Inquiring?

[speakerman39]

Guys, I must admit that I am very impressed with the Infinity Kappa Perfect DIY design. Kudos to both Chris and Andrew for their hard work and dedication to this great hobby. I also would like to thank Haloeb for his DIY website. Thanks buddy as I find it very insightful. Of course, I can NOT thank Jamie enough for bringing this to my attention.

With that being said, I have been wondering what if someone wanted to use a single Kappa Perfect sub with say an O Audio amp. I know that Chris is fond of these amps and they are reasonably priced. Have any of you DIY guys ever thought of doing the same thing? The reason I ask is because some of us do not have the money to go with two of the Kappa Perfects OR have the room for such subs. As such, I am looking for an alternative to my LFM-1Pluses. Keep in mind, my preference has been, and will always be, on musical performance first and foremost. Secondly, I need a sub that does offer good extension into the mid 20's. Most importantly, tight, punchy, tuneful, well articulated bass is paramount. Lastly, there must be vast distinctness in the transient response while at the same time remaining very controlled and linear.

After reading Chris's opinions of the Kappa Perfect driver, I am convinced it is the "one" to use for MY needs. The question is what kind of enclosure and what kind of power will I really need? A sealed enclosure would be better suited in my little ht room. However, I am not opposed to a medium sized vented if my needs are met. In short, I hope to build a musical sub that still offers some good slam with respect to most ht applications. Please feel free to offer some tips. Thanks for your time.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[WmAx]

Guys, I must admit that I am very impressed with the Infinity Kappa Perfect DIY design. Kudos to both Chris and Andrew for their hard work and dedication to this great hobby. I also would like to thank Haloeb for his DIY website. Thanks buddy as I find it very insightful. Of course, I can NOT thank Jamie enough for bringing this to my attention.

With that being said, I have been wondering what if someone wanted to use a single Kappa Perfect sub with say an O Audio amp. I know that Chris is fond of these amps and they are reasonably priced. Have any of you DIY guys ever thought of doing the same thing? The reason I ask is because some of us do not have the money to go with two of the Kappa Perfects OR have the room for such subs. As such, I am looking for an alternative to my LFM-1Pluses. Keep in mind, my preference has been, and will always be, on musical performance first and foremost. Secondly, I need a sub that does offer good extension into the mid 20's. Most importantly, tight, punchy, tuneful, well articulated bass is paramount. Lastly, there must be vast distinctness in the transient response while at the same time remaining very controlled and linear.

After reading Chris's opinions of the Kappa Perfect driver, I am convinced it is the "one" to use for MY needs. The question is what kind of enclosure and what kind of power will I really need? A sealed enclosure would be better suited in my little ht room. However, I am not opposed to a medium sized vented if my needs are met. In short, I hope to build a musical sub that still offers some good slam with respect to most ht applications. Please feel free to offer some tips. Thanks for your time.

Cheers,

Phil

I highly recommend the ported enclosure I designed for avaserfi, of which a variant of, he posted in the DIY thread and is stickied to the top of the forum. This was designed for maximum sound quality as the primary requirement. It offers very high SPL with very low distortion down to 18-19Hz. This enclosure has a net internal volume just under 4 cubic feet, not including the folded slot port.

If you desire a more compact size, and mid 20's strong output, I recommend the 10" version of the Perfect VQ. With a net volume of about 2.2-2.4 cubic feet, it can do what you want easily. As with any high powered ported system, you must have a subsonic filter to protect the driver under port tuning, which is included with the O Audio 500 watt BASH amp.

If you go sealed, this driver should have a filter engaged to cut the signal under 35Hz, to allow good dynamic range, while having low distortion. You really need both a high pass subsonic filter that is adjustable, and a parametric EQ to extend the bass as flat as possible out to about 33Hz. The 0 Audio amp has both adjustments, but I'm not sure if the subsonic filter can be placed high enough. Please check the specifications on the O Audio website.

If you cross to your main speakers over about 50-55Hz, then you need two subs, one placed on each side of room, in order to have perfectly integrated bass that acts as a single source with the main speakers. Not important for HT. But critical for music.

-Chris

 

[jamie2112]

Hey Phil whats shakin buddy? First off I have seen the Ep2500 for 200 bucks on ebay. How much is the O amp? I am almost finished the 2nd one of mine and I can't even imagine 2 of them it will be stunning I am sure. With the DCX unit you can tailor the sub to the sound you like. It is very musical as well and although its rather large the spl and tightness of the bass is amazing.Warps build looks really sweet as well and those are sealed and in a smaller footprint. Jump in Phil you'll love it the waters warm...


