In-Ceiling Speakers

zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Those look like some nice speakers, how do they stack up against SpeakerCraft and Pyle?
If you are going to invest some money for a system, then I would
want something decent - even if they are ceiling speakers.

I would hands down skip Pyle, I would only buy them or Bose, for
something like talk radio.

I can not say much for SpeakerCraft - however, they do make decent
stuff.

The Snell is on close-out pricing, and is a real good deal.
Some Snell info
Snell Acoustics | Homepage
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I've personally bought Sonance, Speakercraft, Niles, and I've replaced B&W speakers with one brand: Monoprice.

Their better in-wall and in-ceiling speakers are as good as anything else you will find out there without getting a back box enclosed in-ceiling/wall speaker.

I always go with an 8" speaker and put clean amplification to it, but it delivers the volume I want, with decent low end response and if necessary, a subwoofer can be added.

Their in-wall 3-way 8" speakers are excellent.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
1) How hard is it to have speakers setup so that each room has its own volume control for the normal audio

2) and is it possible to have an Aux that overrides anything coming in so that someone could play their own music in their room.

3) Do boxes make a difference with sound performance, or are they more designed to isolate excess noise from bleeding through walls/floors?

4) What are the best speakers for under $120 and $150

5) What box(es) do you recommend, IF you recommend them at all.

6) What AMP(s) would you do in this kind of setup.
Okay, worth saying that there are a number of ways to do this, and depending on your willingness to put in a financial investment and how much you think you will use things, depends on what you will get.

I will say that the cheapest way is to put a volume control/speaker selector at the main equipment location, but it won't give local volume control or source selection.

The next way, as described previously is to use impedence matching volume controls and a single amplifier. Also cheap, but a bit more complex to setup since you have to install volume controls in each room. Still, you get local volume controls.

Add to this setup a multi-channel amplifier. Niles, Speakercraft, Sonance are all good. I use Rotel for my stuff.

Then you get into the other options which are pricier, and are simply better.

Sonos! This should be a go to product for people. It offers local and individual room amplification and control. You can use a multi-zone amp and/or an integrated amplified player. Each room will need its own amplification and really needs its own Sonos player for optimal results. You can control the source and volume in each room from an iOS or Android device. FULL home control for audio and if the players are located in the room, a local source can be made available.

My setup - Crestron. I use a preamp/matrix audio switcher with 16 audio inputs on it and 8 outputs. I cascade 3 of them which provides me up to 24 rooms of audio and then I put a 12-button keypad in each room or put in a RF remote control. Any rooms I want auxilliary audio to I provide an aux input plate in that room and make it available on that rooms keypad or remote. Along with that, iPhone/Pad control is available. I have a stack of four (at the moment) Rotel RMB-1048 amps to drive the audio to the rooms.

As mentioned in my previous post, I've gone with Monoprice speakers. I had $200 a pair Sonance speakers in my prior home and the Monoprice speakers sound better. All my wiring is 14 gauge to each location.

It's a fair bit about your budget and what you want to accomplish. My system is pretty much bulletproof, but it is also pricey. Sonos is cheaper and a very versatile option. Perhaps not as bulletproof, but still solid.

Everything else is typical.

BUT: If you are putting speakers into walls and ceilings, holes will need to be cut, and repairs and painting will be necessary. With a three story home and an unfinished basement and open attic, I had a lot of access... Still had about 20 holes to patch and many rooms getting a new coat of paint... including the ceilings. That number and requirement will not change regardless of the level of A/V system you choose to install.
 
D

Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
@ImcLoud
That video is amazing, great product selection and references. Also thank you for the input on the setups

@zieglj01
Yeah for some reason i was confusing Pyle with Polk (i dunno the quality difference) and i'm going to avoid the Pyle and Bose speakers, i'm looking for good audio quality for whole house music/audio.

