In search of an avr.

[RichB]

I would say one of those RX-A3XXX is as powerful as the XPA-5 for two channel stereo listening, and I don't think I am exaggerating.

In the XPA line, the 3 channel or better yet the 2 channel amps are more robust.

The need for power depends on your speakers, room, and listening habits.
Most AVRs have 4 ohm settings, that limit the power. Gene does not recommend using 4 ohms settings and you can find measurements on AH.

Try temporarily engaging 4ohm mode, and listen to the sound when you turn it up.
Does it sound flat or distorted or both? This may give you a feeling for what happens when the amp is limiting factor.

- Rich

 

[3db]

In the XPA line, the 3 channel or better yet the 2 channel amps are more robust.

The need for power depends on your speakers, room, and listening habits.
Most AVRs have 4 ohm settings, that limit the power. Gene does not recommend using 4 ohms settings and you can find measurements on AH.

Try temporarily engaging 4ohm mode, and listen to the sound when you turn it up.
Does it sound flat or distorted or both? This may give you a feeling for what happens when the amp is limiting factor.

- Rich

Have you read the review on the Rx-A3000? You could throw any speakers on this AVR and it has the power to drive them cleanly. Like I said, its amplifier capabilities have yet to be surpassed by another AVR manufacturer.

I don't know why AVRs have a 4 ohm setting. Is to protect it from complete dufuses incapable of thinking?

 

[RichB]

I don't know why AVRs have a 4 ohm setting. Is to protect it from complete dufuses incapable of thinking?

A rational manufacturer must consider the less techno savvy customer.
A rational manufacturer will make their amp sound as good as it can when clipping.
I mention the 4 ohm setting to illustrate the effects of power limiting.
It is an interesting experiment.

There are those do not think it is loud until it is clipping. There are those that think power is produced by an amplifier until gross clipping occurs and that is true of some designs.

However, there are designs that limit current and effectively fail to produce the required power that results in limited dynamics. Many class-d amps soft-clip which, in my view, is a form of compression.

That is not to say that an RX-A3000 is not fully capable.
Just that sometimes you need more power to drive speakers with a low impedance and high phase angles.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Have you read the review on the Rx-A3000? You could throw any speakers on this AVR and it has the power to drive them cleanly. Like I said, its amplifier capabilities have yet to be surpassed by another AVR manufacturer.

$2200 Yamaha RX-A3020: 162W x 2Ch 8 ohms/258W x 2Ch 4 ohms/69W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$2000 Denon AVR4310CI: 179W x 2Ch 8 ohms/259W x 2Ch 4 ohms/131W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1200 Denon AVR3312CI: 143W x 2Ch 8 ohms/225W x 2Ch 4 ohms/103W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$2200 Pioneer AVR SC07: 182W x 2Ch 8 ohms/302W x 2Ch 4 ohms/151W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1400 Integra AVR 50.2: 172W x 2Ch 8 ohms/260W x 2Ch 4 ohms/134W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1000 HK AVR 3700: 170W x 2Ch 8 ohms/280W x 2Ch 4 ohms/41W x 5Ch 8 ohms

2Ch 8 ohms: $2K Yamaha has 19 insignificant watts more (13% more), not much to brag about for twice the price.
2Ch 4 ohms: $2K Yamaha has 33 insignificant watts more (15% more), not much to brag about for twice the price.
5Ch 8 ohms: $2K Yamaha has 34 watts LESS (50% LESS), not much to brag about for twice the price.

The $2200 Pioneer has more power output than the $2200 Yamaha:
2Ch 8 ohms: 20W (12%) more
2Ch 4 ohms: 44W ((17%) more
5Ch 8 ohms: 82W (120%) more

The $2K Denon also has more power output than the $2200 Yamaha. Although the 2Ch is insignificant, the 5Ch is 62W more (90% more).

The $1400 Integra AVR also has more power output than the $2200 Yamaha in every configuration.

