iLink for the rest of us...when?

[Rip Van Woofer]

Quoth Gene from another thread here:

If I were spending $4K on a receiver or pre/pro+ amp, I would'nt even consider a solution without i.link or other proprietary xmission for DVD-A/SACD.

Which got me to wondering: any educated guesses on when we'll see that on most gear at realistic prices for Joe Audiophile?

Is record company paranoia the only thing keeping it from being more widespread?

 

[gene]

Rip;

Denon have a receiver with i.link for about $1200. I believe you will see more receivers in this price class introduced at Cedia with i.link. Pre/pros are always a few generations behind on technology. I am working with a company that will be introducing a pre/pro for around $1500 which (if I have my way) will have i.link. Stay tuned....

 

[keenan]

Rip;

Denon have a receiver with i.link for about $1200. I believe you will see more receivers in this price class introduced at Cedia with i.link. Pre/pros are always a few generations behind on technology. I am working with a company that will be introducing a pre/pro for around $1500 which (if I have my way) will have i.link. Stay tuned....

Which Denon receiver are you speaking of? The $1200 3805 has Denon Link but no IEEE1394 interface.

Jim

 

[gene]

Keenan, you are correct and sorry for the confusion. However, we expect to see receivers in the $1k price range with active i.link soon.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Apologies for not being up on all this since I'm still stuck in the analog paradigm, but of course you need an iLink/Firewire/IEEE 1394 port on both the receiver or prepro and the source component to have a purely digital signal path between them. So, has it finally become less "politically incorrect" (to the record companies) to have this arrangment, thus making proprietary solutions like the Denon Link redundant? Will we soon be able to connect (say) an iLink-equipped Denon universal player to an iLink-equipped Harman/Kardon receiver, totally bypassing the analog I/O? Oh, frabjous day if it is so!

'Course, I know it would be at the price of some kind of copy protection or watermarking scheme.

Looking forward to more on that prepro, too, Gene!

 

[djoxygen]

Tangent - HDMI

What thoughts and/or knowledge is out there on 1394/FW/i.Link vs. HDMI?

400 Mb/s FireWire is capable of transmitting SD video along with fairly high resolution audio, but depending on compression, may not handle HD video. (I haven't seen data rate specs from HD-DVD or Blue-Ray, so can't speak to either of these.)

Will/should HDMI supercede 1394 or can/should they coexist?

I'm holding off on a pre/pro purchase because of this very question. I'm hesitant to land the last, best analog system just as digital interconnects are coming into their own. And aside from the as-yet-vaporware IR RDC-7.1, and the possible Anthem D1 i.Link expansion, I'm not aware of anyone allowing for future digital expansion on a current analog box.

 

[Rob Babcock]

At this point I can't see being really hung up on having an iLink connection. The only reason I can see for wanting it is if: 1) You intend to perform digital speaker/room correction on the hi rez signal in digital domain OR 2) You are going to keep the signal digital right up to the speakers via pure digital amplification OR 3) You honestly think your prepro/receiver has better DACs than the player.

Take the Denons for example. The DAC they use in the receiver is really no better than the one the player uses. So what's it really matter if the conversion takes place in the player or the receiver? Sure, the latter lets you ditch 3 pairs of interconnects, which in theory has to help, but in practice just how much degradation do you think you're getting with the ICs? Besides, it's just a matter of time before the high end is deluged with $1k Firewire cables, too.

IMOHO, only reasons 1 & 2 are technically compelling, and they're both fantasies for most people. I don't know of any high end companies doing #2 (although ironically Sony is doing just that in the cheaper stuff, albiet without DVD-A), and #1 is too expensive for the average guy.

 

[djoxygen]

As usual, Rob, your points are excellent.

I know it's coming, but the $1K FireWire cable. Hah! That'll be a moment to remember. Hmm... let's see... Discovery Channel HD is producing the content in Final Cut Pro with a FireWire cable that came free with their PowerBook *4, so in order to avoid any further degradation, I should spend $1,000 to make sure those 1s and 0s are so perfectly formed that if I had a microscope, I could watch the electrons fly by and decode the data myself. Ha-ha!

(Of course I exaggerate, but still, one born every minute, right Mr. Barnum?)

For me personally, the reasons to go all digital:

1) Simplicity and stability of interconnects - I will always trust one thing more than I trust 6 things

2) Preserving the data stream as far through the chain as possible - the longer those 1s and 0s keep from becoming infinitely variable voltages, the better

In my fantasy world, everything would be SDI video with embedded 8 channel AES audio. A card to do same for a DVCAM video deck is about $1K, so it's politics, not cost and technology that's holding us back.

 

[gene]

You honestly think your prepro/receiver has better DACs than the player.

Yes in many cases the Receiver has a better dac implementation than the DVD player with perhaps the rare exception to the DVD-5900. In addition, many receivers/pre/pros only have one global channel trim setting making it difficult to calibrate for all formats. Most Universal DVD players have very limited bass management, pathetic 1dB channel trim adjustments, poor test tone integration and limited delay compensation (no sacd).

Add the fact that you can go from (6 RCAs + 1 digital cable) to 1 digital cable certainly makes my job much easier as it also frees up much needed space behind the gear.

I just rehooked the 5803 to the 5900 in my ref system and still can't get the bass levels right for SACD. Boy do I miss i.link

 

[mitch57]

Gene,

Are you saying that you have the 5900 connected to your 5803 via the 6 analog connections? Or are you saying that you have the 5900 connected to the 5803 with the denon Link and you still can't get the bass right?