@BMXTRIX are you talking about Monoprice Direct on 6.5" They look legit however my work has done quite a bit of work with monoprice and so far we haven't been impressed by some of their other products
Sonos looks good, however it doesn't seem to be near the complete solution of HTD's Lync system (which is killer). However would it be possible to get a list of parts and a diagram of how your setup at home is, i'm very interested in how its setup as i'm a DIY type person, as for the holes and such, this is on a new construction so i'll be doing massive pre-wire everywhere for all my componates, and when the drywall guys come, i'll have them cut the holes in the ceiling/walls for me before they texture the walls/ceililng.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
@BMXTRIX are you talking about Monoprice Direct on 6.5" They look legit however my work has done quite a bit of work with monoprice and so far we haven't been impressed by some of their other products
Sonos looks good, however it doesn't seem to be near the complete solution of HTD's Lync system (which is killer). However would it be possible to get a list of parts and a diagram of how your setup at home is, i'm very interested in how its setup as i'm a DIY type person, as for the holes and such, this is on a new construction so i'll be doing massive pre-wire everywhere for all my componates, and when the drywall guys come, i'll have them cut the holes in the ceiling/walls for me before they texture the walls/ceililng.
I'm not talking about their 6.5" speakers, but their 8" speakers...

For only $54.67 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 8 Inches Kevlar 2-Way In-Ceiling Speakers (Pair) - 80W Nominal, 160W Max | 8 Inches In-Wall / In-Ceiling Speakers

Monoprice can be hit or miss with certain products, but their TV mounts and their speakers are excellent as are many of their better cables. Their HDMI Base-T extender (single Cat-5) is awesome for long distance HD runs.

I don't have a wiring diagram for my setup right now and wouldn't bother anyway. I just keep a Word document with a spreadsheet of what is connected to what. I also did HD video distribution in my home using component video and prewired for HDMI video when I can afford a HDMI matrix switcher.

My one major recommendation is that you consider the history of ANY company you purchase whole house audio from and their actual popularity. Crestron and AMX systems are pricier (new) but have been around for 25+ years. A ton of new 'cheap' companies are out there, and a ton of new 'cheap' companies are out of business. Guess what happens when your pre-amp dies and they don't exist anymore? Or a keypad dies? Or your software is incompatible with Windows 9? You have to replace the entire system if that company is no longer in business. I have personally seen this happen after someone has spent thousands on a system, and it's just not a good conversation.

With what I've done with Crestron, I usually buy via eBay and check that stuff works, and then nothing I've bought has failed. So, the 8 zone/24 source pre amp is about $500 per piece. Amps are about $500 each (6 room, 12 channel). Keypads are about $100 each. RF remotes are about $125 each. Control system for about $500. RF receiver about $100.

So, for a 16 zone setup, you would have the following:
2 Pre-amps - $1,000
Control system - $500
3 amps (18 rooms potential) - $1,500
16 keypads/remotes - $1700
RF receiver - $100
$4,800 and it can be expanded about as much as you want to moving forward and is nearly totally bulletproof.

Add speakers & wiring and programming to make it all work.

I installed similar to this about 18 months ago and I've had two service calls - both were for wi-fi issues, so I just replaced their Linksys with a new model from another company and they've been solid ever since. Zero audio (or video for them) issues since installation.
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
What keypads do you suggest/recommend i am looking at Cestron but hasn't seen any yet.
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
Also how do you change the source per zone/speaker output. What kind of device is typically involved in that?
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
And if someone could comment on Russound's 6 zone (12 channel) amp i'd appreciate it as well.

Russound R-Series R1250MC 6-ZONE 12-Channel Power Amplifier Receiver

More specifically is it going to be able to push 20-ish speakers. (rough idea per floor/amp)

4 zones downstairs 5 zones upstairs. (so you kinda have an idea)

You guys have been awesome so far, i've learned alot and hope to find more to learn in this field.
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
@zieglj01 Is that price per speaker or per pair. Do you have any references to reviews and comparisons against other products?
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
Add to this setup a multi-channel amplifier. Niles, Speakercraft, Sonance are all good. I use Rotel for my stuff.
So i just realized this amp you mentioned, how much do you think a Rotel 12 Channel would cost to get? i'll need two amps regardless the route. So this may be a good place to start as well.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
@zieglj01 Is that price per speaker or per pair. Do you have any references to reviews and comparisons against other products?
They are $49 each.

