In need of help choosing the best option for a new receiver and pre amp

killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
@Sachb most of what you write is plain and simple wrong. No reason to regard that as advice. It's just a brand-fanboy doing some brand-name dropping. No real info.
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
@Sachb most of what you write is plain and simple wrong. No reason to regard that as advice. It's just a brand-fanboy doing some brand-name dropping. No real info.
You should say this to lovinthhd who has no clue about both the brands.

Something tells me this forum is biased towards D/M.

I have been Denon fan for years untill I switched to Yamaha, now I'm completely a yamaha guy. What on earth does any Denon do better than the Yamaha besides sales?

Literally, nothing. They are entry level brand for the hifi world. I wouldn't even call Denon hifi anymore. The yamaha is definately mid-tier brand.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
@Desiloth in order to make a decision you're trying to make, you need a huge amount of info you're obviously lacking. This is why it's hard if not impossible to help you. Usually when someone combines lack of info with a rigid attitude he inspires bad reactions.

Even if you prefer answers like the ones @Sachb gave you, those are the ones to avoid, he seems to know as much (as little) as you.

Receiver implies a pre amp.

You might get some gain from adding another to the exisiting one in the receiver, but it's hardly the way to go.

I'd risk it and say there's no such home audio speaker that needs 400 watts.

You can connect your PC into the AVR, that shouldn't be a problem.

A better way to go, if you lack power, would be to add a power amp to the chain.

Very reliable brands are Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, NAD, some Onkyos etc.

Emotiva had some issues lately to say the least.

Sachb imagining some processing he hears in Denon, or Denon being underpowered with 95 watts compared to an avr with 100 watts is just nonsense.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
You should say this to lovinthhd who has no clue about both the brands.

Something tells me this forum is biased towards D/M.

I have been Denon fan for years untill I switched to Yamaha, now I'm completely a yamaha guy. What on earth does any Denon do better than the Yamaha besides sales?

Literally, nothing. They are entry level brand for the hifi world. I wouldn't even call Denon hifi anymore. The yamaha is definately mid-tier brand.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
Ooooou, judging by this, I think I directed my comment to the right address.

One thing you got right, though. Denon does little better than Yamaha or Marantz (well, it does have an absolute champion when it comes to how distortion free it is, as clean as the famed Benchmark), but they all do almost equally successful.

This forum you might call biased to facts and measured, established truths. It is what we like here.

Feel free to continue calling Denon HIFI and don’t waste time on mid-fi, low-fi nonsense.

Denon made such great gear throughout its history and still makes it today, no reason to think low of them.

But so has Yamaha, don’t get me wrong.
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
Ooooou, judging by this, I think I directed my comment to the right address.

One thing you got right, though. Denon does little better than Yamaha or Marantz (well, it does have an absolute champion when it comes to how distortion free it is, as clean as the famed Benchmark), but they all do almost equally successful.

This forum you might call biased to facts and measured, established truths. It is what we like here.

Feel free to continue calling Denon HIFI and don’t waste time on mid-fi, low-fi nonsense.

Denon made such great gear throughout its history and still makes it today, no reason to think low of them.

But so has Yamaha, don’t get me wrong.
I will ask you a simple question. Can you measure a sound, does it give you a hint of how it sounds? Whether it's warm, laidback, harsh, punchy, tight, thin.

Does your so called "mesurement" show that??

You don't judge anything by the measurements on paper alone. Those measurements are just a small part of a sound, those thd ratings have minimal difference at best. It doesn't speak about the attributes of any recievers.

You judge the sound by actually hearing it, and not by some random scientifical measurements done by some researcher.

However, since you've brougth this topic into the discussion, I was really amazed by the end result of the audio research done by the group. This is where it gets interesting, according to the research the thd rating of Marantz which is a premium product of the sister company Denon, gets to the bottom of the chart and while the similar model X3600H & X3700H come out on the top of the chart.

How is this research any good, does it speak of any actual sound attributes of any of the recievers instead of just focusing on the thd rating?

So you will just make people believe that Denon is superior to all including anthem, marantz.

I would call this an utter nonsense.

