If I were to upgrade my towers, which one of these is the best deal?

[GranteedEV]

Don't you guys think we get too caught up in theories and seriousness of this hobby?

I think we get too caught up in this hobby, period.

Half the time we can't even listen to our speakers because it will rattle the house and bother others.

 

[Steve81]

I think we get too caught up in this hobby, period.

Half the time we can't even listen to our speakers because it will rattle the house and bother others.

You can say that again...

With regard to my recent subwoofer upgrade, I'd expect that given my usage patterns and the general notion that my old sub wasn't an awful POS, my new toy will give me a tangible, easily noticed benefit for maybe...10 minutes worth of reproduced explosions and other such effects cumulative over the next year or so. But man, that 10 minutes will kick serious @ss

 

[monkish54]

Honestly, if I were an undergrad looking for top-tier speakers to tie me over for several years, I'd be looking hard for some old S-3EX's. Significantly cheaper, still well-crafted, and I'm not at all convinced that the ceramic-graphite tweeter is actually a step down from the beryllium one.

Well, I have my Phil 2's. I don't really need anything else. The S-1EX/R900 would be a "I have a speaker fetish" purchase. Own them simply because I appreciate the engineering behind them.

I found a dealer who has the Intermezzo 4.1T for $1,000. I might very well pop on that once I have the funds! What an amazing piece of engineering and speaker history for such a low price.

I just got off the phone with the dealer. Said he's had the poor 4.1T's boxed up for years with less than an hour of play time. Poor speakers. Told me he'd have 'em setup waiting for me tomorrow.

 

[monkish54]

So, WARMACHINE4444, any updates??

 

[GranteedEV]

I think we scared him off with all this talk about squiggly lines and rap music.

 

[ousooner2]

I wish there were places like that to demo around Oklahoma City. You're lucky!

 

[DS-21]

Accuracy in reproduction doesn't exist because there is no accepted industry wide standard for it.

Sure there is, at least as to the input signal.

Now, what that input signal is, and what relationship it bears to the actual music, is an entirely different issue. One that, in this context, you're getting unduly hung up on because in this context it's simply not relevant. It's entirely out of the scope of the inquiry.

That said, I come from the position that it's reasonable and safe to presume that the artist wanted one to hear what's actually encoded in the music file. Others may disagree with that, of course. And preference testing has shown what a majority of people prefer to hear, in terms of loudspeaker measured performance, is fidelity to the input signal with some additional bass that varies based on the size of the reproduction venue (i.e. the smaller the listening room, the more "bass swell" it takes to get perceived flat balance).

As B&W will proudly note, they are also sited in recording studios and used for monitoring. Should we just chuck everything coming out of Abbey Road and Skywalker, as the two most prominent examples?

No, we should simply ignore such statements as marketing points without any real-world relevance. Just because a speaker company thinks it good marketing to give an expensive set of speakers to a studio...really, what thoughtful person gives half a damn about that?

As you'll note, nobody really agrees what accurate sound actually is, and the market is evidence of this.

No I did not, and will not, note that.

"Accurate" is well-known. That some loudspeaker makers or marketers, even when they have the in-house brainpower to do accurate* intentionally deviate from that in order to score a "house sound" does not refute what is known to be accurate reproduction. All that a sensible person can infer from that fact is that some firms are taking a bet that inaccurate speakers will establish a marketing niche for them.

*too many speaker companies, particularly at the "high end" don't have that brainpower; they're basically cabinetmakers who plop drivers in a box and fiddle with crossovers until they happen to hit upon something they can stand to listen to.

Well, I have my Phil 2's. I don't really need anything else. The S-1EX/R900 would be a "I have a speaker fetish" purchase. Own them simply because I appreciate the engineering behind them.

I found a dealer who has the Intermezzo 4.1T for $1,000. I might very well pop on that once I have the funds! What an amazing piece of engineering and speaker history for such a low price.

Ah, missed that. Shoulda read your sig.

The Intermezzos are a Floyd Toole design, right? After he replaced Andrew Jones at Infinity?

 

[monkish54]

Ah, missed that. Shoulda read your sig.

The Intermezzos are a Floyd Toole design, right? After he replaced Andrew Jones at Infinity?

It happens.

I did a Google search and it appears that is correct. I have a great respect for both Andrew and Floyd. (As well as Sean and Kevin!)

Normally, I'd find this inappropriate to post, but the story is in the ****ing LA Times so it's clearly not too personal!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-couple16-2008jun16,0,7346872.story

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-couple18-2008jun18,0,919747.story

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-couple-fl,0,5234821.flash

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0616-couple-pg,0,3755023.photogallery

I'm really really happy for Kevin!! Think Floyd was there?

 

[Steve81]

Sure there is, at least as to the input signal.

Now, what that input signal is, and what relationship it bears to the actual music, is an entirely different issue.

Of course it isn't a different issue. If ANY adjustments are being made to a signal to account for things like iPod ear buds, "certifiable fidelity" is gone. You might as well be trying to calibrate Audyssey for two different sets of speakers and combining the results. In fact, that's exactly what it's like.

Just because a speaker company thinks it good marketing to give an expensive set of speakers to a studio...really, what thoughtful person gives half a damn about that?

