In-Ceiling Speakers

[Destreyf]

I know this is a Home Theater forum, but my request is more on the lines of playing Music throughout the house, i am currently building one and am trying to plan for In-Ceiling Speakers throughout the home. I have some idea's that i want to do, but do not know where to begin, or what to look at.

1) How hard is it to have speakers setup so that each room has its own volume control for the normal audio

2) and is it possible to have an Aux that overrides anything coming in so that someone could play their own music in their room.

3) Do boxes make a difference with sound performance, or are they more designed to isolate excess noise from bleeding through walls/floors?

4) What are the best speakers for under $120 and $150

5) What box(es) do you recommend, IF you recommend them at all.

6) What AMP(s) would you do in this kind of setup.
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Also i submitted my floor plan to HTD to see what they recommend, however i'd like to get the communities opinion as well.

The two rooms that i'm specifically looking at option 2 in are the Downstairs Living Room (Office), and the Upstairs Family Room (Theater Room)

I'm not planning on the upstairs and downstairs sharing an audio stream, they will be independant of eachother. Also i'm looking to put 1-2 speakers (maybe just 1 stereo speaker) on the patio out back, what would be an outdoor solution.

Downstairs:

Upstairs:

Sorry if this is a large request, I'm looking more for a direction than anything as I'm fairly new to Audio implementation. Please let me know any recommendations you have.

 

[sawzalot]

Your request is not quite as big as your picture ^^^
You are making it difficult to read this.
Try to resize if possible, thanks.

 

[Destreyf]

I cannot update the url's to the images because of your reply . I didn't realize how big those pictures where when i uploaded them i use a 24" FHD monitor so things typically look small on my screen and i forget their true size.

If a moderator can change those the new url's are:

Downstairs: http://i47.tinypic.com/2v0lqtv.png
Upstairs: http://i49.tinypic.com/j0ku2b.jpg

Anyways sorry about that.

 

[slipperybidness]

I know nothing about this brand
Send Us Your Plans

Pulled this from this thread, on AH
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/81432-definite-audiofool-trying-avoid-mistake.html

 

[agarwalro]

What you are looking to achieve will not be cheap. For example, here is a system that meets all your needs. The website also has the speakers, wiring, etc. to go along with the amps and room controls. Their FAQ will greatly further your understanding of the puts and takes.

 

[Destreyf]

Thank you very much argarwalro for your follow-up, it has been very helpful.

This has given me a large amount of insight, and also given me additional questions,

1) what are some amplifier(s) for under $1100 that handles up to 24 channels. This can be a single amplifier or multiple. I would like to see multiple opinions. This is based on them offering 2x12 channel amps on their high end setup, if there's a way to get around having this many channels to reduce cost, I'd be very interested, i'm going to have a total of 10 zones. And I'd like to have stereo everywhere as this will be mainly used for music throughout the house.

2) Is there anyone who's used the HTD Lync Whole-House Audio System in their homes (or on a job) that can comment about quality.

3) Any information on HTD's speakers, they seem nice, but i can't find any reviews except what's on their site. (and i don't typically go off reviews on the companies website)

Sorry if these are stupid questions, I'd rather learn how to identify stuff for myself than have someone write up a "solves all".

 

[ImcLoud]

OK here is what I recommend and use...

Yamaha aw190 out doors... {if you are doing outdoor zones...} my out doors have these
Yamaha NS-IW280C - $75 each set of 2 Shop around, I have this exact model, and they sound great, plus they are very easy to put in ... And last a long time...

I also recommend doing 2- 6 channels {which is 12 speakers} for each zone using 2 of these 6-Channel Speaker Selector | eBay

Then use Jamo AT-A1 volume controls, these are not Impedence matching but the monoprice selector box is so you wont hurt your amps. I used to have the imped matching volume controls but they were terrible to deal with always breaking and going up and down in volume..

16ga wire will do fine and you will need a lot, I would get 16-4 and 16-2.... The 16-4 runs from each amp to each selector box, then from the box to the volume controls, the 16-2 runs from the vol control to each speaker, pretty simple..

For amps, I recommend 2 Dayton APA150's...

So here is how it works... You want 24 speakers which will be 12 zones of stereo {2 each zone}. So you need

12 sets of speakers $75 per set $900 total ebay has the best deal on the yamahas

2 6 zone selector boxes with imped matching $50 ebay again...

2 Dayton amps $160 each so $320 ebay again

12 Jamo at a1 vol controls 20 each, you guessed it ebay $240

total price- $1510.00 before you buy the wire...

Now onto how you are going to split it up into zones... I use zone 2 off of my Home theaters preamp, and run 1 source for all of my zones, since we ussually use it when we have parties or my wife is cleaning, one source is fine for use, with the setup above you can do 2 sources if you want more you need more amps, and more smaller selector boxes...