LOL I knew Chris would be on this one quick. Listen up Phil he speaks the truth...

 

[WmAx]

Hey Phil whats shakin buddy? First off I have seen the Ep2500 for 200 bucks on ebay. How much is the O amp? I am almost finished the 2nd one of mine and I can't even imagine 2 of them it will be stunning I am sure. With the DCX unit you can tailor the sub to the sound you like. It is very musical as well and although its rather large the spl and tightness of the bass is amazing.Warps build looks really sweet as well and those are sealed and in a smaller footprint. Jump in Phil you'll love it the waters warm...

Jamie, did you ever compare that Kappa Perfect down at the high end shop with your friend? If so, what did he think?

-Chris

 

[jamie2112]

Yes Chris I posted it here http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45528&page=12 bottom post
I am hoping this Sunday....

 

[mike c]

looking at your space, i would recommend you follow the volume, port area and length requirements but adapt it to your space. no sense in DIYing something that won't fit.
i don't think you could fit the simple kappa box design by your couch

 

[speakerman39]

Hey Phil whats shakin buddy? First off I have seen the Ep2500 for 200 bucks on ebay. How much is the O amp? I am almost finished the 2nd one of mine and I can't even imagine 2 of them it will be stunning I am sure. With the DCX unit you can tailor the sub to the sound you like. It is very musical as well and although its rather large the spl and tightness of the bass is amazing.Warps build looks really sweet as well and those are sealed and in a smaller footprint. Jump in Phil you'll love it the waters warm...


LOL I knew Chris would be on this one quick. Listen up Phil he speaks the truth...

Hi Jamie. Please don't take this post the wrong way. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Chris and Andrew. It is that I don't have the money or the room for dual subs of that stature. In fact, been a bit concerned with how much room my Pluses take up in my little ht room. As such, looking at some alternatives that will (1) outperform my Pluses and (2) take up less space. Perhaps, even use a single unit. I am very aware that Chris knows what he is talking about. Sorry, if I came across that way as that was not my intention. I am wondering if the Kappa Perfect can be used in the capacity of my needs w/o using a large enclosure and staying within my budget. As always, it is not much. I do just about have my 170's paid off though.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[jamie2112]

I wasn't thinking you were taking it the wrong way Phil. I think 1 of those babys would kill your room thats all.....

 

[speakerman39]

I highly recommend the ported enclosure I designed for avaserfi, of which a variant of, he posted in the DIY thread and is stickied to the top of the forum. This was designed for maximum sound quality as the primary requirement. It offers very high SPL with very low distortion down to 18-19Hz. This enclosure has a net internal volume just under 4 cubic feet, not including the folded slot port.

If you desire a more compact size, and mid 20's strong output, I recommend the 10" version of the Perfect VQ. With a net volume of about 2.2-2.4 cubic feet, it can do what you want easily. As with any high powered ported system, you must have a subsonic filter to protect the driver under port tuning, which is included with the O Audio 500 watt BASH amp.

If you go sealed, this driver should have a filter engaged to cut the signal under 35Hz, to allow good dynamic range, while having low distortion. You really need both a high pass subsonic filter that is adjustable, and a parametric EQ to extend the bass as flat as possible out to about 33Hz. The 0 Audio amp has both adjustments, but I'm not sure if the subsonic filter can be placed high enough. Please check the specifications on the O Audio website.

If you cross to your main speakers over about 50-55Hz, then you need two subs, one placed on each side of room, in order to have perfectly integrated bass that acts as a single source with the main speakers. Not important for HT. But critical for music.

-Chris

Thanks Chris for the info. It looks like the O Audio amp does not have a high pass subsonic filter higher than 30 Hz. I also would rather use the 12" Kappa Perfect rather than the 10" version. Chris, I am not attempting to change your design, but rather have you design a slightly different version as in a more compact cabinet using the O Audio amp. Perhaps, I should have posed my question that way. Or, do you have any other suggestions in bettering my Pluses and at the same time move to a more compact cabinet? I think you have a good idea of what I am looking for. BTW, I have my 340's crossed over at 80 Hz. The Pluses, take over from there in Max Output mode. I never run them in Max Extension mode as I prefer the extra punch above 30 Hz or so. Thanks for you input.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

looking at your space, i would recommend you follow the volume, port area and length requirements but adapt it to your space. no sense in DIYing something that won't fit.
i don't think you could fit the simple kappa box design by your couch

Hi Mike can you clarify for me. I am a bit confused here. Are you saying that a single Kappa design would be even bigger than both of my Pluses? Not sure and that is why I am asking for your clarification.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I wasn't thinking you were taking it the wrong way Phil. I think 1 of those babys would kill your room thats all.....

