Incorrect or correct? That is the question.

[zumbo]

If you turn up by 2 dB on the volume knob, you should realize a 2 dB measured gain on an SPL meter. It doesn't have to be in a lab; I can do it in my living room, and so can you!

You test that out, and get back to me. Not gonna happen. "should" is the key word of your reply.

 

[OttoMatic]

I have done it many times, and I assure you it works.

What it's displaying is the output level to your amplifier. If you increase that output level by 3 dB, then your amp's output is increased by 3 dB (yeah, it just doubled the amount of output power). That directly leads to a 3 dB increase in SPL level at the speaker.

So, it has happened in my tests. An x dB delta at the volume knob results in an x dB delta in SPL. I have done many tests of subs using frequency sweeps, pink noise and solid tones (measured into a PC via SPL meter, and less frequently, a mic and preamp). I have measured the frequency responses, under various conditions, of two or three preamps. I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

 

[avaserfi]

I have done it many times, and I assure you it works.

What it's displaying is the output level to your amplifier. If you increase that output level by 3 dB, then your amp's output is increased by 3 dB (yeah, it just doubled the amount of output power). That directly leads to a 3 dB increase in SPL level at the speaker.

I have done the same tests and experiments zumbo while I didn't measure the wattage output to the speakers I did measure SPL and came to the same conclusion Otto is stating here...

 

[zumbo]

I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

It should be easy for a person to figure out that this thread is in the form of a question from the first post.

It is also my intention to discuss something of interest and importance, other than a usual question such as "do you think I should get a or b?". That is why I started this thread.

I am here to learn, and help-out when I can.

Only a few know it all, and have done it all.

 

[zumbo]

I have done the same tests and experiments zumbo while I didn't measure the wattage output to the speakers I did measure SPL and came to the same conclusion Otto is stating here...

I have read many times that the db scale of a receiver/pre-amp is generic, and that it varies from brand to brand?

Do the question marks help this reply?

 

[avaserfi]

I have read many times that the db scale of a receiver/pre-amp is generic, and that it varies?

Do the question marks help this reply?

It might be, that I am not sure about, I have only tried it with my Denon 3806 using the Rives Test Disc via my Oppo 981HD and the increases on the volume display seemed to correlate to the SPL increases equally. Also, when adjusting speaker level, using internal pink noise, the same thing seems to happen. While the changes aren't exactly the same they are very similar.

I am not sure if this is universal or what its just my experience. Maybe you should try with your Yamaha tonight and post back to us.

 

[zumbo]

I can't get to it tonight, but I will. Thanks!

 

[avaserfi]

I can't get to it tonight, but I will. Thanks!

Please post your results as you have me very interested in this now! Also, anyone else who is able should do this. I am pretty curious to see if there is a standard now...

 

[OttoMatic]

It should be easy for a person to figure out that this thread is in the form of a question from the first post.

Is the following a question:

You test that out, and get back to me. Not gonna happen. "should" is the key word of your reply.

The bold part seems as though you're stating some type of fact. However, all responses so far have indicated the opposite... And you've never taken the time to do the test yourself, even though I (and others) have suggested many times that you do so. Instead, you come out all blustery, making blanket statements that only reveal your ignorance of the facts. Please, for your own sake, take just a few minutes to do a little research.

I shouldn't have put "should" in the original post. I should have used "will" and then qualified it with "unless the designer has implemented it incorrectly or in some other indeterminate fashion." If it's marked as "dB" on the dial (as my last three preamps have been), then it should correspond as I have described. If it's not marked as "dB" and is just some other random scale, then it may not correspond to a dB to dB increase as measured in SPL. I have measured one preamp in the past where things were wrongly implented, so it does happen (we all have firmware bugs!).

Good luck with your tests.

Only a few know it all, and have done it all.

If that's aimed at me, it shouldn't be. I certainly don't know everything, and haven't done everything, and I've never claimed that I have!

 

[zumbo]

Is the following a question:



The bold part seems as though you're stating some type of fact. However, all responses so far have indicated the opposite... And you've never taken the time to do the test yourself, even though I (and others) have suggested many times that you do so. Instead, you come out all blustery, making blanket statements that only reveal your ignorance of the facts. Please, for your own sake, take just a few minutes to do a little research.

