Inexpensive sealed subs?

[KEW]

As I understand it, a sealed or acoustic suspension sub has the advantage of using the pressure inside the cabinet to better control the motion of the driver.
This makes for tighter performance at the expense of the extension and max SPL offered by porting.
I know a ported sub can be tight, but I believe more money has to go into the driver to get there.
The least expensive sealed option I know of is the new SB1000 from SVS at $500.
Are there any less expensive sealed subs in the $100 to 400 range?

 

[jcl]

NHT's subs are all sealed. Best Subwoofers Online | High Quality Home Theater Subwoofer Reviews
I'm not sure how they compare (ok, it probably doesn't) to the SVS but the super 8 is < $400.

Atlantic Technology also makes sealed subs. Atlantic Technology - Subwoofers
The 224 lists for $600. It can be found b stock for < $400. Also the audioholics store had a 40% off Atlantic Technology speakers for black Friday sale, but it may still be on.

Here's a pretty glowing review of the AT444, much bigger brother of the 224 - http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-reviews/62547-atlantic-technology-444sb-subwoofer-review.html#axzz2Dfy8heRH

The Epik Legends are dual opposed sealed. They were selling for $399 for 'cyber' week sale. I was interested, then I read on other forums about people still having issues with the amps and now having issues with customer service so I decided to pass.

 

[Steve81]

I know a ported sub can be tight, but I believe more money has to go into the driver to get there.

To offer a thought:

With a ported subwoofer, more care has to be taken in the design to ensure ringing and GD is minimized, but this doesn't necessarily have to be costly. For example, say what you will about CHT, but this the VS 18.1 is a fantastic performer when looking at the waterfall, group delay, and impulse response.

Data-Bass

In fact, it's waterfall is a good bit nicer than the sealed Epik Empire

Data-Bass

OTOH, if you want to match the CHT's output capability around tuning in a sealed form factor, you're going to have to incur additional costs. At 25Hz, the CHT with the Sub 1 amp has a 6dB advantage on the Epik; as you're probably aware, that means you'd need a pair of stacked Empires to match the CHT here.

 

[jostenmeat]

As I understand it, a sealed or acoustic suspension sub has the advantage of using the pressure inside the cabinet to better control the motion of the driver.
This makes for tighter performance at the expense of the extension and max SPL offered by porting.
I know a ported sub can be tight, but I believe more money has to go into the driver to get there.
The least expensive sealed option I know of is the new SB1000 from SVS at $500.
Are there any less expensive sealed subs in the $100 to 400 range?

Hard to generalize I know, but I thought sealed goes lower, well because after the port tuning is hit the response falls off a cliff. So then maybe you're thinking, "well, when we are comparing the same budget it's not necessarily so". Could be, I don't know. But for those who want higher output with a sealed sub, it's possible more of the cost/budget goes towards amplification as well. Also, I always thought it was the sealed subs that required more expensive drivers as there is more asked of them. A lot of the bigger/biggest ported subs, or horns and what not, can use pretty affordable drivers. They're just beastly large is all. It's probably not the same value, but the Martin Logan Dynamo 700 comes somewhat close with street price to the SVS, and is wireless if that might help you get the best response.

 

[jcl]

Audioholics has an article on the sealed vs. ported debate, but in terms of sealed vs. ported speakers. I believe many of the same concepts apply to subs as well.

Sealed vs Ported Loudspeakers: Which is Better? &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics

For < $400 you're not going to get reference levels at 20hz, ported or sealed, but I think you know that. Inexpensive, small sealed subs are more about fitting into decor and augmenting bass.

 

[KEW]

To offer a thought:

With a ported subwoofer, more care has to be taken in the design to ensure ringing and GD is minimized, but this doesn't necessarily have to be costly. For example, say what you will about CHT, but this the VS 18.1 is a fantastic performer when looking at the waterfall, group delay, and impulse response.

Data-Bass

In fact, it's waterfall is a good bit nicer than the sealed Epik Empire

Data-Bass

OTOH, if you want to match the CHT's output capability around tuning in a sealed form factor, you're going to have to incur additional costs. At 25Hz, the CHT with the Sub 1 amp has a 6dB advantage on the Epik; as you're probably aware, that means you'd need a pair of stacked Empires to match the CHT here.

You make a pretty good argument, but this is not so inexpensive as it sounds The $700 sub does not include an amp ($350 for the CHT amp) or shipping ($190). The final cost is $1240 delivered.

If you could find data on a $100 - $400 ported sub showing good waterfall, group delay, impulse response, I would be sold.