No direct comparison reviews >>> however, those who have bought
them are happy, and no one has complained about the good sound.:)
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I've gone with a currently discontinued 8 channel Rotel (RMB-1048) because I really like the sound, but here are some excellent options:

Niles SI-1230 12 Channel Amplifier. AWESOME! 760514007376 | eBay

Denon POA-3012CI 12-Channel Multi-Zone Audio Distribution Power Amplifier | eBay

NILES SI-1260 SYSTEMS INTEGRATION HIGH POWER AMPLIFIER 12 CHANNEL MULTI-ROOM 760514008151 | eBay

ELAN D1200 12-CHANNEL DIGITAL POWER AMPLIFIER | eBay

SpeakerCraft BB1235 12 Channel Amplifier | eBay

This one is awesome...
Sonance Sonamp 1250MKII 12 Channel Amplifier - Black - 6 Zones | eBay

All of these amps should be stable to four ohms which means that any single channel can drive a couple of speakers without any issue. So, a 12 channel amp can drive about 24 speakers total, but only 6 stereo zones per amplifier. For the most part, I drive one speaker per amplifier channel. This proves to be about the absolutely most reliable setup possible. As well, I use banana plugs for all of my speaker connections to ensure that there are no shorts and a nice solid connection to the amp.

For keypads:
Crestron Decorator Function Keypad C2N-DBF12 | eBay

Once programmed, which must be custom written, you can choose a source from the keypad, or you can use iPhone/iPad control. As it is ALL custom programmed and not 'stock', it really can do anything.

In my home, I use the volume up/down keys to raise and lower blinds when the room is not in use. When the room is in use, the volume keys adjust volume as expected. Similarly, the forward backward buttons I sometimes use for lighting control (trigger a scene on/off).

But, more on subject, when a source is selected from the keypad, it triggers the corresponding input on the preamp. So, a PAD8a has 8 inputs (8 sources) and 8 outputs (8 rooms/zones). The Bipad8 has 16 stereo RCA inputs and 8 cat-5 type inputs and 8 outputs. I generally use the PAD8a for typical rooms, but use the bipad8 for the rooms which have extra inputs needed (local sources), such as my kid's bedrooms.

CRESTRON CNX-PAD8A AUDIO DISTRIBUTION PROCESSOR | eBay

Crestron CNX-BIPAD8 Audio Distribution Processor 8 Room Replac PAD8A | eBay
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Also how do you change the source per zone/speaker output. What kind of device is typically involved in that?
This is done with a matrixing pre-amp. Any distributed audio system has some version of this. Some are just matrixing amplifiers, but those are less common.

It has multiple inputs and multiple outputs and typically offers a pass-thru output for each input so more preamps can be added (more rooms).

In the photo below, the Crestron BIPAD8 has 16 cascadable inputs with matching buffered audio outputs for multiple units. It has 8 stereo outputs.

It also has 8 'rooms' connections for Crestron proprietary connections which are pricey and not really worth it IMO.

 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
What are you actually trying to spend? I talked to my electrician and he said he knows where there is a customer of his with a nice system that is going through a foreclosure and wants to sell his system...
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
as far as Amplifiers i'd like to spend as little as possible, granted i believe you get what you pay for, so i've been looking for higher end products, my goals for the parts are

Speakers: under 1400 (if i'm correct on placement i need 40 (20 pair) of them)
Amps: under 1100 shipped (i need 2 of them so max 550 each)
other tech such as keypads - meh, no goal here as of yet still trying to decide on the tech.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I have one of them, it doesnt work lol.... After my 12 channel blew for the 3rd time {and we never play it loud, I even had the electrician come out and check it to make sure it wasnt something in the house hurting the amps...} I went to the 6 zone box and the single amplifier... It has been a while now, NO problems...
I have been through this, it seems like the people happy with the 12ch amps are the people that never use them, or spend HUGE money on them... I was told by my electrician, who does all my smart home installs, he just did 46 windows for me with powered blinds that are wired to daylight sensors outside and motion sensors inside so you can set them up to be automatically closes when you are out of the room for a certain amount of time, but anyway he gave me some tips for advising customers Im building a house for that are interested in multi room audio..
1- No need for speakers in the living rooms, if they want built ins get a built in theater separate from the multi room...
2- inside and outside all at once, if they dont want outside now, sell them on running the wires so they can add it later because they will want it at some point.
3-directional speakers {the houses I build tend to be larger mid level designs, 2800-5000sq feet with 9' ceilings minimum}. My house has 9 everywhere except the formal parlor which is as high as 24', so directional speakers help point the sound where you want it..
4-sell a complete system because if not the home owner will try to finish himself and call a bunch of times asking questions I wont have the answers for...