Yamaha has more protection circuit in 5Ch, but the Yamaha will nevertheless go into protection mode in 5Ch stereo mode if the power requirement is > 70W. And yes, people actually use 5Ch stereo mode.

The $1K Harman Kardon AVR has more 2Ch output than the $2200 Yamaha. Apparently the HK also has even more protection circuit than the Yamaha in 5Ch, if more protection circuit in 5Ch is what you like.

So I don't understand why the Yamaha's "amplifier capabilities have yet to be surpassed by another AVR manufacturer"???

 

[3db]

$2200 Yamaha RX-A3020: 162W x 2Ch 8 ohms/258W x 2Ch 4 ohms/69W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$2000 Denon AVR4310CI: 179W x 2Ch 8 ohms/259W x 2Ch 4 ohms/131W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1200 Denon AVR3312CI: 143W x 2Ch 8 ohms/225W x 2Ch 4 ohms/103W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$2200 Pioneer AVR SC07: 182W x 2Ch 8 ohms/302W x 2Ch 4 ohms/151W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1400 Integra AVR 50.2: 172W x 2Ch 8 ohms/260W x 2Ch 4 ohms/134W x 5Ch 8 ohms
$1000 HK AVR 3700: 170W x 2Ch 8 ohms/280W x 2Ch 4 ohms/41W x 5Ch 8 ohms

2Ch 8 ohms: $2K Yamaha has 19 insignificant watts more (13% more), not much to brag about for twice the price.
2Ch 4 ohms: $2K Yamaha has 33 insignificant watts more (15% more), not much to brag about for twice the price.
5Ch 8 ohms: $2K Yamaha has 34 watts LESS (50% LESS), not much to brag about for twice the price.

The $2200 Pioneer has more power output than the $2200 Yamaha:
2Ch 8 ohms: 20W (12%) more
2Ch 4 ohms: 44W ((17%) more
5Ch 8 ohms: 82W (120%) more

The $2K Denon also has more power output than the $2200 Yamaha. Although the 2Ch is insignificant, the 5Ch is 62W more (90% more).

The $1400 Integra AVR also has more power output than the $2200 Yamaha in every configuration.

Yamaha has more protection circuit in 5Ch, but the Yamaha will nevertheless go into protection mode in 5Ch stereo mode if the power requirement is > 70W. And yes, people actually use 5Ch stereo mode.

The $1K Harman Kardon AVR has more 2Ch output than the $2200 Yamaha. Apparently the HK also has even more protection circuit than the Yamaha in 5Ch, if more protection circuit in 5Ch is what you like.

So I don't understand why the Yamaha's "amplifier capabilities have yet to be surpassed by another AVR manufacturer"???

Where did you get your specs? If its Home Theater Magazine, I find their amplifier test methods lacking and sketchy at best.

If you look into the two channel mode which is the REAL test and not the pretend test of ACD with the execption of the Pioneer ( and I'm wondering if that is a publishing error or a Class D anomally), Yamaha comes the closest to actually doubling its power output. That's where it counts and not teh ACD test where a manufacture intentionally cuts back its power delivery..not because it can't.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you look into the two channel mode...Yamaha comes the closest to actually doubling its power output.

2CH 4ohm/8ohm ratio:
$500 Harman: 1.80
$2.2K Pioneer: 1.66
$1.0K Harman: 1.65
$1.1K Pioneer: 1.65
$2.2K Yamaha: 1.59
$1.2K Denon:1.57

Wow, yeah the Yamaha is 4.4 times the price of the HK, yet the HK is A LOT closer to doubling it's power output.

$500 HK 1700: 109W 8 ohms/196W 4 ohms, power ratio: 1.80
$1000 HK 3700: 170W 8 ohms/280W 4 ohms, power ratio: 1.65
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150W 8 ohms/248W 4 ohms, power ratio: 1.65

And the $2.2K Yamaha basically has the same ratio as the $1.2K Denon.