As a counterargument (though I know nothing of cost or other factors), I would offer the two DIY builds using 21SW152-4 drivers in ported and sealed configurations.
The group delay and impulse response of the sealed are stellar!

Ported
Data-Bass
Sealed
Data-Bass

What I am after is a recommendation for someone with a small room who is listening exclusively to music and would like to spend ~$300 for a sub.
From an acts of omission are better than acts of comission standpoint I have to believe a sealed sub would do the job better (though it may be anemic on SPL and extension).

It amazes me that the sealed Hsu ULS-15 has not been measured yet, but Hsu bills this as their most musical sub (even though they sell the more expensive ported VTF-15H). I have to believe there is something to this. I would love to compare group delay and impulse response between these two 15" Hsu subs!

 

[KEW]

Hard to generalize I know, but I thought sealed goes lower, well because after the port tuning is hit the response falls off a cliff.

I keep getting into trouble on this!
It is semantics and I guess I need to relearn my usage. Generally speaking the ported sub will maintain a flatter frequency response until it falls off of the cliff. I should restate it as a lower -3dB frequency point instead of extension.

 

[Steve81]

You make a pretty good argument, but this is not so inexpensive as it sounds The $700 sub does not include an amp ($350 for the CHT amp) or shipping ($190). The final cost is $1240 delivered.

If you could find data on a $100 - $400 ported sub showing good waterfall, group delay, impulse response, I would be sold.

The CHT isn't inexpensive in absolute terms, but with the level of performance factored in, it's dirt cheap. I don't believe there is any special reason why a ported sub in the $100-400 range couldn't deliver such performance but with lower output capabilities/extension. Unfortunately, as you imply, the trick is finding the ones that meet that criteria, and there's really not that much data on hand for a large number of subs in that price bracket.

Of course, I would also note, and as the Epik's waterfall is evidence of, just because a subwoofer is sealed doesn't mean it will be perfect in the time domain.

 

[KEW]

It is also revealing what happens with the SVS PB13 Ultra waterfall and group delay when you open up the ports:
Sealed:

Both ports open:

Sealed:

Both ports open:

Sealed:

Both ports open:

I believe the PB13 Ultra was designed primarily as a ported sub, with the sealed configuration as a tuning option.

I'll bet when Josh measures the SB13-Ultra it will have better transients than the PB-13 in sealed configuration (since the SB13 was designed to be sealed from inception).

 

[lsiberian]

Sealed drivers are much more expensive to make than Ported ones because they require massive voice coils, big amps and EQ.

A ported sub needs a big box, but wood is cheaper than the massive voice coil.

Ported subs are superior for audio if you have an optimal alignment and the floorspace.

That said a quality sealed sub is sufficient enough for great sound that it makes porting unnecessary if you wish to have a more portable and smaller sub.

But you won't get 120db out of a sealed sub at 20hz because the sub is limited by the size of the box. A ported sub is not limited by box size and can deliver that much SPL at 20hz.

But 120db is like a jet engine taking off in your living room. A jackhammer is loud enough for me.

 

[Steve81]

It is also revealing what happens with the SVS PB13 Ultra waterfall and group delay when you open up the ports.

Indeed. Of course, if you look at the 15Hz tune, you'll note that while there is group delay/ringing below 20Hz, above that mark, it's good and clean. In testing out 15Hz mode vs sealed mode, I've not been able to discern any special difference when listening to music in sealed mode vs 15Hz tune. For fun I even set things up for sealed mode for a week. While it was an enlightening experience, I didn't feel like I lost anything when I went back to 15Hz tune. YMMV of course.

I believe the PB13 Ultra was designed primarily as a ported sub, with the sealed configuration as a tuning option.

I'll bet when Josh measures the SB13-Ultra it will have better transients than the PB-13 in sealed configuration (since the SB13 was designed to be sealed from inception).

While some improvement in various aspects is possible if not probable, in terms of basic measured performance with respect to the time domain, the PB13U in sealed mode doesn't leave a lot of room for improvement. Even the vaunted Velo DD18+ doesn't do a whit better on the waterfall or impulse response.

 

[JonnyFive23517]

The least expensive sealed option I know of is the new SB1000 from SVS at $500.

I've got the SB-13 and that thing is a beast. If I was looking for something smaller and sealed, I would consider the SB1000 option pretty seriously. I've been nothing but pleased with SVS, and I think if you buy two they give you a discount on the pair. Dual SB1000's would be pretty sweet.