I've had the Denon, and it had the worst distortion on the headphone output, the treble was harsh, the bass was just outright distorted.

With the yamaha the headphone output is much better. The bass is deeper with little to no distortion. The sound quality is better.

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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
@Sachb I'm not disputing what you like or prefer.

One thing you got right again; THD beyond a certain point will stop affecting sound and whether it's 0.008% or 0.009% is really irrelevant.

However, it can talk volumes about the competence of the designers. It can also say something nice about offering such a correctly sounding avr at an affordable price. That's nice.

according to the research thd rating of Marantz which is a premium product of the sister company Denon, gets to the bottom of the chart and while the similar model X3600H & X3700H come out on the top of the chart.
Shouting at numbers expecting them to change seems useless. If the measurement you're referring to was done by some of our trusted members, I'd be inclined to take them for their word.

However, I DON'T think that said Marantz will fall behind in performance. I clearly stated that there are very few things Denon might do better. I'd say they come very close and wouldn't expect difference in sound. (I own a Yamaha). People here hold Yamaha in very high regards, make no mistake about that.

When it comes to your question about sound, two things I feel I need to tell you;

You keep talking about amps or avrs (regardless) and attributes of sound. It's a wrong approach. When well done, the amp or avr shouldn't impart on the sound. It should give you back what you put in only amplified.

Most of the brands you talk about are quite capable of achieving this. Meaning, with enough knowledge (about level matching and tuning the sound in the pre/pro or DSP stage of the unit) you can make these brands sound exactly the same.

The other thing is; it is really not utter nonsense. The sound is successfully described and measured by the measuring equipment at our disposal. Sure, it is true that looking at a graph WILL NOT enable you to correctly imagine how it would sound.

Lastly, these: “Whether it's warm, laidback, harsh, punchy, tight, thin." - Are our emotional responses to sounds and are very inaccurate and susceptible to interpretation.” Having said that, you’d be amazed how much can a professional read out from graphs and predict how a speaker will sound (given that room doesn’t affect it).

I hope I helped:

Yamaha, Denon, Marantz can perform equally well.

None of them has sound signatures, so they don't sound like this or that.

Measurements do predict, for the most part, the performance of gear.

Distortion on your headphones out is a sign something's not right. It's not bc of Denon.

No one should judge equipment solely by measurements and no one here does.

Everything else being equal, it would be almost impossible noticing the difference between 95 and 100 watts.
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
@Sachb I'm not disputing what you like or prefer.

One thing you got right again; THD beyond a certain point will stop affecting sound and whether it's 0.008% or 0.009% is really irrelevant.

However, it can talk volumes about the competence of the designers. It can also say something nice about offering such a correctly sounding avr at an affordable price. That's nice.



Shouting at numbers expecting them to change seems useless. If the measurement you're referring to was done by some of our trusted members, I'd be inclined to take them for their word.

However, I DON'T think that said Marantz will fall behind in performance. I clearly stated that there are very few things Denon might do better. I'd say they come very close and wouldn't expect difference in sound. (I own a Yamaha). People here hold Yamaha in very high regards, make no mistake about that.

When it comes to your question about sound, two things I feel I need to tell you;

You keep talking about amps or avrs (regardless) and attributes of sound. It's a wrong approach. When well done, the amp or avr shouldn't impart on the sound. It should give you back what you put in only amplified.

Most of the brands you talk about are quite capable of achieving this. Meaning, with enough knowledge (about level matching and tuning the sound in the pre/pro or DSP stage of the unit) you can make these brands sound exactly the same.

The other thing is; it is really not utter nonsense. The sound is successfully described and measured by the measuring equipment at our disposal. Sure, it is true that looking at a graph WILL NOT enable you to correctly imagine how it would sound.

Lastly, these: “Whether it's warm, laidback, harsh, punchy, tight, thin." - Are our emotional responses to sounds and are very inaccurate and susceptible to interpretation.” Having said that, you’d be amazed how much can a professional read out from graphs and predict how a speaker will sound (given that room doesn’t affect it).

I hope I helped:

Yamaha, Denon, Marantz can perform equally well.

None of them has sound signatures, so they don't sound like this or that.