 

[3db]

2CH 4ohm/8ohm ratio:
$500 Harman: 1.80
$2.2K Pioneer: 1.66
$1.0K Harman: 1.65
$1.1K Pioneer: 1.65
$2.2K Yamaha: 1.59
$1.2K Denon:1.57

Wow, yeah the Yamaha is 4.4 times the price of the HK, yet the HK is A LOT closer to doubling it's power output.

$500 HK 1700: 109W 8 ohms/196W 4 ohms, power ratio: 1.80
$1000 HK 3700: 170W 8 ohms/280W 4 ohms, power ratio: 1.65
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150W 8 ohms/248W 4 ohms, power ratio: 1.65

And the $2.2K Yamaha basically has the same ratio as the $1.2K Denon.

Home Theater Magazine numbers? If so.. merely fluff .

 

[PENG]

In the XPA line, the 3 channel or better yet the 2 channel amps are more robust.


- Rich

That's why I referred only to the XPA-5.

 

[PENG]

I have seen the older Yamaha models beating equivalent Denon's in two channel outputs and those were measurements taken by HCC, HTM and AVtech. For the new models I do think Yamaha's RX-V1500 and up, and RX-V10XX and up are basically in line with Denon's 33XX and 43XX in terms of 2 channel outputs into 8 or 4 ohms. Any differences either way are totally insignificant.

Now if we are talking reliability, then I do believe Yamaha's are "unsurpassed" and that's only base on what I read on forums so it may not be 100% factual.

 

[herbu]

Please forget the validity of measurement method for now.

I see:
162 vs 179 vs 143 vs 182 vs 172 vs 170 watts...
or
258 vs 259 vs 225 vs 301 vs 260 vs 280 watts.

Are there really any speakers where the difference between these would be noticeable?
I would think the answer is "no" for 169 vs 170 vs 172 vs 179w. Maybe between 143 & 182.
And I would think the answer is "no" for 258 vs 259 vs 260. Maybe between 225 & 280.

So here are the real questions:
1) When you're comparing the output of 2 systems, both above 150wpc, how many watts would you consider minimally noticeable?
2) How many watts would you consider significant?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Please forget the validity of measurement method for now.

I see:
162 vs 179 vs 143 vs 182 vs 172 vs 170 watts...
or
258 vs 259 vs 225 vs 301 vs 260 vs 280 watts.

Are there really any speakers where the difference between these would be noticeable?
I would think the answer is "no" for 169 vs 170 vs 172 vs 179w. Maybe between 143 & 182.
And I would think the answer is "no" for 258 vs 259 vs 260. Maybe between 225 & 280.

So here are the real questions:
1) When you're comparing the output of 2 systems, both above 150wpc, how many watts would you consider minimally noticeable?
2) How many watts would you consider significant?

1) < twice the power output
2) > or = twice the power output

But in most cases even if one amp is 100WPC and one is 1,000WPC, you won't even NOTICE any difference at all because the REQUIRED output is usually less than 100WPC.

That is why comparing power output among AVR in the same class is equivocal at best. A moot point. A waste of time. Especially when most audiophiles end up adding an external power amp.

Most audiophiles don't even use the AVR's internal amp. An utter waste of breath arguing over a few meaningless watts on the AVR.

The only things worth considering are the reliability and features.

Not whether one AVR has a 4/8 ohm power output ratio of 1.6 vs 1.5 vs 1.4.

Reliability. Probably a bigger factor when comparing lower end models.

Features. Like (Audyssey XT32 + a Dual Sub EQ + DEQ) vs (YAPO + single Sub EQ + Dynamic Compression) vs MCACC vs ARC, etc.

 

[3db]

But in most cases even if one amp is 100WPC and one is 1,000WPC, you won't even NOTICE any difference at all because the REQUIRED output is usually less than 100WPC.

Not true. Imagine the flexability of the speakers you could buy if your amp was a 1000 watts and could arc weld sheet metal together. There are many low impedance highly reactive load speakers out there.

That is why comparing power output among AVR in the same class is equivocal at best. A moot point. A waste of time. Especially when most audiophiles end up adding an external power amp.