 

[KEW]

Indeed. Of course, if you look at the 15Hz tune, you'll note that while there is group delay/ringing below 20Hz, above that mark, it's good and clean. In testing out 15Hz mode vs sealed mode, I've not been able to discern any special difference when listening to music in sealed mode vs 15Hz tune. For fun I even set things up for sealed mode for a week. While it was an enlightening experience, I didn't feel like I lost anything when I went back to 15Hz tune. YMMV of course.

I chose the 20Hz chart because that is the "fully ported" configuration. I believe the 15Hz only has one port open.

While some improvement in various aspects is possible if not probable, in terms of basic measured performance with respect to the time domain, the PB13U in sealed mode doesn't leave a lot of room for improvement. Even the vaunted Velo DD18+ doesn't do a whit better on the waterfall or impulse response.

You are probably right there. THe PB13U in sealed mode does do well. where I would be expect the SB13U to clean up, is the waterfall chart. I would expect the rigidity afforded by the smaller box would pay off in spades (though that may not be true if the PB13U is extremely well braced - I know it is not poorly braced).

I might suggest "Hey Nineteen" from Steely Dan's Gaucho album as a good test of sub articulation/tightness. However, in the case of different settings of the PB13U, the difference may be inaudible. I wonder if teh 20Hz setting would reveal a difference you could hear?

You can hear the pattern I refer to in the mp3 clip:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004YX39/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

 

[Steve81]

I chose the 20Hz chart because that is the "fully ported" configuration. I believe the 15Hz only has one port open.

FYI, the PB13U has three ports; 20Hz mode is the native tune with all ports open; 15Hz plugs one port, so two are left open. There used to be a 10Hz mode with only one port open.

You are probably right there. THe PB13U in sealed mode does do well. where I would be expect the SB13U to clean up, is the waterfall chart. I would expect the rigidity afforded by the smaller box would pay off in spades (though that may not be true if the PB13U is extremely well braced - I know it is not poorly braced).

Doesn't look too bad to be sure.

I might suggest "Hey Nineteen" from Steely Dan's Gaucho album as a good test of sub articulation/tightness. However, in the case of different settings of the PB13U, the difference may be inaudible. I wonder if teh 20Hz setting would reveal a difference you could hear?

I can certainly give it a shot some time. Can't say I've spent much time listening to Steely Dan, so I'm not familiar with that one. What I've been using lately (and imagine would make for a decent test) is the bass battle scene from Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Two fast paced bass guitars trying to outdo each other ought to lead to some blurring of notes on lesser subs, but I've never found it to sound "slow" or blurred in either mode, but I may just not be picky enough either.

With respect to 20Hz mode, I need to test it a little more thoroughly. I set it there once, ran Audyssey calibration, and didn't like the results (a bit boomy). The big caveat though is that I screwed up mic placement a bit, and the results were a bit out of whack.

 

[KEW]

Sealed drivers are much more expensive to make than Ported ones because they require massive voice coils, big amps and EQ.

A ported sub needs a big box, but wood is cheaper than the massive voice coil.

Ported subs are superior for audio if you have an optimal alignment and the floorspace.

That said a quality sealed sub is sufficient enough for great sound that it makes porting unnecessary if you wish to have a more portable and smaller sub.

But you won't get 120db out of a sealed sub at 20hz because the sub is limited by the size of the box. A ported sub is not limited by box size and can deliver that much SPL at 20hz.

But 120db is like a jet engine taking off in your living room. A jackhammer is loud enough for me.

You are talking exactly the opposite of my interest which helped me!
Reading this, I realize that I am not really looking for a subwoofer, I am looking for a competent woofer to round out BS speakers on a tight budget!

There are always people looking for an inexpensive stereo setup ($300-$400 for speakers). Right now, I would direct them to a pair of Pioneer FS52 speakers ($260). However, these really don't have the kind of solid bass I would like to recommend. They are good for the ~5" woofers, but don't compare to the 10"-12" acoustic suspension woofers I grew up with. The remaining budget of $40-$140 isn't going to supply that extra bass.
So the next thought is if you need a sub anyway, why not switch to a 2.1 system using Pioneer BS22 speakers with "sub".
For a $400 speaker budget, trying to reach 20Hz seems counterproductive. Playing down to 35-40Hz and doing it well would be great! With the budget constraint, I also wouldn't expect over 90db (including room gain), as long as it "topped out" gracefully.
I think the NHT 8" sub is probably perfect except it would completely blow the budget.

So let me revamp this.

Any ideas on a (sub)woofer to complement the Pioneer BS22 (or other small BS) speakers:
Pioneer SP-BS22-LR Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

The bottom end is roughly 70Hz, so about 100Hz would be the crossover point and rolling off at 35-40 hz.