I shouldn't have put "should" in the original post. I should have used "will" and then qualified it with "unless the designer has implemented it incorrectly or in some other indeterminate fashion." If it's marked as "dB" on the dial (as my last three preamps have been), then it should correspond as I have described. If it's not marked as "dB" and is just some other random scale, then it may not correspond to a dB to dB increase as measured as SPL. I have measured one preamp in the past where things were wrongly implented, so it does happen (we all have firmware bugs!).

Good luck with your tests tonight.

This thread is in the form of a question, open for discussion. Every reply certainly wouldn't be a question.

I think I am gonna check out for a while. Every time I come back to be a part of this forum, there is someone new who knows it all, and is not open to discussion. I never mentioned you were the one I was referring to in my first post in this thread. If anyone looks around, they will find you coming in threads after me attacking me. I could be enjoying my system, instead of wasting my time wondering when you are going to pop in. I have apologized to you over and over in PMs. I have tried to have discussions with you, and you just won't have it. I have no need for this. Heck, my system is done.

OUT!

 

[OttoMatic]

Good for you, zumbo. Enjoy your system!

 

[mtrycrafts]

The db level(I termed as loudness) will be (3db) twice as loud.
.

Yes, that is correct, twice the sound pressure level. Finally.

 

[annunaki]

I have read many times that the db scale of a receiver/pre-amp is generic, and that it varies from brand to brand?

Do the question marks help this reply?

That is typically in their reference to reference level. If that makes sense?

Because receiver Brand A is at -20db and receiver Brand B is at -20db, both on an identical set of speakers, does not mean they will be at the same volume level. However, for that given receiver, the -20db volume setting should be 20db less than reference output level or 0db.

So, with receiver Brand A at reference level (0db volume setting)with Brand X speakers the output level is 102db. At -20db on the volume control the output level is 82db.

Now, on Receiver Brand B with Brand X speakers, again at reference level, the output level is 105db. At -20db on the volume control the output level is at 85db.

Theoretically speaking, assuming distortion levels are completely matched, this would mean that receiver Brand B has twice the output power of receiver Brand A.

I hope this example makes sense for you.

 

[Dolby CP-200]

I think a good array of matching cinema professional loudspeakers would suffice, providing of course you have the room to install them they can be most efficient in realism.

If you reversed the phase of one, loudspeaker then it would reduce by -3db. Don’t quote me on that I only see what the SPL metre reads.

 

[markw]

you're confusing "perceived loudness"with "volume", or "SPL".

Many people confuse these two terms, but they are not one in the same.

So lets take perceived out of it.

Is it a measurable fact that a speaker with a 3db higher sensitivity rating would be twice as loud(with the same input power), and will require half the power to produce the same loudness?

You can't remove the "perceived loudness" from this argument no matter how much you want to. It defines what you hear.

Your ear does not hear in a linear fashion, which is what you seem to be describing. It hears in a logarithmic manner, which, in simple terms, means that as the sound gets louder, you hear less.

So, a three decibel increase in volume (SPL) amounts to a barely audible difference in "perceived loudness". Technically, it may be "twice the volume" as far as numbers go, but you don't hear it as such. You hear a barely audible difference in "perceived loudness", nowhere what you seem to be describing.

To double the "perceived loudness", a ten decibel increase, you need approximately ten times the power, or a ten decibel increase in volume, or SPL.

Of course, this assumes all things being equal as far as the speakers under discussion go.

Here's a link that may help clarify this.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/relationship-between-watts-and-dbs

PS - I wouldn't put too much stock in the db readings on a receiver. You need a calibrated SPL meter to accurately determine this.

 

[zumbo]

I think I have explained enough about this not being about perception at all.

This all started with me trying to help a member understand why I thought the Onix x-series bookshelf speaker was a better choice than the SVS bookshelf. I was trying to explain that the specs were better, and the drivers were larger. The new member asked me to explain the specs. I offered my knowledge, which I never claimed to be the best at, and that was it. Then, mister OttoMatic decided to pop in and start slamming. He tried to turn it into a technical argument over the definition of a 3db increase, as he has done here. Who really gives a $hit what a SPL meter does when you turn up the volume on your system. Has nothing to do with comparing one speakers spec to another. But, if one was to buy the speaker with the higher sensitivity, that meter would be higher sooner. If anyone wants to read for their self, then have at it.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34246

Long story short, I was just trying to help using my knowledge from reading. The member seemed to be about to pull the plug on the speakers, just by the pictures. Heck, I am sure they didn't even know the size of the speaker cabinet.

