Inexpensive sealed subs?

[lsiberian]

I have been tempted to try this guy from accessories.....all the specs look good on it...It may be a good sub for music and will still get down to 27hz....plus the wireless is a great option for placement options.

Maybe somebody on the Forum has some experience with these.

BOSTON ACOUSTICS Classic Series CPS12Wi Wireless Ready Powered Woofer Cherry | Accessories4less

Go with HSU or SVS. You will have a better driver IMO.

 

[mike c]

i don't really understand the graphs especially the waterfalls and GD's

but here's what i experienced for music:
SB13 > Sealed PB13 > Ported PB13

if you look at the THD's of the above, it actually gets "cleaner" going to the right due to the enclosure size and air resistance, but my subjective preference is the opposite

subjective opinion:
-the ported sub's output at the bottom end is always noticeable, and not necessarily wanted in music
-the sealed PB13 never had the same sound as the SB13, especially in the midbass due to, i guess, the small enclosure

i'm thinking there's some order of harmonic distortion that people (I) want to hear or expect.

 

[KEW]

Fortunately it isn't a huge deal. The only question I'd have is if you'd want Audyssey on or not.

With it off, there's a quicker switch which is good for audio memory.

With it on, I think you'd eliminate some of the FR variations which could impact perceptions. At the same time though, that blurs things in other ways, given that FR is related to things like group delay.

I guess it depends on how good your room is. A bad room mode could obliterate everything. I'd say try it without first and if both subs sound bad, employ Audyssey

Either way, it'd give me something to do tomorrow night (in laws are in town at the moment, so no experiments for me tonight).





It's my guilty pleasure movie I think I've watched it about 100 times now...

Cool, I could use some guilty pleasure!

 

[Steve81]

I guess it depends on how good your room is. A bad room mode could obliterate everything. I'd say try it without first and if both subs sound bad, employ Audyssey

FR in the subwoofer range (80Hz on down) isn't too shabby, although I've not measured things like decay. In any case, I've purchased the tune in question and to gain some frame of reference, I've given it a couple listens on my Grado SR225s. I'll see just how attuned my hearing is tonight.

 

[GranteedEV]

As I understand it, a sealed or acoustic suspension sub has the advantage of using the pressure inside the cabinet to better control the motion of the driver.

This is true of a sealed box OR a ported box. Remember also that you don't necessarily want a box controlling the driver motion beyond a certain amount. If it's "pulling the driver back" after an excursion, that also means it was making it harder for the driver to make that excursion in the first place.

There's multiple factors - motor design, spider design, surround design, and box design - that should be weighed appropriately. Looking at one aspect alone is asking for trouble.

I know a ported sub can be tight, but I believe more money has to go into the driver to get there.

Actually, it's the sealed driver that normally needs more money, because it alone is responsible for output lower in frequency. Because of this, it has to be optimized for much longer excursions and have a very low resonance frequency. As a result, a small driver made to go low sealed, will have VERY low efficiency.

Hard to generalize I know, but I thought sealed goes lower, well because after the port tuning is hit the response falls off a cliff

By the time sealed officially goes lower, generally both systems will not be producing useful output, unless the room gives very generous pressure vessel gain.

As far as measurements shown in this thread, a few things I would warn against:

- look at the frequency response. if it's not the same, then obviously the waterfall and impulse response can't be the same. What if you shaped the knee of the ported design to match the sealed design or vice versa? Then you have the same frequency response but finally you can compare the differences (which will mostly be in headroom, as the sealed might have a bit more an octave below the vented's tuning, and the vented will have a lot more at and around its tuning. the other difference is physical size)

- those measurements are taken in isolation - IE a vacuum. They will simply be nothing like that for either system when placed into a room.

 

[lsiberian]

i don't really understand the graphs especially the waterfalls and GD's

but here's what i experienced for music:
SB13 > Sealed PB13 > Ported PB13

if you look at the THD's of the above, it actually gets "cleaner" going to the right due to the enclosure size and air resistance, but my subjective preference is the opposite

subjective opinion:
-the ported sub's output at the bottom end is always noticeable, and not necessarily wanted in music
-the sealed PB13 never had the same sound as the SB13, especially in the midbass due to, i guess, the small enclosure

i'm thinking there's some order of harmonic distortion that people (I) want to hear or expect.

That's because in the music range you have lower distortion in a sealed sub. A sealed sub get's louder in the sweet spot music range. Ports are used to extend, but you do sacrifice headroom up high.

 

[Steve81]

I'll see just how attuned my hearing is tonight.

Apparently not very

Leaving Audyssey off for this test, and switching among the modes a few times while repeating "Hey Nineteen" didn't reveal any significant differences in tightness to my ears. FYI, I also had the receiver master volume set to -10dB which corresponded to volume levels between ~70 and ~80dB on my SPL meter. It's possible with a faster switching system, or changing a few parameters (especially volume) that differences among the various modes might become more readily apparent. Still, for "comfortable" (to me) listening levels, I don't expect I'd be able to do much in a blind test.