I see this as a very useful product, but the problem is this product would result in lots of returns if it was in Best Buy unless it was marketed as being something other than a subwoofer in the normal HT sense.

 

[KEW]

Doesn't look too bad to be sure.

That does look awfully nice - you've undoubtedly got a great sub

I can certainly give it a shot some time. Can't say I've spent much time listening to Steely Dan, so I'm not familiar with that one. What I've been using lately (and imagine would make for a decent test) is the bass battle scene from Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Two fast paced bass guitars trying to outdo each other ought to lead to some blurring of notes on lesser subs, but I've never found it to sound "slow" or blurred in either mode, but I may just not be picky enough either.

With respect to 20Hz mode, I need to test it a little more thoroughly. I set it there once, ran Audyssey calibration, and didn't like the results (a bit boomy). The big caveat though is that I screwed up mic placement a bit, and the results were a bit out of whack.

That would be really nice for you to revisit. We have measurements of both and if you could determine a decisive audible difference (which is difficult to be certain of), it would help define "how much is too much"!

The Steely Dan has a very tight kick drum with the bass. I believe it would be more revealing than two bass guitars (though I have not watched that DVD - just got it yesterday, coincidentally!)

 

[jcl]

You are talking exactly the opposite of my interest which helped me!
Reading this, I realize that I am not really looking for a subwoofer, I am looking for a competent woofer to round out BS speakers on a tight budget!

There are always people looking for an inexpensive stereo setup ($300-$400 for speakers). Right now, I would direct them to a pair of Pioneer FS52 speakers ($260). However, these really don't have the kind of solid bass I would like to recommend. They are good for the ~5" woofers, but don't compare to the 10"-12" acoustic suspension woofers I grew up with. The remaining budget of $40-$140 isn't going to supply that extra bass.
So the next thought is if you need a sub anyway, why not switch to a 2.1 system using Pioneer BS22 speakers with "sub".
For a $400 speaker budget, trying to reach 20Hz seems counterproductive. Playing down to 35-40Hz and doing it well would be great! With the budget constraint, I also wouldn't expect over 90db (including room gain), as long as it "topped out" gracefully.
I think the NHT 8" sub is probably perfect except it would completely blow the budget.

So let me revamp this.

Any ideas on a (sub)woofer to complement the Pioneer BS22 (or other small BS) speakers:
Pioneer SP-BS22-LR Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

The bottom end is roughly 70Hz, so about 100Hz would be the crossover point and rolling off at 35-40 hz.

I see this as a very useful product, but the problem is this product would result in lots of returns if it was in Best Buy unless it was marketed as being something other than a subwoofer in the normal HT sense.

I think now you're simply looking at the good bargain subs like -
Outlaw M8 $249 new / $225 b-stock
Hsu STF1 $299

 

[Steve81]

That would be really nice for you to revisit.

We have measurements of both and if you could determine a decisive audible difference (which is difficult to be certain of), it would help define "how much is too much"!

Fortunately it isn't a huge deal. The only question I'd have is if you'd want Audyssey on or not.

With it off, there's a quicker switch which is good for audio memory.

With it on, I think you'd eliminate some of the FR variations which could impact perceptions. At the same time though, that blurs things in other ways, given that FR is related to things like group delay.

Either way, it'd give me something to do tomorrow night (in laws are in town at the moment, so no experiments for me tonight).

The Steely Dan has a very tight kick drum with the bass. I believe it would be more revealing than two bass guitars (though I have not watched that DVD - just got it yesterday, coincidentally!)

It's my guilty pleasure movie I think I've watched it about 100 times now...

 

[KEW]

I think now you're simply looking at the good bargain subs like -
Outlaw M8 $249 new / $225 b-stock
Hsu STF1 $299

Yeah, I guess the objective is to avoid a sub that puts money into attempting to hit 20Hz instead of doing a good job playing a more reasonable range. I suspect the 8" Outlaw is a decent option.
I also found this which looks like a nice deal (at least during the current discount-$250 each)
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ACENAEGOSUB/ACOUSTIC-ENERGY-AEGO-AE12-08-T-Series-200-Watt-Dual-8in-Subwoofer-Black/1.html#!more

 

[Jeff R.]

I have been tempted to try this guy from accessories.....all the specs look good on it...It may be a good sub for music and will still get down to 27hz....plus the wireless is a great option for placement options.

Maybe somebody on the Forum has some experience with these.

BOSTON ACOUSTICS Classic Series CPS12Wi Wireless Ready Powered Woofer Cherry | Accessories4less