Measurements do predict, for the most part, the performance of gear.

Distortion on your headphones out is a sign something's not right. It's not bc of Denon.

No one should judge equipment solely by measurements and no one here does.

Everything else being equal, it would be almost impossible noticing the difference between 95 and 100 watts.
If you can't hear the difference then something must be certainly wrong with the way you hear things.

AVRs of each brand have there own sound signature, this is effected with diferent room correction, dsps, dacs etc.

Only when switching pure direct is when you will find it hard to notice a difference but then here again, a much more powerful amplifier with superior DAC will outperform the inferior one.

Those Yamahas are no jokes, well this is my first Yamaha, and its exceeded my expectations, never felt the sound so open airy with tons of mid punch. The denon which I own is X2300W clearly stands no chance against it.


Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
If you can't hear the difference then something must be certainly wrong with the way you hear things.

AVRs of each brand have there own sound signature, this is effected with diferent room correction, dsps, dacs etc.

Only when switching pure direct is when you will find it hard to notice a difference but then here again, a much more powerful amplifier with superior DAC will outperform the inferior one.

Those Yamahas are no jokes, well this is my first Yamaha, and its exceeded my expectations, never felt the sound so open airy with tons of mid punch. The Denon which I own is X2300W clearly stands no chance against it.


Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
You keep being so wrong all the time I'm beginning to think you like it. Nothing is wrong with the way I hear. You're bothered by some preconceptions and you have a hard time letting them go.

Also you contradict yourself - direct modes are exactly when you hear the amp section and if you can't tell the difference, that means there is no sound signature but what you make by tuning.

More powerful amp can outpower the weaker one. That's why you usually compare level matched and in their comfy zones. ;) And that's why I said "all else being equal".

By sound signatures we don't usually mean how you set it up, but whether it has a sound on its own. Like in direct mode.

Superior DAC is a buzzword. It's a money grabber. Check this 35$ dongle. It outperforms a few k standalone DACs. (the price dropped)

And amps are about clean power. They don't play music, they amplify the signal. For good sound you need good recordings, good speakers (OP doesn't really have those and doesn't want to change) and good listening room.

Switching between Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, NAD or any other well performing amp is not going to improve anything. You get the amp according to what SP levels you want/need, what your speakers ask for said SP levels and for what are your sources and what you need to connect to the amp.
 
D

Desiloth

Enthusiast
I would easily recommend a Yamaha Aventage RX-A2080 or if your budget is more then the RX-3080, both which are very good for music. I own the Elac B6.2 with a sensitivity of just 87 db and it plays even this loudly, but with super precision. I feel the punch all the time. I switch between different modes including Neural X for youtube music and sound so much better than my previous denon.

With Denon I could hear the music but with too much processing, like some surround artifacts which ruins the musicality. I'm sure the marantz is of the simlar sound but with a different sound signature. It is warm sounding reciever.

If you want more of a natural sounding reciever then the yamaha is one to go for.

The yamaha which I have mentioned has a superior DAC and has beefier amp to run most power hungry speakers.

For the RX-A2080, the rated power is 140 watts/ channel @ 8ohms and for the A3080 the rated power output is just 10 watts more at 150 watts/ channel.

I have a feeling that this will drive your speakers properly but you'll need an amp to get the full potential for the speakers.

Something from emotiva would be good to accompany with the Yamaha.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
Oh thank you finally not a troll xD. Thanks for the recommendations man, I'll look into those. Cheers.
 
D

Desiloth

Enthusiast
@Desiloth in order to make a decision you're trying to make, you need a huge amount of info you're obviously lacking. This is why it's hard if not impossible to help you. Usually when someone combines lack of info with a rigid attitude he inspires bad reactions.

Even if you prefer answers like the ones @Sachb gave you, those are the ones to avoid, he seems to know as much (as little) as you.

Receiver implies a pre amp.

You might get some gain from adding another to the exisiting one in the receiver, but it's hardly the way to go.

I'd risk it and say there's no such home audio speaker that needs 400 watts.

You can connect your PC into the AVR, that shouldn't be a problem.