That is what I was thinking Jamie. One would be plenty for my little ht room. Just thought I would not need and EP2500 to power one of them and thus could save some money. Hence, Chris, is very fond of the O Audio amps and I thought that may work. Then, was wondering if there was a way to ascertain a more compact cabinet and thus solving another issue I have been wanting to solve. Really looking forward to seeing how yours turns out. I am convinced my friend, but have limited funds as always. Therefore, I do the best I can with what I have.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[WmAx]

Consider, possibly, dual Kappa Perfect 12 VQs in sealed cabinets. You could, with some small compromise, get highly dynamic output to 30Hz, and factoring room LF boost, it would end up 25Hz or so F3 in room. You could make the cabinets very slender (9-10" wide each) and a bit high, so that very little floor space was used. The subs would be side firing, of course. This will give you both the best integration with your mains, and give you tremendous output(as long as you use subsonic filter set at 30Hz), relatively speaking, with flawless/transparent LF.

-Chris

 

[speakerman39]

Consider, possibly, dual Kappa Perfect 12 VQs in sealed cabinets. You could, with some small compromise, get highly dynamic output to 30Hz, and factoring room LF boost, it would end up 25Hz or so F3 in room. You could make the cabinets very slender (9-10" wide each) and a bit high, so that very little floor space was used. The subs would be side firing, of course. This will give you both the best integration with your mains, and give you tremendous output(as long as you use subsonic filter set at 30Hz), relatively speaking, with flawless/transparent LF.

-Chris

Sounds very interesting Chris. I like the way you describe it. What amplification are you thinking? Can you give me a better idea of how this would look? Could I still place them behind my love-seat or would you move them to the front between my 340's? Most importantly, how would these compare to my Pluses? I am sure the Pluses would have a bit more extension, but musically how would these side-firing subs do? BTW, I sure wish you lived closer..........LOL!!!!! You should be doing this for a living-I am sure you have heard this before.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[annunaki]

The JL Audio 12W6v2 will perform as good as the Infinity if not slightly better (it has a slight xmax advantage and is even a touch more linear, particularly in the suspension) in a similarly sized or slightly smaller enclosure.

A 3.5 ft^3 enclosure tuned to 23hz with a slot vent 3.00" x 12.00" x 46.43" would get you a stellar performing sub system. This yields an anechoic f3 of about 21hz.

You could take the net volume down to 3.00 ft^3 still tuning to 23hz, but the port length increases to 55.12" and the anechoic f3 rises a bit to 23hz.

The 10W7 would be a phenomenal performer in a 3.0ft^3 enclosure tuned to 22hz. The vent at 3.0" x 14" x 71.41" is a bit long though. It will easily compete with most competent 15" woofers on the market for output.

The Audiopulse Epic 212D will get you to 2.0 ft^3 with a 2.0" x 13" x 67.17" vent tuned to 22hz. This is a fairly linear driver and would offer better performance than you currently have from a rather small enclosure. The vent would displace approximately 1.4 ft^3 (depending upon construction) and figuring woofer & bracing displacement, you could get the whole enclosure under 3.6 ft^3. This yields an anechoic f3 at just 20hz. Impressive performance and a small package. I am just not sure you can get the subs anymore

Just some other options for you.

 

[speakerman39]

The JL Audio 12W6v2 will perform as good as the Infinity if not slightly better (it has a slight xmax advantage and is even a touch more linear, particularly in the suspension) in a similarly sized or slightly smaller enclosure.

A 3.5 ft^3 enclosure tuned to 23hz with a slot vent 3.00" x 12.00" x 46.43" would get you a stellar performing sub system. This yields an anechoic f3 of about 21hz.

You could take the net volume down to 3.00 ft^3 still tuning to 23hz, but the port length increases to 55.12" and the anechoic f3 rises a bit to 23hz.

The 10W7 would be a phenomenal performer in a 3.0ft^3 enclosure tuned to 22hz. The vent at 3.0" x 14" x 71.41" is a bit long though. It will easily compete with most competent 15" woofers on the market for output.

The Audiopulse Epic 212D will get you to 2.0 ft^3 with a 2.0" x 13" x 67.17" vent tuned to 22hz. This is a fairly linear driver and would offer better performance than you currently have from a rather small enclosure. The vent would displace approximately 1.4 ft^3 (depending upon construction) and figuring woofer & bracing displacement, you could get the whole enclosure under 3.6 ft^3. This yields an anechoic f3 at just 20hz. Impressive performance and a small package. I am just not sure you can get the subs anymore

Just some other options for you.

