, even with your ability, are you sure you could pass a blind test? Not that it matters, I am just curious.

Sorry for jumping in before mtry.

I can't honestly state whether I'd be able to consistently pass a blind or double-blind test or not. I've never participated in any controlled testing of that nature.

I will admit my only experience in any testing I knww about in advance was with a group of fellow audio sales people and enthusiasts in a "home brew" test. As our home brew challenges were not scientifically based, I can't say they count for anything more than a general consensus... we just wrote down our impressions of two unknown amps and then shared our opinions... it wasn't a statistical analysis. As there was no written documentation and white paper published, I don't think that'd count for much in some people's eyes.

I would also have to admit that some comparisons were just too close to call... others seemed to be pretty obvious. Not "night and day" differences by any means. Most differences are indeed fairly subtle. Even the situation I described above took me many minutes and several albums of careful and critical listening to finally come to the conclusion that something was off. More of a "hmmm... something’s not quite right", instead of a "wow, what happened, that's terrible!"

Don't know if that is helpful or not. Words mean different things to different people and in different circumstances. It is very difficult to quantify utilizing vocabulary only.

 

[PENG]

Don't know if that is helpful or not. Words mean different things to different people and in different circumstances. It is very difficult to quantify utilizing vocabulary only.

Yes, this is absolutely helpful, and thank you for sharing your experience. I know I don't have those golden ears but I do hear that little subtle, yet unmistakable difference between my gears. To pass any blind test is a different story, one of the problem is, we (I anyway), don't have much hearing memory. At least now I know even someone like you, who can consistently tell amps apart, would not describe those differences as day and night.

Thanks again!

 

[mtrycrafts]

To pass any blind test is a different story, one of the problem is, we (I anyway), don't have much hearing memory.

Don't worry, you are not alone on this. Actually, researchers know this very well
Have a look at some research into it:

echoic memory

http://www.google.com/search?source...rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-38,GGLG:en&q=echoic+memory

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts,

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

So how do I explain this other than to believe that I could/can indeed discern an audible difference?

I am interested in your explanation… so please do enlighten me.

Not the first time I have heard this kind of experience. Common. Not as bad as invoking a wife hearing differences from across the room, etc.

But, getting back to your experience.
A number of issues. The protocol was anything but blind. Was the level of the two setup the same, to withing 0.1 dB spl??? I hardly think so as things in such a setup are just changed without much thought. Perhaps a lucky guess? Who knows. No one knows.

If you are serious about this, and if that store is willing, you might want to take an spl meter, a test disc with 1kHz tone, 10kHz tone and perhaps at 100Hz. Check where the various volume controls are to get the same exact spl reading from different components, same speakers. Check channel balance as well as not all are exactly matched.
Some kind of switching setup. then see how well you can guess in 15 trials, not just one.

Volume difference is the biggest cause for differences due to poor setup.

There is no reason for audible differences between that Krell and B&K operated withing their design limits, none. Both are well designed.


Expectations are always present. Bias is subconscious and uncontrolled, no on/off switch.

I can only go with evidence that can be replicated at will and properly controlled for. Just one example that is easy to access on line. 3 Golden ears, a famous test:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

Hope this helped

 

[mtrycrafts]

IMHO, just because people fail a blind test does not really mean they cannot hear a difference in extended listening sessions. Sorry for jumping in before mtry.

Don't be sorry An open board and I am sure everyone is eager to read your inputs, perhaps even more than mine

But, you may be interested that even this hypothesis was tested at least once, for months.

Shanefield, Daniel, " The Great Ego Crunchers: Equalized, Double Blind Testing,: Hi-Fidelity, Mar 80, pg 57-61.

Extended testing is even more difficult. Memory is short, see the link I posted elsewhere.

 

[mulester7]

Memory is short

.....memory is "very" short, Mtry, you bet....that's why I compare with one amp on the front mains, and a different amp on the like-rears, with the full-range signal....all four are firing into an empty middle of the sound chamber....I walk back and forth with ears cupped, listening to the front two in stereo, and then the back two in stereo, and they are playing at the same time, the same signal, from the same pre and source....I have the DVD remote in hand and constantly back it up one pop on the ten-second button, and listen for the lick on the other speakers, ears cupped, simple enough, back and forth....then I kill one amp, and listen to ten seconds of something good on the other speakers.....then, flip back ten seconds and quickly swap the kill on amps....from front firing speakers, you're listening to all four produce first-hand concussion before it's first bounce point, don't tell me room conditions matter that much unless severe....this AB listening test works on amps, Guys....watch for crispness in the highs.....a little crispness is a good thing, but too much will get old, and it starts to sound raspy....crispness actually is distortion, especially varifiable if you lose interest fairly quickly in the sound....really up high tinkles, like from jewelry tinkling, sound wonderful again with McIntosh slave power....you might think I think McIntosh is good stuff....listen, I wouldn't encourage any of you to buy Mac used amps, they're trash....but, from the standpoint of your needing moral support after being confronted with trash, if any of you hear of any used Mac amps for sale, please PM me, and we'll figure out "together" how the guy can best be reached, and then we'll go over things to say when you call him in a week.......