A better way to go, if you lack power, would be to add a power amp to the chain.

Very reliable brands are Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, NAD, some Onkyos etc.

Emotiva had some issues lately to say the least.

Sachb imagining some processing he hears in Denon, or Denon being underpowered with 95 watts compared to an avr with 100 watts is just nonsense.
You know why the second half of your comment is good? Because it's not biased. It straight up answered my question that was thrown up into the air. One person told me to upgrade speakers, which just brought up another topic I didn't want to discuss.

The other one practically told me I was wasting my money by doing what I wanted to do, but with an arrogant attitude, he could have just said he doesn't recommend it plainly and simply being an experienced individual in A/V.

I also like what Sachb replied with because he tried to answer my question, he threw some receivers out there, and also mentioned he doesnt recommend pairing an AVR with a preamp plainly and simply.

I only came in here with a question, and first 2 replies instigated tension, so that's where the bad reactions came from.
 
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D

Desiloth

Enthusiast
For good sound you need good recordings, good speakers (OP doesn't really have those and doesn't want to change)
This is biased asf lol. My speakers are good when I say they are good. because they are my speakers, I use them, so I get to determine how I like them. They are adjusted to my likings! I am not an audiophile, I don't want no $500 tweeters okay?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
You should say this to lovinthhd who has no clue about both the brands.

Something tells me this forum is biased towards D/M.

I have been Denon fan for years untill I switched to Yamaha, now I'm completely a yamaha guy. What on earth does any Denon do better than the Yamaha besides sales?

Literally, nothing. They are entry level brand for the hifi world. I wouldn't even call Denon hifi anymore. The yamaha is definately mid-tier brand.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
LOL I have significantly more clues than you'll likely ever have. You prefer to be a fan boi based on one or two purchases, that's your prerogative. I've got and used enough gear they're simply tools for a job, and the avrs are more similar than different. Some of the features in the Denon appeal to me more than the Yamaha...you seem to have found your Yamaha more to your taste than your Denon. That's fine but doesn't mean your opinion is shared by all. By the way each of my Denons outweigh your Yamaha but that means little to nothing....
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Hello,

I am currently running a pair of Cerwin-Vega LS-15's both with woofer replacements of LaVoce WAF153.00 woofers.(Nominal is 400W originally, new woofers go for 500W) Also have a pair of Paradigm Model 11se Mk1(300W). Also will soon have a Centre woofer.

I am wondering what my best options would be for an A/V receiver and preamp for connecting to my computer. I do watch movies sometimes but am a huge music fan.(20/80 music) Currently I have a Harmon/Kardon AVR 130 that has been needing replacement. I am looking for something with lots of power and around 5 channels, maybe 7 if so. I think I will eventually hook up a preamp to the receiver, probably not right away.

I have been looking at Marantz receivers( Marantz SR5015 is what ive been considering, along with Anthem MRX 540) I'm just wondering what some of my best options would be, any recommendations would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
Budget is around 1500-2000(Looking for high power)
I believe you mean you want an AVR + an Amplifier (not Preamplifier).

The CV SL-15 is 8-ohm/94dB/2.83v/m, which means if you sit about 10 FT away from the speakers and use 100W of power, the volume level would be about 110dB, which is deafening level.

400W would be 116dB volume.

Have you measured the loudness of your speakers when you listen to music? Most of us don't listen louder than 90dB since that will lead to hearing loss.

How much power do you need to produce 90dB? You need about 1 Watt of power to produce 90dB from 10 FT away.

So I would just get an AVR without any external amplifier.

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
You know why your comment is good? Because it's not biased. It straight up answered my question that was thrown up into the air. One person told me to upgrade speakers, which just brought up another topic I didn't want to discuss.

The other one practically told me I was wasting my money by doing what I wanted to do, but with an arrogant attitude, he could have just said he doesn't recommend it plainly and simply being an experienced individual in A/V.

I also like what Sachb replied with because he tried to answer my question, he threw some receivers out there, and also mentioned he doesnt recommend pairing an AVR with a preamp plainly and simply.