 

[Steve81]

That's because in the music range you have lower distortion in a sealed sub. A sealed sub get's louder in the sweet spot music range. Ports are used to extend, but you do sacrifice headroom up high.

In this particular instance, with respect to the sealed mode of the PB13U and the 20Hz mode, even at the 110dB level power compression, distortion hovers around the 2.5%-3.5% mark only exceeding 5% around 20Hz in native tuning (20Hz mode); the sealed mode keeps distortion quite low in the music range, but doesn't appear to perform any better than native tune (not that 20Hz mode leaves a heck of a lot of room for improvement in any case); further, CEA 2010 measurements indicate the 20Hz mode has greater output at every frequency measured at and above tuning.

 

[KEW]

It would have been exciting if you had noticed a distinct difference, but that was probably too much to expect. We see the differences in the measurements, but the performance is still very good in the case of the 20Hz port config. As you say it could be audible with an instantaneous switch setup.

 

[Steve81]

It would have been exciting if you had noticed a distinct difference, but that was probably too much to expect. We see the differences in the measurements, but the performance is still very good in the case of the 20Hz port config. As you say it could be audible with an instantaneous switch setup.

What can I say, I find the results of playing around with the PB13 pretty interesting in trying to correlate measured performance with my perceptions. One thing I didn't expect was being very impressed with the HT performance in sealed mode relative to the ported modes in spite of the huge output differences down low; some of it has to do with the fact that I'm not pushing the volume very hard these days, but I found sealed mode to be more than satisfactory in its ability to deliver the goods watching Kung Fu Panda and Cars 2.

 

[lsiberian]

In this particular instance, with respect to the sealed mode of the PB13U and the 20Hz mode, even at the 110dB level power compression, distortion hovers around the 2.5%-3.5% mark only exceeding 5% around 20Hz in native tuning (20Hz mode); the sealed mode keeps distortion quite low in the music range, but doesn't appear to perform any better than native tune (not that 20Hz mode leaves a heck of a lot of room for improvement in any case); further, CEA 2010 measurements indicate the 20Hz mode has greater output at every frequency measured at and above tuning.

That sub was engineered to be used in 20hz mode. The sealed plugs are nice, but not reflective of a sub engineered for an optimal sealed alignment. An SB13 would be a more accurate comparison. The Jl Audio Fathom tested higher in the music range than even the TC Sounds LMS Ultra. Of course you pay a premium for JL audio, but it still demonstrates the difference well.

The conclusion makes sense from physics perspective too. That said I'd not get too worried unless your distortion really gets out of control.

 

[KEW]

This is true of a sealed box OR a ported box. Remember also that you don't necessarily want a box controlling the driver motion beyond a certain amount. If it's "pulling the driver back" after an excursion, that also means it was making it harder for the driver to make that excursion in the first place.

There's multiple factors - motor design, spider design, surround design, and box design - that should be weighed appropriately. Looking at one aspect alone is asking for trouble.



Actually, it's the sealed driver that normally needs more money, because it alone is responsible for output lower in frequency. Because of this, it has to be optimized for much longer excursions and have a very low resonance frequency. As a result, a small driver made to go low sealed, will have VERY low efficiency.

In the $100-$400 range I don't expect low output from a sealed sub. About halfway through the post, I corrected my OP and recognized what I was really after was a "woofer" to complement BS speakers. I was thinking of the new Pioneer BS22's and what to recommend for someone wanting a music only 2.1 for $300-$500 (speakers + sub). It seems that the subs in this price range cannot match the ability of the Pioneers, and my theory is that a sealed (sub)woofer with limited output and an F3 around 40Hz could be made for this price with an "acts of omission, not comission" philosophy. The ported subs I have listened to in this price range seem pretty "loose".
The NHT Super 8 seems to do this for $350 which is not too bad, but it would be nice to find something else for someone with a smaller budget (sacrificing the gloss finish and the 3 year amp warranty for a one year warranty for starters).

NHT Super 8
Frequency Response: -3dB 37Hz - 210Hz, -10dB 30Hz
Peak output @1M: 112dB @65Hz, 106dB @40Hz

Ultimately, I am looking for an "odd man out". Most people spending 100-400 on a sub at Best Buy are interested in low & loud (which makes sense for HT). I can't blame the manufacturers to target this market, but it would be nice if someone made a music oriented (sub)woofer for complementing small bookshelf speakers in the $250 price range. My thinking is this would be a sealed unit, based on the inexpensive acoustic suspension speakers of the 70's I am familiar with, but if it can be done in a ported design for the same price, that would work.

 

[Steve81]

That sub was engineered to be used in 20hz mode. The sealed plugs are nice, but not reflective of a sub engineered for an optimal sealed alignment. An SB13 would be a more accurate comparison.

Fair enough. Of course, one might note that the PB13U isn't a whit inferior in terms of output capability from 20Hz-120Hz versus the sealed DD18+, nor does it appear to lag in terms of distortion either. OTOH, the Epik Empire can handily exceed either from 63Hz on up in output capability.

