In-Ceiling HT Question (Paradigm?)

[Trihonda]

Hi All,
First time post here. We just moved and our new house is pre-wired for in-cieling speakers. I had a media room in my old house that consisted of a 50" plasma, upper-level Technics HU, Bose 301 III front (wall mounted), Bose 141 surrounds (Side mounted), a Bose VS-100 center, and a 12" power JBL sub.

I really liked the way the Bose performed in my old space, but I realize the issues with Bose (so don't slam me). In any event, the current set-up (in-celing and my wife's sense of asthetics) won't support the Bose or wall mounted speakers. So I'm in the market for in-ceiling. My new space is a 14' by 19' room. The speaker wires are located approx. 4' from each of the corners, and the listening area is dead center of the room.

A local audio shop has steered me towards the Paradigm line of in-ceiling speakers, consisting of a CS-60R-30 (30 deg front angled cone) for the fronts, CS-60R (downfiring 6.5" speakers) for the surounds, and a CC-190 center. I think it's important to match the timber, so a complete replacement is in order. However, they didn't have any in-ceilings to demo. I did my best demo-ing a lower line of smaller Paradigm bookshelf speakers, the Monitor series "Atom" (with the shop's cheapest amp) and the above listed center to somewhat gauge the sound of the speakers (accounting for sound losses of in-ceiling speakers). I was blown away.

I'm sure the biggest difference was the center, which is significantly nicer than my bose, but the little bookshelf speakers were awesome too. Do you think I am going to be as happy with the in ceilings (like the sales guy said?), or am I setting myself up for a letdown (with such an innaccurate demo situation)? I did demo all the speakers seperately (without sub), so I don't think the sales guy was playing any major tricks on me.

One other point of concern is my amp is rated at 100wx5 and generally delivers clear power, but the Paradigms are not rated super effiencient (89db sensitivity).

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly apreciated. I've no experience with Paradigms, but I do know good sound. I liked the speakers a lot.

My only other audiophile experience comes from car-audio, where I competed for a few years, winning a few best-in-shows for concentrating on SQ with next-to-nothing for total wattage (~80w total), rather than high SPL. Home audio is foreign to me.

 

[Midcow2]

Sounds like good choice!

Hi All,
First time post here. We just moved and our new house is pre-wired for in-cieling speakers. I had a media room in my old house that consisted of a 50" plasma, upper-level Technics HU, Bose 301 III front (wall mounted), Bose 141 surrounds (Side mounted), a Bose VS-100 center, and a 12" power JBL sub.

I really liked the way the Bose performed in my old space, but I realize the issues with Bose (so don't slam me). In any event, the current set-up (in-celing and my wife's sense of asthetics) won't support the Bose or wall mounted speakers. So I'm in the market for in-ceiling. My new space is a 14' by 19' room. The speaker wires are located approx. 4' from each of the corners, and the listening area is dead center of the room.

A local audio shop has steered me towards the Paradigm line of in-ceiling speakers, consisting of a CS-60R-30 (30 deg front angled cone) for the fronts, CS-60R (downfiring 6.5" speakers) for the surounds, and a CC-190 center. I think it's important to match the timber, so a complete replacement is in order. However, they didn't have any in-ceilings to demo. I did my best demo-ing a lower line of smaller Paradigm bookshelf speakers, the Monitor series "Atom" (with the shop's cheapest amp) and the above listed center to somewhat gauge the sound of the speakers (accounting for sound losses of in-ceiling speakers). I was blown away.

I'm sure the biggest difference was the center, which is significantly nicer than my bose, but the little bookshelf speakers were awesome too. Do you think I am going to be as happy with the in ceilings (like the sales guy said?), or am I setting myself up for a letdown (with such an innaccurate demo situation)? I did demo all the speakers seperately (without sub), so I don't think the sales guy was playing any major tricks on me.

One other point of concern is my amp is rated at 100wx5 and generally delivers clear power, but the Paradigms are not rated super effiencient (89db sensitivity).

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly apreciated. I've no experience with Paradigms, but I do know good sound. I liked the speakers a lot.

My only other audiophile experience comes from car-audio, where I competed for a few years, winning a few best-in-shows for concentrating on SQ with next-to-nothing for total wattage (~80w total), rather than high SPL. Home audio is foreign to me.

Paradigms make very good speakers! Your amp will easily drive the speakers (actually 89dB is average sensitivity), assuming they have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms. If they are 4ohms you might need more power ( i just check the CS-60R-30 are 8 ohms you are okay). I won't bash your Bose, I used to be a Bose bigot, but LOL I have changed over to Definitve Technology which by the way also makes some very good ceiling speakers ( I have UIW BP/A installed as surrounds in the Den HT, my main HT system). Here is a link if you are interested http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/inwall_/inwall_bipolar_.html

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker options

In-celing speakers should work great for the surrounds and paradigm is a good brand. I would try to avoid in-ceilings for the front channels, however, as it is a significant performance compromise.