Wow, both you and Chris should start your own company. I have much to learn. Anyways, lots of solid suggestions here but as always money is a factor. I, like most, am looking for something that offers huge bang for your buck that will outperform what I already have and take up less space. Thank you so much for your input.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[WmAx]

Sounds very interesting Chris. I like the way you describe it. What amplification are you thinking? Can you give me a better idea of how this would look? Could I still place them behind my love-seat or would you move them to the front between my 340's? Most importantly, how would these compare to my Pluses? I am sure the Pluses would have a bit more extension, but musically how would these side-firing subs do? BTW, I sure wish you lived closer..........LOL!!!!! You should be doing this for a living-I am sure you have heard this before.

Cheers,

Phil

The need to be installed near the mains, one sub near each, for optimum music reproduction, in terms of integrating with the mains as a seamless LF source.

As for amp, it only makes totally up to you. If you plan to eventually get a DCX2496(which is going to give you maximum sound quality in many different ways/areas), a stereo pro amp is what I suggest. The most economical being the Behringer Ep2500. You do need to change the fan out though, as the stock one is audible. It's the same type of fan, and same level of complexity to change it out, as it is to change out a standard PC case fan. There is a particular model fan that shoudl be used, as it has been found to the lowest noise unit available to work in the Ep2500. It is $8 plus shipping for the fan.

The Perfects used as described, will simply be utter perfect/transparent LF units. If you want deep extension, of course, then they really can not be used without sacrifice in terms of linearity; they just don't have the required excursion to produce 20Hz in a sealed cabinet with high SPL.

BTW, if budget was a little higher, the JL 8" W7 can used in a 1 cubic foot ported cabinet, to get flat, high SPL, low distortion output almost comparable to the 12" Perfect, down to about 24Hz. With 1.5 net cubic feet, down to about 19Hz. With the port, total volume would end up about 1.8-2 total cubic foot, roughly. It may sound absurd, but the W7s really are that incredible. The 8" is very comparable to extremely high quality 12" conventional subwoofer drivers.

I do some stuff for people, btw, but I am very slow/in-efficient and I don't have a proper work shop(just one of the reasons for the low efficiency). I am currently finishing up a very special re-engineering project for Matt to get him speakers comparable to Revel Salon 2, and even superior in many ways, but for much lower cost of course, and I am working on a extremely special completely original design for another person.

-Chris

 

[speakerman39]

The need to be installed near the mains, one sub near each, for optimum music reproduction, in terms of integrating with the mains as a seamless LF source.

As for amp, it only makes totally up to you. If you plan to eventually get a DCX2496(which is going to give you maximum sound quality in many different ways/areas), a stereo pro amp is what I suggest. The most economical being the Behringer Ep2500. You do need to change the fan out though, as the stock one is audible. It's the same type of fan, and same level of complexity to change it out, as it is to change out a standard PC case fan. There is a particular model fan that shoudl be used, as it has been found to the lowest noise unit available to work in the Ep2500. It is $8 plus shipping for the fan.

The Perfects used as described, will simply be utter perfect/transparent LF units. If you want deep extension, of course, then they really can not be used without sacrifice in terms of linearity; they just don't have the required excursion to produce 20Hz in a sealed cabinet with high SPL.

BTW, if budget was a little higher, the JL 8" W7 can used in a 1 cubic foot ported cabinet, to get flat, high SPL, low distortion output almost comparable to the 12" Perfect, down to about 24Hz. With 1.5 net cubic feet, down to about 19Hz. With the port, total volume would end up about 1.8-2 total cubic foot, roughly. It may sound absurd, but the W7s really are that incredible. The 8" is very comparable to extremely high quality 12" conventional subwoofer drivers.

I do some stuff for people, btw, but I am very slow/in-efficient and I don't have a proper work shop(just one of the reasons for the low efficiency). I am currently finishing up a very special re-engineering project for Matt to get him speakers comparable to Revel Salon 2, and even superior in many ways, but for much lower cost of course, and I am working on a extremely special completely original design for another person.

-Chris

Wow Chris, what can I say. Thanks for all of your input. Not really sure which way I am going to go just yet. But, I assure you that a change is coming. I have my 170's more or less paid off now. Really need to get my 42" LCD paid off before I purchase anything else. If everything goes as planned, then my LCD will be paid off in a couple of months. By then, I will have a better idea of what is the best direction to go in. Lets just say, I have to work out a few things before jumping into the DIY thing. More on that later. But, thank you once again for your time. Both you and Andrew deserve a round of applause in my book. Happy New Year!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil