Incorrect or correct? That is the question.

[zumbo]

Agreed. All please note that I never had a problem with zumbo's explanation of speaker sensitivity. I went into a little more detail, but I didn't criticize it at all. My issue was with the "twice as loud" comment, as stated 100x.

Bull$hit.

Agreed? After all this! This thread was not put here for you to agree with. You had your chance a week ago.

It is here to help educate any members interested, myself included.

 

[OttoMatic]

Bull$hit.

Agreed? After all this! This thread was not put here for you to agree with. You had your chance a week ago.

It is here to help educate any members interested, myself included.

zumbo, I really don't know what you problem is at this point. I can agree with him if I want. He said it right, as did I.

I've told you over and over and over, the only thing I had a problem with was the "twice as loud" comment. I didn't disagree with your sensitivity comments. I never disagree with someones favorite speakers. I don't disagree with whatever your favorite color might be.

I disagreed with a technicality. You didn't like it. But I'm right. I've been wrong plenty of times, and I suck up and admit it. We did this in the bi-amp thread where you laughably told me that my speakers aren't bi-amped. You refused to read links. You told me the only way to bi-amp was with an acitve crossover. You apparently refuse to do the test with your SPL meter. You claim you want to learn in this thread, but all you do is whine.

At this point, this thread is just here for entertainment, right? I mean, what's your point other than to yell at me?

 

[zumbo]

At this point, this thread is just here for entertainment, right? I mean, what's your point other than to yell at me?

Actually, it's here to help people learn about speaker ratings. It must be hard for them to do that, when someone keeps talking about an SPL meter test at home.

Honestly, I would rather you not have ever found this thread. You change the direction of thoughts away from the point.

The point is, to help others understand what speaker sensitivity is.

An SPL meter measures sound pressure level.
The definition of sound pressure level is loudness.

 

[mtrycrafts]

An SPL meter measures sound pressure level.
The definition of sound pressure level is loudness.

Here is a link with extensive explanations with further links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure

 

[Adam]

Actually it is about perception. You keep defending yourself and saying a 3 dB more sensitive speaker doubles the SPL. It does not - it requires half the *power* to reach the same SPL or conversely feeding a speaker double the power increases the SPL by 3 dB.

What our ears perceive as being twice as loud requires anywhere from 6 dB to 10 dB increase in SPL as has been said many times already. In terms of power that means 4x - 10x as much power.

You were 100% correct in your explanation of speaker sensitivity and the resultant power requirements but 'loudness' is a function of our perception.

Just want to say that I agree with MDS and OttoM in terms of perceived loudness. Perception is what this is all about, zumbo. You wanted to recommend a set of speakers to someone, and you wanted them to be able to drive them to pleasing levels (I'm assuming) with their budget receiver. I applaud you for that. It's great that you wanted to help them out, and then started this thread to discuss this topic. A pleasing level, however, is completely subjective. Also, you can't take human perception out of an argument regarding how "loud" something is, because loudness is a reference to hearing - and that's one of our senses for perceiving the world around us.

Another side of subjectivity is that someone may not prefer the sonic characteristics of a particular speaker that is more efficient speaker versus another one that is less efficient. My NHTs aren't very efficient, but I like them more than others that I auditioned that were more efficient (hence, they are the ones that I bought ). I would much rather listen to them at lower levels than one of the other speaker brands at high levels.

Anyway, good topic. Take it easy.

 

[OttoMatic]

Actually, it's here to help people learn about speaker ratings.

Actually, the TITLE OF THE THREAD is "Incorrect or correct".

Furthermore, from your very first post, which started this thread:

So, here it is. Let me have it boys.

The problem is that you can't deal with "it" now that you have "it".

Honestly, I would rather you not have ever found this thread.

??? Then why post in in a public forum that I frequent?

The point is, to help others understand what speaker sensitivity is.

See the top of this post...

An SPL meter measures sound pressure level.
The definition of sound pressure level is loudness.

You sure? Really?

From the Wikipedia entry for "Loudness":

Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels.

For reference, their discussion on SPL.

I've offered you links in the past, and you've refused to read them. I'm pretty sure the same will apply to these. You've told me that you don't care about definitions. If, as you've stated in this thread, you want to "learn", then I urge you to read up on those two links.

And now we've come full circle. My contentions with your posts come from you stating AS FACT things that are patently incorrect. To wit:

An SPL meter measures sound pressure level.
The definition of sound pressure level is loudness.

QED.

Have a good night.

 

[zumbo]

I can deal with it.

What I can't deal with, is smarta$$es who have to turn this into a definition war.

The ansewers to my questions have been given.

Perceived loudness? (not my question) No

Higher SPL with lower power input? (better wording) Yes

Lighter load on receiver/amp? Yes

The specs for the Onix x-series are better than the specs for the SVS. The driver size is better as well. All for $8 more. I got myself caught-up in a pain-in-the-a$$ discussion over all that.

If we were to break down definitions to the exact point, we may all look like dumba$$es.

Honestly, I don't see how the dissection of the definitions can help anyone who is trying to learn what the specs of a speaker mean. If anything, this thread may have been more confusing for them than anyone. For me, I just need to use different words for what I mean. New wording listed above, and thanks for the help on that.

Speaker sensitivity is very important when using an underpowered receiver. If anything, I hope the person I was trying to help got this, along with any other person who was patient enough to read this thread.

 

[zumbo]

Just want to say that I agree with MDS and OttoM in terms of perceived loudness. Perception is what this is all about, zumbo. Anyway, good topic. Take it easy.

Glad to see you read the part where I said measurable, not perceived.

This is about using a low-fi receiver in a budget system. While perception may matter to all of you, the low-fi receiver sees the load it sees. D@MN!

And even if it was about an elaborate system, the receiver/amp still sees the load it sees.

 

[Adam]

zumbo, now I feel like you're upset at me, too. Measurable, perceived...whatever. You're going to take your opinion to the grave, as will we, so let's just be done with that part of it.

People buy these systems for enjoyment. If your friend enjoys looking at power draw while holding an SPL meter, great. Otherwise, there's a lot more to enjoying speakers than their specs. That was what my post was about.

 

[zumbo]

zumbo, now I feel like you're upset at me, too. Measurable, perceived...whatever. You're going to take your opinion to the grave, as will we, so let's just be done with that part of it.

People buy these systems for enjoyment. If your friend enjoys looking at power draw while holding an SPL meter, great. Otherwise, there's a lot more to enjoying speakers than their specs. That was what my post was about.

No problem. Worked-up over getting slammed for trying to tell somone why one speakers specs were better than the others. Funny thing, I could care less. I wouldn't buy either one of 'em! It's all about helping someone who would.

BTW, I see in your sig you have a receiver, and an added amp. Wonder why? Poor sensitivity rating on those NHT's?

Yep. 85db

No offense, I think NHT's are great. My sub is an NHT, and I love it. And, at the time I purchased my MB Quarts, NHT and Quart were both part of the Rockford Fosgate family.

 

[Adam]

BTW, I see in your sig you have a receiver, and an added amp. Wonder why? Poor sensitivity rating on those NHT's?

You caught me. Actually, I was going to discuss that above, but deleted it because it didn't seem applicable.

I've had the NHTs for 9.5 years, and I just got the amp two weeks ago. For well over 99% of my listening time, my receiver powers the NHTs just fine. However, I thought that perhaps it was sounding strained at high volumes (at which I very, very rarely ever listen), I was getting the itch to buy something, I hang out on this site and see Emotiva all the time, and *SNAP*, I got the amp. Honestly, I think that it does sound better at higher volumes. I also think that it sounds the same at my regular listening levels. So, I'm happy that I got it for those occasions that I want to crank it, but I didn't really need it.

Did your friend end up buying anything? If so, is he/she happy with it?

 

[zumbo]

Did your friend end up buying anything? If so, is he/she happy with it?

Not a friend. It was a reply to a newbie on the forum. Never heard from the member again after Otto popped-in with all the techno BS that didn't really matter to a newbie on an extreme entry-level system.

Here is the thread, if you feel like reading it. I, on the other hand, just don't enjoy the bickering over such a simple situation as this one.

Post #31 is where I give the response that started this whole thing.

Post #33 is where Otto comes onto the scene.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34246

One can clearly see that post #33 is waaaaaayyyyy over explaining the whole thing to a newbie who states they don't know what driver size means. It is plain as day that the main intention was to battle with me, and not help to the newbie.

Post #36
Then, Otto gets into crossover points. This is where I think the newbie decided it was about over. Yep! Never came back to the thread.

Funny thing. Otto only replied twice. That's all it took to run the newbie off. A potential customer who wanted to purchase the Chinese products so many people around here push.

BTW, was that Emotiva RPA-1 made in China as well?

 

[Adam]

I didn't check the back of my unit, but I'm confident that my RPA-1 was built in China. I know that you're a Made in Germany fan. I would have gone with a made-in-the-USA Outlaw multichannel amp, but their price of admission was too high for my first foray into an outboard amp. I am considering one for my next purchase, though.

 

[OttoMatic]

Never heard from the member again after Otto popped-in with all the techno BS that didn't really matter to a newbie...

...Post #33 is where Otto comes onto the scene...

...One can clearly see that post #33 is waaaaaayyyyy over explaining the ...

...Then, Otto gets into crossover points...

Dude, give it a rest. You're so spun up about this, but you're so wrong.

BTW, the "techno BS" was only there to correct your misleading (at best) information, as described over and over.

This is where I think the newbie decided it was about over. Yep! Never came back to the thread.

Or perhaps he decided it was over when the discussion degenrated to hookers? At least some of those were your posts.

Funny thing. Otto only replied twice. That's all it took to run the newbie off.

This is your assumption. That guy has posted several times in the past few days (not in that thread), so I mustn't have chased him off too much. BTW, how many times do I have to respond to a thread to meet your threshold of approval? Clearly, twice is not enough... Can I use posts about hookers in that post count?

A potential customer who wanted to purchase the Chinese products so many people around here push.

What does this have to do with anything?

Get your facts straight, man, and quit making me look like a bad guy.

Since you want to link to other threads, here's the good ol' bi-amp thread. Look here as zumbo lays out how to bi-amp for everyone!

You're too quick to open your mouth.

Interesting how you neglected to even comment on this post, which wraps up everything perfectly. Can you respond to it, or are you just going to continue to call me names and insinuate that I'm some type of jerk for keeping the facts straight?

 

[zumbo]

Since you want to link to other threads, here's the good ol' bi-amp thread. Look here as zumbo lays out how to bi-amp for everyone!

Sure. Look at that thread. Another fine example of how rude you have been. Look how you come onto the scene like a bully. I was giving an idea to a member who was using mains with 12" woofers, and no sub. While you made the point that bi-amping with a receiver was passive bi-amping, I held close to it actually being nothing more than bi-wiring. Again, you caught me up in technical BS, but one can see that you firmly believed more power could be found in a low to mid-fi receiver by using the passive bi-amp technique under it's own power.

Your statement early on in the thread:

Let's even say that the receiver in question can really only ever supply 50 clean WPC, but it can supply it to all channels (even though it's spec'd to 100 WPC in an effort to boost its specs). So we re-rate it to 50 WPC. Now with a "normal" setup, you can get 50 to each speaker. With the same receiver in a bi-amp setup you can get 100 W (in general) to each speaker. Doesn't matter if it's a great design or not. There is a power difference. If you read both my link and yours, you will also see that there are other potential benefits to bi-amping that aren't necessarily related to power (and I'm not arguing for or against them, but they are different from bi-wiring).

Then, after the OP decides not to passively bi-amp his receiver, you decided to change to this.

Amazing 60+ post on what I thought would have been a simple set-up. But then again there were some excellent thoughts and debate of various theories.

So what I thought I could be done on the RX-V659 of re-routing channels 6&7 to the mains can not be done (only for multi-zone configuration).

I will proceed with using the 659's pre-outs and external amplification. Just watched a ebay auction for a new Behringer EP-1500 closeout at $ 166.66. Add a couple of those puppys.........

That would then properly do what you want. And then we can get into the pro- vs. consumer-amp debate...

Check these out:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1190772290
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1190503599
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1190432800
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1189722821

Just some ideas.

Good luck!

You're too quick to open your mouth.

Interesting how you neglected to even comment on this post, which wraps up everything perfectly. Can you respond to it, or are you just going to continue to call me names and insinuate that I'm some type of jerk for keeping the facts straight?

I believe I have responded to you more than is needed. I may have skipped a few. I was trying to ignore you all together, but you seem to make it impossible for me. As far as name calling, it's all you. In every thread you and I have linked, the name calling is on your end. Once the name calling started, I tried to use PM's to apologize. Apologize to someone who called me ignorant, over and over. Then, in your replies, your tone didn't change. So, please don't PM me, and I promise not to PM you. I have added you to the ignore list. Don't know how that works, but I'm gonna find out.

 

[OttoMatic]

Well, then, you can have the last word.

Good luck, man.

 

[masak_aer]

Good sportsmanship Zumbo & Otto..! It's a good read to go with my morning coffee.

 

[Johnd]

Good sportsmanship Zumbo & Otto..! It's a good read to go with my morning coffee.

I agree masak_aer. Gentleman is not in the vocabulary, is it (at least, it seems, for one of them...I don't care to read the whole thread or track down the other one referenced)?

It seems you've agreed to let it rest. That's good. These things ought to be resolved in pm's.