Consider in-wall or on-wall speakers. The in-walls mount flush and the grills can be painted to match the wall color. The on-wall speakers like the milenia series can flank the sides and botom of your display.

The AH store also has some EMP on-wall speakers for $100 each.

 

[Midcow2]

jcPanny makes good recommendation about fronts

In-celing speakers should work great for the surrounds and paradigm is a good brand. I would try to avoid in-ceilings for the front channels, however, as it is a significant performance compromise.

Consider in-wall or on-wall speakers. The in-walls mount flush and the grills can be painted to match the wall color. The on-wall speakers like the milenia series can flank the sides and botom of your display.

The AH store also has some EMP on-wall speakers for $100 each.

jcPanny makes a very good recommendation about the front speakers.

Also Cambridge Audio S30s are very good ( also small W6.3" x H12.6" x D8.6") bookshelf speakers at $219 /pair. http://spearitsound.amazonwebstore.com/Cambridge-Audio-S30-Speakers-Natural-Oak/M/B00196SJOI.htm?utm_campaign=froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle

 

[Trihonda]

Thanks for the advice. However, I already have wires (AND holes) in my ceiling, and would like to avoid having to patch them up. If people think the in-ceiling will sound like absolute A**, I would consider an out of wall front. However, if the in ceiling Paradigms (with the 30 degree angled cone) will sound decent (even if not amazing), then I'd rather go that route. Any recommendations either way (and which Paradigm bookshelf/front should I go with if in ceilings are forbidden)?

Second question. I have a ton of really expensive adhesive Dynamat material from my car audio days. Would it pay/help to line the area in the ceiling above the speakers (joists) with dynamat?

 

[Midcow2]

Thanks for the advice. However, I already have wires (AND holes) in my ceiling, and would like to avoid having to patch them up. If people think the in-ceiling will sound like absolute A**, I would consider an out of wall front. However, if the in ceiling Paradigms (with the 30 degree angled cone) will sound decent (even if not amazing), then I'd rather go that route. Any recommendations either way (and which Paradigm bookshelf/front should I go with if in ceilings are forbidden)?

Second question. I have a ton of really expensive adhesive Dynamat material from my car audio days. Would it pay/help to line the area in the ceiling above the speakers (joists) with dynamat?

Could you still use the celing speakers as from surrounds and also have some separate front speakers ? That might be a good compromise solution. Or you could try with just ceiling and in-wall and if the SQ is not good enough add front speakers!

I am not sure dynamat will help that much, the noise is not coming from the outside like car road noise. In this case the speaker would be creating the noise, but most quality in-wall or ceiling speakers have noise minimized.

 

[mazersteven]

The most important issue with in-ceiling speakers is the ability to aim the speakers at the listening area.

Here is what I think you should do. Get a protractor, and place it on the ceiling where your mains would be installed. Try to get a good idea of where the speakers will be aiming with the 30° angle. If the 30° angle is no where near the listening position (preferably right in front of the sweet spot) then the Paradigm speaker will not be good.

I also suggest you use an in-ceiling for your center channel.

 

[mazersteven]

(and which Paradigm bookshelf/front should I go with if in ceilings are forbidden)?

Paradigm Studio series

 

[mazersteven]

Second question. I have a ton of really expensive adhesive Dynamat material from my car audio days. Would it pay/help to line the area in the ceiling above the speakers (joists) with dynamat?

If possible you would want to use a sound enclosure.

 

[Trihonda]

The most important issue with in-ceiling speakers is the ability to aim the speakers at the listening area.

Here is what I think you should do. Get a protractor, and place it on the ceiling where your mains would be installed. Try to get a good idea of where the speakers will be aiming with the 30° angle. If the 30° angle is no where near the listening position (preferably right in front of the sweet spot) then the Paradigm speaker will not be good.

I also suggest you use an in-ceiling for your center channel.

Thanks for the advice. I think the front ceiling speakers would be aiming right at the main listening position, so hopefully that would work. I still want decent sound though, so I'm open to scrapping the front in-ceiling to go with on-wall (mounted bookshelf style speakers) if in-ceiling sound will suck (compared to on-wall). How much better is on-wall?

The "Studio" series... How affordable? The 30 degree in ceiling speakers cost about $430, so I'd want to spend no more than that for fronts (hopefully a little less).

I am not wanting to do a ceiling center (as fishing wires is what I want to avoid). So the enclosed center is what we'll have to live with.