Im a builder and I sell {or try to since it adds $'s per sq ft}, multi room audios, intercoms, smart panels, central vacuum, hardwood floors, security cameras, high eff comfort system, fresh air circulators, power awnings, ect... And when I come back to peoples homes after they have been there for a while {usually to fix the GD central vacuums}, I ask how everything is and most say "we hardley ever use the radio", I would have to say 90% lol, I honestly dont use mine, but my wife does.. When shes cleaning or gardening she uses it, and if I remember I will throw it on low when we have a party... Also when it was new, I would throw it on, and let the tv play through it if I was walking around the house.. But in my oppinion its one of them things that never pays for itself, breaks more often than any permanent household item should, and adds ZERO value to your home, it may help sell it, but most likely in 7 years when you sell {7 years is the average rite now, sick isnt it} the equipment will be grossly outdated, and new buyers will actually be trned of fby it, thinking about how much it will cost to remove!!!

Anyway, 40 speakers is A LOT, looking at your layout I thought 24 was too many...

If it was my house, I would do
4 out side {patio and porch}
2-dining
2-kitchen
2- near the entry way to have sound through that hall and stairway
2-in stairway for upstairs hall
thats 12 put them all on a imped matching box and power with one source one 2 channel amp...

Then do 2 in each bedroom with the separate sources and 10ch {12}amplifier ect... This way you will have the separate sources for the bedrooms where it will be use full, and the cost effective system down stairs for the common areas... For the 3 living rooms, simply wire it in through the home theater systems...

But 40 speakers, is just too much.. I cant picture it, you would have 2 in every room, bathroom, garage, closet... lol... I have 6 inside and 6 out and its a lot.. although I dont have them in the bedrooms, but my kids have their TV's and when they listen to music its on the ipod which is either in their ear or on a dock. And in the 2 guest bedrooms I have 2 TVs with sound bars, and my master has a surround sound... So there was never a need for it... If my wife is listening to music while shes cleaning, the upstairs hall speakers are plenty loud enough to fill the entire second floor {as long as you have the doors open}...

Anyway, hope this helps... Spend the extra money on geothermal ;)

Also check out the emp tek ceiling speakers they are around $60 a pair, may be worth a listen...
 
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Destreyf

Audioholic Intern
You think that speaker setup would work?

the Living Room downstairs is being converted to a Den

and the Family Room downstairs won't likely be used for home theater (yet) Though I'm going to per-wire it as well.

I will be setting up the Den with a 5.1 or 7.1 (gaming and such)

But i want to keep the home theater/surround separate from the whole home audio.

example 1: i don't want to have to turn on home theater/surround for whole home audio to function.
example 2: i have access to a Doorbell Interface module similar to the Niles DBI-2 (i can't remember the model number for it though) that i want to pipe through the amp using the global port (input bus).

So if i were to do it, i was thinking

2 mono in dining area
2 mono in kitchen
4 mono in Family Room(s) - This may be where i could save (8)
4 mono in each bedroom (Master, Bed 1, Bed 2, Bed 3 Bed 4, Bed 5, Den) (24)
2 mono in master bath (also thought about 1 stereo here)
1 stereo in laundry room
1 stereo in master walk in closet

which leaves me with a total of

38 mono (or 36 mono if i put stereo in master bath)
2 stereo (or 3 if i put one in master bath)

leaving me at 39-40 is this really excessive? i am not sure, but i want the experience to self driven. The above numbers don't include the garage, which i will be spending time in there as well (though the garage isn't an immediate priority)

I have not heard how loud a setup like this is, in which case i could realistically drop the speaker counts down a ways, its entire purpose is music.

It doesn't have to have 4 speakers in the bedrooms (just need optimal placements is all) Which could save me quite a bit of money (talking about cutting 12 speakers out of the equation here alone), and in the Family Room(s) i think it would be possible to use 2 speakers as well (another 4 speakers gone).

This lowers my total speakers by 16 (so 24/23 instead of 40/39) which would be a great help.

The other think is how well do Stereo speakers do, if its good enough i could get away with putting 1 stereo in each room (though i think that would be a poor choice) any input on this?

I am not an audiophile, so i wont be hearing the minor differences in quality/setup.
 

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