I have an Ipod wall system, iport iw20 but I can play anything that is plugged into my preamp throughout the entire house and out side...

The daytons are perfect for this type of system and the yamahas scream with that little bit of power... Multi room sysem are meant for ambiance not really loud monitoring but running 12 of them speakers off of the dayton they can still go pretty loud...

A more expensive way of doing it is a multiroom amp {I believe they have 12 channels and down} but In my experience it doesnt pay off, you run a lot more wires, and the amps are expensive and problematic, I replaced mine a couple years ago with this type of system, the amp broke twice under warranty, and then the last time it was not covered, one entire side is out... and it cost $1500 {thats what you can do an entire system for...}

If you do want 12 separate zones, I would go with 12 daytons and then just use the volume controls direct with no selector box. It would be cable of being super loud, take up a lot of room and power though... then use a a couple audio selector boxes to all of the amps... Then each room would have its own separate system that could be all ran at the same time, I would say this adds... $2000 to the 1500, so $3500 would still be better than buying 2 $1500 12 channel amps...

Good luck feel free to ask any questions...

 

[ImcLoud]

Also, the Emotiva umc200 amps can be used for a little extra power instead of the daytons, but they are twice the price $350 each, but instead of 75w per channel they are 125... Also they look good in the ht rack...

 

[Destreyf]

I think this is a good setup. Though I'm looking for something easier to manage. I also am looking to have local audio inputs. Running 12 amps is an incredibly high amount of power usage, and connectors, i'm planning on having this all centralized in a single location. So far the best concepts have been Introducing the Lync Whole-House Audio System and if i went without the local input stuff HTD Mid-Level Whole-House Audio System which is significantly cheaper than the lync (though i still need the ceiling speakers in both setups)

 

[Destreyf]

Here's a setup that I've looked at investing into.

1 x Lync 12
2 x Daytona 12 Channel Amplifier
9 x LyncPad (for my 10 zones)
3 x Lync Source Input Panel (Living Room + Dining Room + Bedroom 4)

Of course i haven't decided on Speakers as of yet, the advantages to this setup is the Intercom system that Lync has, and that any zone can use any source/zone.

This setup (without speakers) is expensive compared to your solution, though i think the end result is worth the price. However I'm wondering what alternative's are on the market to a setup like this.

Price Breakdown:

Lync 12: 1,299.00
Daytona Amps: (2x450) 900
LyncPad: (9x119) 1071
Audio Input: (3x19) 57

Total: 3327

So there's a serious difference in price with what i would like, and what you suggested, which is a viable alternative.

Lync's 6 Zone Amp starts are $699 for 40w@8ohm/60w@4ohm, and $1299 for their 6 Zone 65w@8ohm/100w@4ohm. While the amps are nice, i can get the Daytona 6 zone (12 channel) for about 450 online, haven't even checked ebay yet. I can also order alot of the speaker/amp/wiring through my work as they deal with a large volume of audio enhancement for schools, they get some killer rates.

 

[ImcLoud]

For the amount we use ours, I could never justify spending that kind of money, the most expensive system I looked into {I believe was nutone} at least had an intercom built into it..
I build houses for a living {although not lately}, and I have seen systems from mild {like mine, a simple 12 speakers inside and 8 outside {we have 4 porches}, 2 amps, selectors, and volume controls. My house is 4000sq ft 4 bedrooms} I didnt put the multi room system in the bedrooms because they all have there own TV/Ent center, the multi room is basically for hearing music no matter where you are, the hall speaker splay plenty loud enough to hear in the bedrooms, but if someone is in their room and wants to listen to music they can simply throw the av system on...} to wild.. I did a house where they picked the LV contractor, they had power blinds, remote aperated fans, stoves, ect, I have pictures of the cat 5 cables running through the house it was at least 8 inches thick!!! But anyway, the multi room system was also a video intercom and each room was linked to sat radio... I want to say he paid about $15K on it... and I would be surprised if it added $1000 to the value of the house...

Anyway that is neither here nor there.... But I built my house and I know how you feel want to do everything now before the walls are up... Personally before I spent $5K on a multi room system I would put Linear Actuaters in all the rooms, that would only be $600 a room!!! And if you ever go to sell, people would be impressed!! I wish I learned about them before I built, now its too late... I did a house for a customer who was from the west coast, he had Firgelli automations come rite out and tell him what he needed, it only cost him $600 per unit!!!

 

[Destreyf]

What are Linear Actuaters, like i first said, i'm open to suggestions/recommendations. I'm planning my pre-wire and i probably will purchase the end system later in the year.

