In search of an avr.

[herbu]

Might as well be comparing a SNR of 110db vs 115dB, crosstalk of -80dB vs -90dB, THD 0.1% vs 0.01%.

Agree. In the practical world, these are purely academic discussions, (despite the logarithmic slip). In a discussion or forum between experts, one would expect such a discussion... and relish in it.

It is also useful to tailor the discussion to the audience. I used to tell my engineers to construct their presentation to execs so a 10 year old could understand. Major takeaway... yes/no... this or that. Period. If the audience wants more detail, they will ask. Then you start into the detail and the "why" as deeply as they want to go.

That is one of the reasons I like this forum. It has a place for both.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Please show me where I claimed that in MOST cases??? I said imagine the flexibility...I can't take responsibility for your inferences

Here was my quote:

But in most cases even if one amp is 100WPC and one is 1,000WPC, you won't even NOTICE any difference at all because the REQUIRED output is usually less than 100WPC.

Here was your response TO MY quote:

Not true.

So which part of my quote was NOT TRUE?

Damn, it's a lot more fun shopping for a Lexus LX 570 than arguing about 20W vs 30W difference in AVR (Yamaha vs Denon vs Pioneer, etc.).

I guess this is one reason why people make fun of audiophiles - they argue over nothing at all.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agree. In the practical world, these are purely academic discussions, (despite the logarithmic slip). In a discussion or forum between experts, one would expect such a discussion... and relish in it.

It is also useful to tailor the discussion to the audience. I used to tell my engineers to construct their presentation to execs so a 10 year old could understand. Major takeaway... yes/no... this or that. Period. If the audience wants more detail, they will ask. Then you start into the detail and the "why" as deeply as they want to go.

That is one of the reasons I like this forum. It has a place for both.

It's a lot more fun watching movies, TV series, and listening to music than arguing over a few frivolous watts. That is for sure.

I was installing Wi-Fi controlled/remote controlled light switches in my house when I was off work yesterday. That was more fun as well.

 

[3db]

Here was my quote:


Here was your response TO MY quote:


So which part of my quote was NOT TRUE?

Damn, it's a lot more fun shopping for a Lexus LX 570 than arguing about 20W vs 30W difference in AVR.

I guess this is one reason why people make fun of audiophiles - they argue over nothing at all.

Lmao sorry but ihave to add more than 10 characters to this post.

 

[RichB]

Here was my quote:


Here was your response TO MY quote:


So which part of my quote was NOT TRUE?

Damn, it's a lot more fun shopping for a Lexus LX 570 than arguing about 20W vs 30W difference in AVR.

I guess this is one reason why people make fun of audiophiles - they argue over nothing at all.

I absolute agree. No, I can't do that, so ....

It would be nice if reviews of these products would subject AVR amps to similar tests to those used for separates. ACD. 1K tones and sweeps tests to infer robustness.

Not all amps have the same vanishing low distortion and flat frequency response when driving reactive speaker loads. Even, Multi-tone tests sometimes show significant increases in THD and other harmonics (event those not included in that statistic). The same level of testing is not applied to AVR amps.

Still, most people do not drive their systems to their limits so an AVR with preamp outs is a great option.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I absolute agree. No, I can't do that, so ....

It would be nice if reviews of these products would subject AVR amps to similar tests to those used for separates. ACD. 1K tones and sweeps tests to infer robustness.

Not all amps have the same vanishing low distortion and flat frequency response when driving reactive speaker loads. Even, Multi-tone tests sometimes show significant increases in THD and other harmonics (event those not included in that statistic). The same level of testing is not applied to AVR amps.

Still, most people do not drive their systems to their limits so an AVR with preamp outs is a great option.

- Rich

I do agree that high power external amps are better and more stable than practically any AVR. So if people are powering "difficult" speakers, it makes more sense to use robust external amps than AVR.

But arguing over a few watts on one AVR vs. another AVR is pointless, don't you think?

$1200 Denon AVR-3312CI: 143W x 2Ch 8 ohms/226W x 2Ch 4 ohms/103W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1200 Yamaha RX-A1020: 129W x 2Ch 8 ohms/173W x 2Ch 4 ohms/73W x 5Ch 8 ohms

The Denon has 14W more in 2Ch 8 ohms, 53W more in 2Ch 4 ohms, 30W more in 5Ch 8 ohms. The Denon has a 4 ohm/8 ohm power ratio of 1.58. The Yamaha has power ratio of 1.34.

I could argue the Denon mops the floor with the same price Yamaha because the Denon comes closer to doubling it's power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. I won't even mention Audyssey + sub EQ + DEQ.

But I will refrain.

When it comes to AVR in the same class, get the one with the features you want. Reliability history, customer support, price are all factors. If you need more power, get a power amp. Really simple.

 

[RichB]

I do agree that high power external amps are better and more stable than practically any AVR. So if people are powering "difficult" speakers, it makes more sense to use robust external amps than AVR.