It's not just me. Look around at what Otto is up to. You don't have to look far before you find him pissing on someone else's party.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=293851#post293851

And, he seems to be pushing the SVS bookshelf speakers in other places. And, states to have never heard them. But he likes what he has read. $hit man, if I liked what I had read, I would believe a Bose Wave radio sounded like an entire Orchestra.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=297501#post297501

I recommend the brand I use. I also recommend brands I have auditioned, and liked. I will recommend the China made net speakers when someone is looking to spend 1k for a complete package. What else is there to recommend at such low costs? Athena. I do that too.

 

[OttoMatic]

Goodness.

He tried to turn it into a technical argument over the definition of a 3db increase.

I didn't slam you in the original thread. I just pointed out that a 2 dB (or 3dB for that matter) difference wasn't going to be generally considered "twice as loud". Sorry it upset you so.

Please note that in this thread, it's you that's now claiming that the 3 dB increase in SP energy L is what you meant by twice as loud. In my opinion, that's delving to a more technical level. At this point, it doesn't really matter what you said, or what you meant; all angles of this "twice as loud" business have been covered in this thread by various contributors, and they are in line with what I have been trying to tell you for a week in the original thread, in PM and now in this thread.

Who really gives a $hit what a SPL meter does when you turn up the volume on your system. Has nothing to do with comparing one speakers spec to another.

They are conceptually the same. But you won't listen to that. Have you tried the experiment yourself yet? Give it a try; it'll only take a minute.

As to the second thread you linked, is there a problem with me voicing my opinion on a linked-to article with a slanted headline as created by a forum member? It's in the Steam Vent, after all. Furthermore, there were those saying that "someone" was offended, and I clarified my position. Take it or leave it.

Yeah, I recommended the SVS bookshelf, based solely on their reputation. I almost, almost, almost recommended the used Dunlavy SC-1, of which the SVS product reminds me, but I know that it would be too obscure to be found. Keep in mind that in the original thread that you're having a fit about, I recommended the Infinity Primus series, which I have heard first hand. Or did you conveniently forget that?

If I only recommend the brand I use, what good is that? Lots of people recommend the ID brands without having heard them. Recommendations are based on reputation, price, money back guarantee, free shipipng, and so on. Furthermore, and for the record, I don't think I've ever knocked another brand that someone was recommending.

Good luck!

 

[MDS]

I think I have explained enough about this not being about perception at all.

Actually it is about perception. You keep defending yourself and saying a 3 dB more sensitive speaker doubles the SPL. It does not - it requires half the *power* to reach the same SPL or conversely feeding a speaker double the power increases the SPL by 3 dB.

What our ears perceive as being twice as loud requires anywhere from 6 dB to 10 dB increase in SPL as has been said many times already. In terms of power that means 4x - 10x as much power.

You were 100% correct in your explanation of speaker sensitivity and the resultant power requirements but 'loudness' is a function of our perception.

 

[OttoMatic]

You were 100% correct in your explanation of speaker sensitivity and the resultant power requirements but 'loudness' is a function of our perception.

Agreed. All please note that I never had a problem with zumbo's explanation of speaker sensitivity. I went into a little more detail, but I didn't criticize it at all. My issue was with the "twice as loud" comment, as stated 100x.

 

[zumbo]

Actually it is about perception. You keep defending yourself and saying a 3 dB more sensitive speaker doubles the SPL. It does not - it requires half the *power* to reach the same SPL or conversely feeding a speaker double the power increases the SPL by 3 dB.

What our ears perceive as being twice as loud requires anywhere from 6 dB to 10 dB increase in SPL as has been said many times already. In terms of power that means 4x - 10x as much power.

You were 100% correct in your explanation of speaker sensitivity and the resultant power requirements but 'loudness' is a function of our perception.

Thank you for your time looking into this.
I do think you missed one thing.
I was recommending the higher sensitivity rated speaker highly, due to this being a budget system. I have mentioned, in this thread, and the other, that the low-fi receiver would be working almost half as hard. This was the main reason for my recommendation of the x-seris bookshelf over the SVS bookshelf in the first place. That, and the better FR. Oh, and the larger drivers.