I was thinking the Dynamat would help with sound insulation (so upstairs bedrooms don't hear the sound), and maybe a little with keeping sound waves moving in the right direction.

 

[mazersteven]

(mounted bookshelf style speakers). The "Studio" series... How affordable? The 30 degree in ceiling speakers cost about $430, so I'd want to spend no more than that for fronts (hopefully a little less).

The Studio series is IMO Paradigms best value for sound quality. But they can't be had for under $430. You will have to look at Paradigms Monitor series.

Can your speakers go on stands?

Excellent sound quality IMO for under $430 bucks.

http://av123.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,172/category_id,21/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,37/

 

[Trihonda]

The Studio series is IMO Paradigms best value for sound quality. But they can't be had for under $430. You will have to look at Paradigms Monitor series.

Can your speakers go on stands?

Excellent sound quality IMO for under $430 bucks.

Pardigm Monitor series? I think that is the series of the center I'm looking at. Any suggestions for model number I should check out?

According to the sales guy, he asserts that the 30 degree in ceiling units sound amazing (not quite as good as enclosed speakers, but still really good). If that's true, I'll go with those. If enclosed speakers will be a night and day difference (to the untrained ear), then I will get the enclosed speakers. I suppose I'm looking for anyone with experience with these in-ceiling speakers compared to on-wall.

They can go on stands, but I'd like to avoid it if possible (for the clean install).

 

[mazersteven]

According to the sales guy, he asserts that the 30 degree in ceiling units sound amazing (not quite as good as enclosed speakers, but still really good). If that's true, I'll go with those. If enclosed speakers will be a night and day difference (to the untrained ear), then I will get the enclosed speakers.

A great sounding in-ceiling speaker installed improperly. Were placement is not ideal. Proper aiming of the drivers is not right. Will cause a bad HT experience.

 

[Midcow2]

very good recommendation mazersteven!

The most important issue with in-ceiling speakers is the ability to aim the speakers at the listening area.

Here is what I think you should do. Get a protractor, and place it on the ceiling where your mains would be installed. Try to get a good idea of where the speakers will be aiming with the 30° angle. If the 30° angle is no where near the listening position (preferably right in front of the sweet spot) then the Paradigm speaker will not be good.

I also suggest you use an in-ceiling for your center channel.

very good recommendation mazersteven!

 

[Trihonda]

A great sounding in-ceiling speaker installed improperly. Were placement is not ideal. Proper aiming of the drivers is not right. Will cause a bad HT experience.

So, odds are a (front) enclosed speaker will be more forgiving as far as placement is concerned? The in-ceiling's will be more difficult to get good sound, whereas the enclosed will allow flexibility in moving seating (sweet-spot) around, etc...

I'm off to the audio shop (cash in hand) in 30 minutes to iron out a deal and buy new speakers. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated.

So, if I gather correctly, I might be able to afford Paradigm "monitor" series speakers (Titan model?) for roughly the same price as the in-ceilings. If that be the case, the Titan's would proably blow me away and I should go that route? Any experience with the Titan or other "Monitor" series bookshelf speakers?

Sorry for all the questions and indecisions. I plan to keep whatever system I get for a very long time (like I did with my Bose), so I want to get the best possible system for the money.

Thanks again for the fantastic responses.

 

[mazersteven]

I'm off to the audio shop (cash in hand) in 30 minutes to iron out a deal and buy new speakers. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated.

So, if I gather correctly, I might be able to afford Paradigm "monitor" series speakers (Titan model?) for roughly the same price as the in-ceilings. If that be the case, the Titan's would proably blow me away and I should go that route? Any experience with the Titan or other "Monitor" series bookshelf speakers?

I am not a fan of the Monitor series. That does not mean you will not like them. But you will never know just how much better sound quality you can get if your running in 30 minutes. And yes you can get better sound quality for your money.

 

[Trihonda]

I am not a fan of the Monitor series. That does not mean you will not like them. But you will never know just how much better sound quality you can get if your running in 30 minutes. And yes you can get better sound quality for your money.

I'm heading out now. I did like the sound of them, but I suppose I could get better. I'm getting the dealer to discount roughly 10%, but I still have not completely decided on in-ceiling vs. enclosed. I think the advice received here will make me a better consumer.

THANKS!!!!!!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I had some suggestions but you are already at the store. Best of luck to you and let us know what you got!

 

[mazersteven]

I had some suggestions but you are already at the store. Best of luck to you and let us know what you got!

I wonder what other speakers the store offered?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I dont know but I have become a SC fan. I would be willing to build a system around them if I had that kind of constraints in my room.

I wonder what other speakers the store offered?