Most audiophiles don't even use the AVR's internal amp. An utter waste of breath arguing over a few meaningless watts on the AVR.

The only things worth considering are the reliability and features.

Not whether one AVR has a 4/8 ohm power output ratio of 1.6 vs 1.5 vs 1.4.

Or the ACD test

 

[3db]

Please forget the validity of measurement method for now.

I see:
162 vs 179 vs 143 vs 182 vs 172 vs 170 watts...
or
258 vs 259 vs 225 vs 301 vs 260 vs 280 watts.

Are there really any speakers where the difference between these would be noticeable?
I would think the answer is "no" for 169 vs 170 vs 172 vs 179w. Maybe between 143 & 182.
And I would think the answer is "no" for 258 vs 259 vs 260. Maybe between 225 & 280.

So here are the real questions:
1) When you're comparing the output of 2 systems, both above 150wpc, how many watts would you consider minimally noticeable?
2) How many watts would you consider significant?

Actually, one won't notice if the speakers are of lower sensitivity (efficiency). However, the differences will show up slightly on high sensitivity speakers.

 

[herbu]

The only things worth considering are the reliability and features.

That's kinda what I was thinking if all your AVR candidates are above ~120WPC, and within ~20-30WPC of each other. In the high end, 50WPC could make a slight difference. In the low end, below 100WPC, 20-30WPC could make a noticeable difference.

It seems that once you hit the $1k range for an AVR, (maybe even less), the real life advantages of any unit come down to features and reliability. Power discussions, though valid, are largely academic.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But in most cases even if one amp is 100WPC and one is 1,000WPC, you won't even NOTICE any difference at all because the REQUIRED output is usually less than 100WPC.

Not true. Imagine the flexability of the speakers you could buy if your amp was a 1000 watts and could arc weld sheet metal together. There are many low impedance highly reactive load speakers out there.

So are you claiming that in MOST cases millions of people will need more than 100WPC when casually listening to music at moderate volume?

I know at least one expert speaker designer who disagrees with you; Dennis Murphy says that his 85dB/2.83v/m 4 ohms Phil3 speaker just needs 100WPC amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's kinda what I was thinking if all your AVR candidates are above ~120WPC, and within ~20-30WPC of each other. In the high end, 50WPC could make a slight difference. In the low end, below 100WPC, 20-30WPC could make a noticeable difference.

It seems that once you hit the $1k range for an AVR, (maybe even less), the real life advantages of any unit come down to features and reliability. Power discussions, though valid, are largely academic.

That's right.

You need to double the power to get 3dB increase in volume. So if one AVR is 120W, the other AVR needs to have 120W more, not 20W or 30W more.

The other needs to at least have 60W more to get 1.5dB more volume.

It is a moot point. Might as well be comparing a SNR of 110db vs 115dB, crosstalk of -80dB vs -90dB, THD 0.1% vs 0.01%.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

You need to double the power to get 3dB increase in volume. So if one AVR is 120W, the other AVR needs to have 120W more, not 20W or 30W more.

The other needs to at least have 60W more to get 1.5dB more volume.
...

No. Decibels are logarithmic. 60W more than 120W is 180W, and the difference between 120W and 180W is 1.8dB, not the 1.5dB that you claim.

 

[3db]

So are you claiming that in MOST cases millions of people will need more than 100WPC when casually listening to music at moderate volume?

I know at least one expert speaker designer who disagrees with you; Dennis Murphy says that his 85dB/2.83v/m 4 ohms Phil3 speaker just needs 100WPC amp.

Please show me where I claimed that in MOST cases??? I said imagine the flexibility...I can't take responsibility for your inferences

 

[JBL1964]

I have a Onkyo TX-8050 net receiver that is 80WPS @8ohms. It is loud enough for me anything more louder i question some serious "hearing" loss. Behind the smart aluminum façade lies a massive transformer and large capacitors that provide clean amplification power and help push performance well beyond the norm.

 

[JohnnieB]

Warlord vs. Ninja. Own it on Blu-ray.