That said I'd not get too worried unless your distortion really gets out of control.

Suffice it to say, at the levels I find myself listening to music, I don't think its a problem I'll face.

 

[Alex2507]

I thought I'd throw this option in because Matt34 had them.

Amazon.com: ()Premier Acoustic PA-120 Titanium Subwoofer - Black: Electronics

He also had an inexpensive 8" sub I think that he was pretty happy with but I wasn't able to track it down.

I don't think it's sealed but skimming the thread led me to believe that you were looking for a cheap sub to recommend to others. I think that one actually looks good too.

 

[KEW]

The discussion of this thread has led to refinement of what I am looking for. It is really more woofer (to help out BS speakers) than subwoofer:

I was thinking of the new Pioneer BS22's and what to recommend for someone wanting a music only 2.1 for $300-$500 (speakers + sub). It seems that the subs in this price range cannot match the ability of the Pioneers, and my theory is that a sealed (sub)woofer with limited output and an F3 around 40Hz could be made for this price with an "acts of omission, not comission" philosophy. The ported subs I have listened to in this price range seemed pretty "loose".
The NHT Super 8 seems to do this for $350 which is not too bad, but it would be nice to find something else for someone with a smaller budget (sacrificing some of NHT's quality, the gloss finish, and the 3 year amp warranty for a one year warranty for starters).
Quote:
NHT Super 8
Frequency Response: -3dB 37Hz - 210Hz, -10dB 30Hz
Peak output @1M: 112dB @65Hz, 106dB @40Hz
Ultimately, I am looking for an "odd man out". Most people spending 100-400 on a sub at Best Buy are interested in low & loud (which makes sense for HT). I can't blame the manufacturers to target this market, but it would be nice if someone made a music oriented (sub)woofer for complementing small bookshelf speakers in the $250 price range. My thinking is this would be a sealed unit, based on the inexpensive acoustic suspension speakers of the 70's I am familiar with, but if it can be done in a ported design for the same price, that would work.

 

[Steve81]

The discussion of this thread has led to refinement of what I am looking for. It is really more woofer (to help out BS speakers) than subwoofer:

IMO, something like the Hsu VTF-1 could be an interesting option for you with its multiple tuning options (32Hz, 25Hz, and sealed modes) and Q control. If nothing else, there are enough options that you can occupy yourself futzing around with it for a while

 

[psbfan9]

IMO, something like the Hsu VTF-1 could be an interesting option for you with its multiple tuning options (32Hz, 25Hz, and sealed modes) and Q control. If nothing else, there are enough options that you can occupy yourself futzing around with it for a while

I'm considering a new a sub, and I keep coming back to this one. I was hoping Rythmik would have the FV12 back in stock by now... So the Hsu (She) VTF-1 or 2, is looking good.

KEW, for the budget and requirements you have, it seems the Hsu STF -1 or STF 2 would suit your needs as well.

Good luck and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on what ever you choose.

 

[KEW]

The least expensive Hsu option is the STF-1 at $335 shipped.

If NHT has the free shipping both ways, I should give it a trial.

Another factor here is somewhat not wanting low extension. After all, in this budget range, having some form of room EQ to handle room nodes is not especially likely. Going back to my youth, room nodes did not seem to be a big problem. This could be because you had two speakers playing the bass or because the speakers generally did not cover the 20-40Hz octave, or both.

Any thoughts/experiences with nodes above 40 Hz?

Thanks!

 

[oppman99]

The discussion of this thread has led to refinement of what I am looking for. It is really more woofer (to help out BS speakers) than subwoofer:

I don't know how the Energy Esw-m8 ($300) compares to the HSU, but I have been using one with powered studio monitors and it does a fantastic job with music. Definitely plays clean and tight and I'm used to bass from a JL Fathom. I am amazed at the performance from such a small cube. It is the same sub as the Mirage mm8.

 

[lsiberian]

The least expensive Hsu option is the STF-1 at $335 shipped.

If NHT has the free shipping both ways, I should give it a trial.

Another factor here is somewhat not wanting low extension. After all, in this budget range, having some form of room EQ to handle room nodes is not especially likely. Going back to my youth, room nodes did not seem to be a big problem. This could be because you had two speakers playing the bass or because the speakers generally did not cover the 20-40Hz octave, or both.

Any thoughts/experiences with nodes above 40 Hz?

Thanks!

They are both quality units, but I personally would lean toward the HSU. You don't need EQ for anything. Many folks never use it and are very happy with their setup. Very rarely do subs get bad reviews by listeners because who can hate those wonderful machines that shake the very fiber of our beings. You really can't make a bad choice here.

I realize I for one am often overly critical of the lower priced stuff, but really you don't need a 10,000 dollar system for good sound. I started with a system below 500 and someday I do miss those budget speakers when I look at my bank accounts. Whatever you do. Don't start building your own. It is a money pit.