 

[zieglj01]

Here's a setup that I've looked at investing into.

1 x Lync 12
2 x Daytona 12 Channel Amplifier
9 x LyncPad (for my 10 zones)
3 x Lync Source Input Panel (Living Room + Dining Room + Bedroom 4)

Of course i haven't decided on Speakers as of yet, the advantages to this setup is the Intercom system that Lync has, and that any zone can use any source/zone.

Take a look at some Snell speakers, on close-out pricing.
SNELL OH-T7 Full-range 6.5-inch coax “Direct Power†waveguide Each | Accessories4less

 

[Destreyf]

Those look like some nice speakers, how do they stack up against SpeakerCraft and Pyle?

 

[ImcLoud]

Sorry TV lifts, its a mechanism that makes the tvs come down from the ceiling... They are simple to install, and setup, they just plug in and bolt to the framing... I wish I had put them in my house, but I had no idea they existed never mind that they were so cheap.. Also they are so over built its not funny, so its not like something that is going to break all the time, they are actually super reliable... Just adds something to your house that puts you into the custom field.. I am going to put one over my fireplace some day, but now I have to frame it in upstairs since there is a closet over the fireplace... but they only need a 36x9 bump out that you just block in...

 

[Destreyf]

Okay, that's what i thought you meant by actuators, I thought about that, but in my household the TV's would never end up in the "Up" position due to how often they're used, i'd rather wall-mount the TV's. Which i am planning on doing.

 

[ImcLoud]

Thats what I have also, wall mounted works, its just that little wow factor, the houses I seen them in have them wired so they go up when the tv is shut off, it just looks so clean with no TV in the room... I still to this day kick myself...

 

[Destreyf]

I'm looking through eBay at a TON of ceiling speakers that are actually quite cheap however i do not know how well they would hold up or perform.

With the amp(s) i'm looking at pushing 40w a channel on 8ohm and 60w a channel on 4ohm what would you say the max speaker wattage to look at? 30w like the yamaha's you were talking about or? i see alot of 200-300 watt ceililng speakers, does this mean for a pair, or each typically?

example: 150W 2-Way Home Theater In-Wall/Ceiling Center Channel Surround Sound Speaker | eBay
and 200W 2-Way Home Theater In-Wall/Ceiling Center Channel Surround Sound Speaker | eBay
and Pyle Pylepro Pdic61rd In-ceiling Speaker - 200w (pmpo) - 2-way Speaker 068888723169 | eBay

lol i realize how limited my knowledge is, what wire would you suggest for 4ohm vs 8ohm still 16 gauge?

 

[Destreyf]

Also would you recommend mono or stereo speakers (dual voice coils).

and size 8", 6.5", 5.5" or something else.

 

[ImcLoud]

Here is what I ran into, the higher rated speakers {wattage} also had a higher lower wattage rating, as in 30-100 vs 5-30 for the lower wattage speaekers, and for some reason, when playing the system at a quiet level {for instance while cleaning the house} they sounded sub par, when I asked why this was I was told there was not enough power, and sure enough when I turned the volume up they cleared up, but now were too loud.. So I went with the lower wattage speakers..

This is how I figured it out...
I have the speakers spaced so you are never more than 15 ft from the speaker, the loudest we will ever play out multi room system is 85 db, {I just turned a zone on at the level we usually listen and checked the spl and its actually around 72db} so a speaker with sensitivity rating of 85db only needs 30 watts to hit 85db and at our normal listening level {low 70's} I only need 5 watts per speaker.... So dont get too caught up on power/wattage. Another thing to think about it, the multi room systems are nice, but you can really listen to them loud and if that is your intention than you need to invest in at least 12 wall subs, because I have listened to almost every ceiling driver made {ok not all but Ive owned 4 different ones, and listened to at least 13 that I can think of}, and they dont produce a lot of bass, I would say if you plan on going over 25 watts per channel invest in the subs... And try to get speakers that are directional, I had some Boston acoustic ceiling speakers {I returned them, and they were expensive} and they sounded terrible, I called tech support and they said I had them to close to the wall and I would need to add a half moon sopcer to tilt them away from the wall... The yamahas and some others come tilted in there carriage so you can turn them towards the listening areas...
If you buy 24 200 watt speakers, you know your not getting a 5000 watt amplifier

I would get 2 single vc speakers for stereo...

PS I wouldnt buy any of them speakers you listed, keep looking, I seen an auction with a ton of bose ceiling drivers for one price { bose are crap but better than pyle}..

http://vimeo.com/45385740 heres a video for ya..

Them snells are a good deal for sure, those are 88db sens. so that means you only need 20-25 watts to get them to 85db at 15'