 

[gene]

I use dlink for DD/DTS and DVD-A. I don't have a 5803A so dlink doesnt work for SACD in my case. And yes, my calibration isn't perfect for SACD as it stands now. By the time I get it right, I will be moving onto 5805

 

[troytn]

Its amazing why Yamaha has the RX-z9 with firewire and no matching dvd player with firewire and Denon has dvd players with firewire and no matching recievers with firewire. (ok the upcoming $6,000 5805) What are these companies thinking?

Did I read that the RX-z9 does not do DSD SACD over firewire?

Maybe Yamaha will have a decent priced firewire dvd player soon?

It seems all the expense in the Denon firewire equipped players are in the DACS. Why spend all that money on DACS when one is going to use the firewire connection?

Then again I'm sure some would say to use the 5.1 outputs on lets say the Denon 3910 or 5900 dvd players on lets say the Yamaha rx-z9 would sound better then using the firewire connection.

Are the DACS in the rx-z9 that much better than the Denon dvd players?
what would one benefit from using the firewire on the rx-z9 vs the 5.1 analog hookups with these dvd players?

which would provide better bass management and better sound?

some company needs to come out with a sub $1,000 or even sub $800 dvd audio/SACD player with firewire.

Troy

 

[mitch57]

gene,
It must be nice to be able to continually upgrade as new products become available. Are these your personal toys or are the they the property of audioholics? Either way, I envy you!

 

[keenan]

I use dlink for DD/DTS and DVD-A. I don't have a 5803A so dlink doesnt work for SACD in my case. And yes, my calibration isn't perfect for SACD as it stands now. By the time I get it right, I will be moving onto 5805

I have a 3805/5900 combo and the DACs in the 5900 are clearly superior sounding than the 3805. For 2ch audio I use the analog outputs on the 5900. I also use Denon Link for DD/DTs and DVD-A although for SACD I've put an Outlaw ICBM between the 2 units and it works great. Since I can set delay and levels in the 5900 for SACD all I lose is BM, which is taken care of by the ICBM. Works great. Yes, I loose the room EQ function of the 3805 but the more I live with this receiver the less I like that function anyway. BTW, Denon Link does not work for SACD in anybodys case.

Jim

 

[Rob Babcock]

You may be right, Gene. I sure can't say "all players," but certainly in many cases the DAC in the player is the same or pretty equal to the receiver, especially in the case of your more budget models. And certainly I don't deny the tidyness of a one-cable connection. But I will say that the lack of iLink won't be a deal breaker for me (although I do get tired of the "spaghetti bowl" of cables!).

I agree that the setup & adjustment is usually better for receivers, and more flexible. The Denon player is one of the only ones on the market that has any bass management at all. It could be better, but it's pretty flexible.

To sum up, I'm all for iLink/Firewire, but it's just one small link in the chain as far as I'm concerned. My dream is still a system that keeps the signal digital from the disc/source all the way to the speakers, with all DSP/speaker/room correction done digitally. That will fulfull the promise of digital for me.

 

[gene]

Its amazing why Yamaha has the RX-z9 with firewire and no matching dvd player with firewire and Denon has dvd players with firewire and no matching recievers with firewire.

Ha ha thats a good point!

Are these your personal toys or are the they the property of audioholics?

Some are a little of both. Since I own Audioholics, its all good However most of the gear is on extended loan via manufacturers. I am not loyal to any gear long enough to keep it personally

I have a 3805/5900 combo and the DACs in the 5900 are clearly superior sounding than the 3805.

You may be right in this case but for different reasons. From memory, I think the dacs are similar in both units but the analog design implementation may be better in the 5900.

for SACD I've put an Outlaw ICBM between the 2 units and it works great.

Yikes another box and six more cables. Why not just use the bass management in the 5900? I suppose you have to disable "Source Direct" for that to happen and that can be a pain each time you switch between dlink and analog. See why we prefer one digital connection?

Denon Link does not work for SACD in anybodys case.

It does in Clints case. He has the software to enable it which I think will be publically available soon (if not already).

My dream is still a system that keeps the signal digital from the disc/source all the way to the speakers, with all DSP/speaker/room correction done digitally.

That would be nice and there are some systems that do that but they are expensive. Also, don't discount the importance of analog crossovers as supplements to digital ones in loudspeakers. Digital amps must also interface with a loudspeaker that has a constant impedance crossover else you could get some interesting effects. As for electronic room correction above a few hundred hertz, um it's interesting and sometimes entertaining

 

[Rob Babcock]

In the near future I expect active digital x-overs to make things even more "interesting". If I recall, the Panny setup that Newform created uses a Behringer digital crossover, with the Panny actively biamping.

There'll still be physical issues with the drivers, but an imaginative sort can easily extrapolate what some day may be possible with DSP. The comuter I'm typing this on would have been science fiction ten years ago. Likwise, my first PC was a 133 mhz Intel that cost me $1650! This computer (the slower of my two PCs) is 20 times faster (by clock speed) and cost less than 1/3 as much.

At any rate, I still think Firewire is a step in the right direction, but we're not really taking advantage of it like we could.

 

[Mudcat]

Thread Hijack - NO just old on pfart making a point.

Likwise, my first PC was a 133 mhz Intel that cost me $1650! This computer (the slower of my two PCs) is 20 times faster (by clock speed) and cost less than 1/3 as much.

You got off cheap. My first computer was an 086 that was a bargain at $3300.00.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, I ws a bit late to buy a PC! It's funny to look back now. My brother had a very early x86 that was around 33 mhz, seems like it was over $2k. Now your wristwatch is more powerful!

 

[mitch57]

gene,
I thought the Denon Link was already available for SACD. I have the Denon 3805 and am considering adding the new Denon 3910 with Denon Link to my system. Do you know where I would go to find out if it works for SACD with the Denon 3805 and 3910?