But arguing over a few watts on one AVR vs. another AVR is pointless, don't you think?

Utterly

$1200 Denon AVR-3312CI: 143W x 2Ch 8 ohms/226W x 2Ch 4 ohms/103W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1200 Yamaha RX-A1020: 129W x 2Ch 8 ohms/173W x 2Ch 4 ohms/73W x 5Ch 8 ohms

The Denon has 14W more in 2Ch 8 ohms, 53W more in 2Ch 4 ohms, 30W more in 5Ch 8 ohms. The Denon has a 4 ohm/8 ohm power ratio of 1.58. The Yamaha has power ratio of 1.34.

I could argue the Denon mops the floor with the same price Yamaha because it comes closer to doubling it's power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. I won't even mention Audyssey + sub EQ + DEQ.

But I will refrain.

almost refrain

When it comes to AVR, get the one with the features you want. If you need more power, get a power amp.

I have owned Denon (years ago), Onkyo AVR/Preamps. Currently, the Marantz AV8801, Yamaha Aventage A820. The AV8810 had to be repaired for a bad trigger. And, I am not alone.

I notice a change is sound-stage when changing the AV8801 form Pure to Stereo Mode with all processing flat. Perhaps, measurements should include phase between channels with processing engaged. I cannot hear these differences from the back of the room, but sitting 6 feet equidistant between the Salons, the sound field changes are apparent.

It is not that sound quality differences are not measurable, it may be that they have not yet been measured. That is also good science.

For two channel, I am moving in the other direction. A high-quality DAC/Preamp directly connected to an amp. Configured to deliver the bit-stream with minimal processing, the detail and dynamics are incredible. Often the sound is less bright but more realistic and detailed.

IMO, signal handling is not just a concern in the analog domain, but seems to be an issue in the digital domain as well. Altering the streaming method alters the sound. Strangely enough, I find it harder to detect with headphones than with speakers.

BTW, all DACs do sound the same, they make the same sound as a memory stick sitting on the table.

- Rich

 

[3db]

I do agree that high power external amps are better and more stable than practically any AVR. So if people are powering "difficult" speakers, it makes more sense to use robust external amps than AVR.

But arguing over a few watts on one AVR vs. another AVR is pointless, don't you think?

$1200 Denon AVR-3312CI: 143W x 2Ch 8 ohms/226W x 2Ch 4 ohms/103W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1200 Yamaha RX-A1020: 129W x 2Ch 8 ohms/173W x 2Ch 4 ohms/73W x 5Ch 8 ohms

The Denon has 14W more in 2Ch 8 ohms, 53W more in 2Ch 4 ohms, 30W more in 5Ch 8 ohms. The Denon has a 4 ohm/8 ohm power ratio of 1.58. The Yamaha has power ratio of 1.34.

I could argue the Denon mops the floor with the same price Yamaha because the Denon comes closer to doubling it's power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. I won't even mention Audyssey + sub EQ + DEQ.

But I will refrain.

When it comes to AVR in the same class, get the one with the features you want. Reliability history, customer support, price are all factors. If you need more power, get a power amp. Really simple.

As pointless as using the ACD test in justifying that receiver A is more powerful than receiver B. What's even more lame is using Home Theater magazine ASAP reliable source for proper amplifier testing. The RX-A3000 tested by Audiobolics used strnous test methods also used on poweramps.

 

[RichB]

As pointless as using the ACD test in justifying that receiver A is more powerful than receiver B. What's even more lame is using Home Theater magazine ASAP reliable source for proper amplifier testing. The RX-A3000 tested by Audiobolics used strnous test methods also used on poweramps.

Thanks, this is an excellent review:

https://www.google.com/search?q=RX-A3000+review&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=&oe=


- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As pointless as using the ACD test in justifying that receiver A is more powerful than receiver B. What's even more lame is using Home Theater magazine ASAP reliable source for proper amplifier testing. The RX-A3000 tested by Audiobolics used strnous test methods also used on poweramps.

The reason we use HTM is because they measure more AVRs using the same parameters (2Ch 8 ohms, 2Ch 4 ohms, 5Ch 8 ohms, etc.).

With AH, not all the parameters are even the same and there are not that many AVRs measured for comparison.

For example, look at the Denon 4310 vs Yamaha A3000.

Denon AVR-4310CI Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

Yamaha RX-A3000 Aventage Measurement and Analysis (Power Tests) | Audioholics

How do you compare when the Denon's CFP-BW is for ONE channel, while the Yamaha is for TWO channels?

The Dynamic Power test for the Yamaha is for 2Ch, while the Denon is for 7Ch. How do you compare that?

There is too many variations for comparison.

Denon 1Ch

CFP-BW

163 watts

8 ohms

< 0.1%

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Denon 1Ch

CFP-BW

267 watts

4 ohms

< 0.1%

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Yamaha 2Ch

CFP-BW

155 watts

8 ohms

0.1%

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Yamaha 2Ch

CFP-BW

236 watts

4 ohms

0.1%

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

And after all that, it's still splitting hairs comparing power output of 2 AVRs in the same class. Might as well compare all the crosstalk, SNR, THD, and FR that are also as inaudible as the power output difference.