I only came in here with a question, and first 2 replies instigated tension, so that's where the bad reactions came from.
You want reaffirmation of your assumptions this may not be the best place for you, especially when you come in hot with something like suggesting you add pre-amps to receivers. Speaker wattage ratings are of very limited use in any case, more about a limit before things melt down rather than a very useful number. Sensitivity is a better spec to judge amp needs by along with impedance load.

Most avrs are at least 7 channel these days but they won't have the amp power you were asking about either; let alone connecting pre-amps to a receiver. You'd need external amps for that much power so you'd at least need an avr with a full set of pre-outs.

Good luck.
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
I believe you mean you want an AVR + an Amplifier (not Preamplifier).

The CV SL-15 is 8-ohm/94dB/2.83v/m, which means if you sit about 10 FT away from the speakers and use 100W of power, the volume level would be about 110dB, which is deafening level.

400W would be 116dB volume.

Have you measured the loudness of your speakers when you listen to music? Most of us don't listen louder than 90dB since that will lead to hearing loss.

How much power do you need to produce 90dB? You need about 1 Watt of power to produce 90dB from 10 FT away.

So I would just get an AVR without any external amplifier.

Actually it's true 400 watts is a lot to ask but it would be better for him to stay close to that numberby including a power amp in his setup.

Wouldn't it help him at lower volumes?

He will still have more headroom.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
LOL I have significantly more clues than you'll likely ever have. You prefer to be a fan boi based on one or two purchases, that's your prerogative. I've got and used enough gear they're simply tools for a job, and the avrs are more similar than different. Some of the features in the Denon appeal to me more than the Yamaha...you seem to have found your Yamaha more to your taste than your Denon. That's fine but doesn't mean your opinion is shared by all. By the way each of my Denons outweigh your Yamaha but that means little to nothing....
Do you even know what it is like to scroll through the whole list of media files on the server through a Denon reciever??

Yamaha, makes it much easier, you don't have to actually scroll through a -z, you can skip through pages.

This is a feature where the Yamaha excels.

Have you even tried the yamaha Aventage seriously?

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mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Actually it's true 400 watts is a lot to ask but it would be better for him to stay close to that numberby including a power amp in his setup.

Wouldn't it help him at lower volumes?

He will still have more headroom.
not-sure-how-to-feel.png
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Actually it's true 400 watts is a lot to ask but it would be better for him to stay close to that numberby including a power amp in his setup.

Wouldn't it help him at lower volumes?

He will still have more headroom.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
I think if he just got a Yamaha RX-A1080, 2080, or 3080, it will have enough power for his speakers.

But the main point is, if he only listens to a max of 90dB, then the speakers would only need 1 watt of power. Even if he went crazy for 110dB, the speakers would still only need 100 watts, not anywhere near 400W.

The speakers will not sound any better by having a ton of power that the speakers just don't ever need.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Do you even know what it is like to scroll through the whole list of media files on the server through a Denon reciever??

Yamaha, makes it much easier, you don't have to actually scroll through a -z, you can skip through pages.

This is a feature where the Yamaha excels.

Have you even tried the yamaha Aventage seriously?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
I don't use the avr to browse files, I just send the file I want to play. I know what you mean, tho. I've heard others complain bitterly about Yamaha's old GUI/display of menus otoh. Just not a critical feature in my use in either case.

I have no need for another avr at this time. Yamaha was/is always a possibility, but for the price and feature set I went with Denon last coupla times. I'm pretty sure I'd prefer Audyssey over YPAO, particularly for better bass management features, particularly with the Audyssey Editor App available on the newer units. I'd prefer the PEQ of a Yamaha over the graphic eq of a Denon but I don't use the manual eq so a moot point for my use.
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
I think if he just got a Yamaha RX-A1080, 2080, or 3080, it will have enough power for his speakers.

But the main point is, if he only listens to a max of 90dB, then the speakers would only need 1 watt of power. Even if he went crazy for 110dB, the speakers would still only need 100 watts, not anywhere near 400W.

The speakers will not sound any better by having a ton of power that the speakers just don't ever need.
But if he's using it as full range speaker without having a sub woudn't it require more power. I just did some googling and this has some big arse 15 inch woofer.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
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