 

[PENG]

Thanks, this is an excellent review:

https://www.google.com/search?q=RX-A3000+review&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=&oe=


- Rich

So if we are to compare Denon and Yamaha (their near top of line models) base on AH's measurements then let's see the following, taken from two reviews, both by Gene.

Denon AVR-4310 (Jan 3 2010)

Preamp

Denon AVR-4310CI was able to output 4Vrms at < 0.1%THD + N for full bandwidth (20Hz to 20kHz) which is more than double the voltage needed for most external amplifiers to reach maximum gain."

Power amp

"It was able to exceed its continuous fullbandwidth per channel power rating of 130 wpc by delivering a whopping 163wpc into 8 ohms and 267 watts into 4 ohms. With the standard 1kHz ACD test, the AVR-4310CI delivered 95 wpc which again is excellent."

Yamaha RX-A3000 (Dec 23 2010)

Preamp

"The RX-A3000 was able to deliver 3.3Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs."

Power amp

"The Yamaha RX-A3000 handedly exceeded its 140wpc power rating continuously with two channels driven and stomped out an impressive 236wpc both channels driven into 4 ohms; and that’s a full power bandwidth measurement (20Hz to 20kHz at 0.1% THD + N). It proved to be every bit as powerful as their more expensive RX-Z7 mode. You can see the protection circuit kick on during our ACD tests, purposely limiting power to 65wpc. "

According to Gene:

"Unless otherwise noted, our power measurements are conducted at 0.1% THD + N as opposed to a 1% or higher distortion typically seen which is audible and represents hard amplifier clipping."

It does seem to me that you can look at HCC (British), AVTech (British), HTM or AH reviews/measurements, Yamaha and Denon mid to top line AVR models are more similar than different in terms of measurable performance. So purchase decision can be boiled down to perceived reliability, features, aesthetics, and price. I guess there isn't much need to debate further.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if we are to compare Denon and Yamaha (their near top of line models) base on AH's measurements then let's see the following, taken from two reviews, both by Gene.

Denon AVR-4310 (Jan 3 2010)

Preamp

Denon AVR-4310CI was able to output 4Vrms at < 0.1%THD + N for full bandwidth (20Hz to 20kHz) which is more than double the voltage needed for most external amplifiers to reach maximum gain."

Power amp

"It was able to exceed its continuous fullbandwidth per channel power rating of 130 wpc by delivering a whopping 163wpc into 8 ohms and 267 watts into 4 ohms. With the standard 1kHz ACD test, the AVR-4310CI delivered 95 wpc which again is excellent."

Yamaha RX-A3000 (Dec 23 2010)

Preamp

"The RX-A3000 was able to deliver 3.3Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs."

Power amp

"The Yamaha RX-A3000 handedly exceeded its 140wpc power rating continuously with two channels driven and stomped out an impressive 236wpc both channels driven into 4 ohms; and that’s a full power bandwidth measurement (20Hz to 20kHz at 0.1% THD + N). It proved to be every bit as powerful as their more expensive RX-Z7 mode. You can see the protection circuit kick on during our ACD tests, purposely limiting power to 65wpc. "

According to Gene:

"Unless otherwise noted, our power measurements are conducted at 0.1% THD + N as opposed to a 1% or higher distortion typically seen which is audible and represents hard amplifier clipping."

It does seem to me that you can look at HCC (British), AVTech (British), HTM or AH reviews/measurements, Yamaha and Denon mid to top line AVR models are more similar than different in terms of measurable performance. So purchase decision can be boiled down to perceived reliability, features, aesthetics, and price. I guess there isn't much need to debate further.

Oh, gods, you'll still be arguing over a few watts with those Yamaha fanboys. They still won't accept the fact that it's pointless to compare the vapid difference in power output between 2 AVR in the same class regardless of who is doing the measurements.

 

[PENG]

Oh, gods, you'll still be arguing over a few watts with those Yamaha fanboys. They still won't accept the fact that it's pointless to compare the vapid difference in power output between 2 AVR in the same class regardless of who is doing the measurements.

I don't believe anyone is still arguing, but just jerking each other's chain, and I know you know that already.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't believe anyone is still arguing, but just jerking each other's chain, and I know you know that already.

Are we just bored or what?

 

[PENG]

I am starting a pool:

Who thinks ADTG will upgrade the AVP dual sub equalization?

- Rich

I think he will upgrade one of the two eventually. What is $1K to him, now that the big SUV is out of the way?

 

[3db]

And after all that, it's still splitting hairs comparing power output of 2 AVRs in the same class. Might as well compare all the crosstalk, SNR, THD, and FR that are also as inaudible as the power output difference.

Dude, you started all theis BS with your ACD mantra.