Presumably anybody that cares about music from those studios. The more studios B&W can give away their speakers to, the closer they come to being able to (rightly IMO) claim they ARE reference. It won't matter if you've got a speaker that measures better if the signal is calibrated for "ideal" sound on B&W.

"Accurate" is well-known.

Some aspects of "accurate" are de-facto accepted: reasonably flat frequency response, low distortion, low compression, etc, that's easy. But you're still left with a pretty wide variety of speakers even after those variables are accounted for, and that's IMO the gorilla in the room when trying to approach real "certifiable accuracy". There is no "reference" standard by which everything else can be calibrated. It's not like buying a meter stick.

 

[Steve81]

So that this doesn't drag on indefinitely, I'll add in some last words and leave it be:

This quote

It (the circle of confusion) is only broken when the professional monitor loudspeakers and the consumer loudspeakers sound like each other - when they have the same sonic signature, i.e., when they are similarly good. (Of course, sounding alike also includes the interface with the room and the listener within it.) Then, and only then, can we hope to preserve the art. All else is playing games.

Wasn't just some fantasy that I made up: it was part of a key note speech delivered by Floyd Toole at the opening of the AES convention in November of 2001.

I think it's implications and potential to raise issues are pretty clear, and I think I've laid them out as well as I am able. The thought is sobering enough as I said, and it's especially interesting to me when I see many different speakers bandied about as "accurate" on various audio forums, yet they can be so very different. Certainly nobody is going to mistake an Ascend CBM-170 with a Philharmonic 3 in spite of the fact that both are good examples of fine engineering, and it goes well beyond the added bass extension of the Phil. "Accuracy" as I'm seeing it doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. To sum up my thoughts:

1. All professional monitors (which most certainly has to include the B&Ws that DS-21 dismisses) do not have the same sonic signature; there is no concrete standard for this; there is nobody going between studios to certify that everybody is working with a strictly defined fixed reference. Because of this, it's hard for me to see the road to "preserving the art" as anything but fundamentally broken right from the get go.

2. The way in which people are consuming audio isn't moving the way someone like Toole might prefer. It isn't lost on me that engineers and musicians might go to the mountain than have the mountain come to them so to speak. You can choose to believe otherwise, but the second a musician decides to take a listen to their work on an iPod's buds and wants a mix adjusted accordingly...your argument is dealt a pretty serious blow. Frankly it's unfathomable to me that this isn't happening, particularly in the pop music scene.

Conclusion: As I said, buy what sounds natural to you with your material in your room. If that's an accurate speaker, fantastic. If it's not, so what? DS-21 isn't going to come knocking on your door to spell out why your speakers are inaccurate and suck (or maybe he will )

So as I said...I'll leave this be. If anyone wants to discuss this with me (try to change my mind, etc) further, PM me. I think it's an interesting discussion and it's certainly worth thinking about IMO, but I don't want to dump on this thread any further.

 

[PENG]

As long as the speaker don't suck,

I won't consider any conventional speakers that don't suck. They must be able to blow and suck..

 

[PENG]

Really, that's the logical conclusion of my reasoning. Buy what sounds best/natural to you and move on.

Pretending that true accuracy is possible without real strict standards in both the studio and the home is like pretending you can give the mass of a rock in kilograms using your hands as a scale without having any idea of what a kilogram is.

That's why I find it odd but funny in a way, when people keep making statements of facts like comments about what is the best, good, bad, worse etc., like they are the authority. I enjoy posts that offer opinions, and support their opinions with their experiences, verifiable specs, graphs and charts etc. At the end of the day even graphs and charts may only go so far, depending on how they are derived and presented. For instance, they may not have enough resolution to tell the whole story and end up being misleading (not saying that's facts, just a possibility in theory).

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

So, WARMACHINE4444, any updates??

Lol umm haven't had free time yet to maybe go out and audition more/different speakers yet. I want to hear some psb, but i'm pretty sure the sony store that the psb website says is an authorized dealer, doesn't exist here anymore!

I was going to email psb to see if there's anywhere here I can hear some, like the imagee T6. So, I'm just reading/researching speakers online that I may want to consider. But, I'm getting sidetracked cause I keep looking at bookshelf speakers, like the M1 that I may want to hear/consider that can equal or come close to the 4 towers on my contendor's list. Probably not, unless it's like the M1

 

[PENG]

I think we get too caught up in this hobby, period.

Half the time we can't even listen to our speakers because it will rattle the house and bother others.

That is very true and in my case, 'others' include those who have power over me.

 

[WARMACHINE4444]

I think we scared him off with all this talk about squiggly lines and rap music.

AHaha lol i like rap or real rap/hiphop. The squggly lines is scary to me tho! My brothers and I still have our tapes from back in the day. Techmaster PEB lol seriously though, my top 3 rap/hiphop songs are:

My Philosphy - KRS ONE/Boogie Down Productions
Know The Ledge - Eric B & Rakim
Respiration - Blackstar(Talib Kweli, Mos Def and Common)

Great production, beats, intelligent lyrics and actually "hip" teachers today actually use these songs in their poetry classes to "enlighten" the youth

 

[PENG]

Someone doesn't want some competition in the "who owns more speakers" race! XD

I appreciate you looking out, ADTG. <3

Right now I don't have to pay for school. Plus, it's super cheap..

It's the last S-1EX i know of in Cali. If i can snag it for that low, I won't let it pass me by!

Once I graduate from community college (which is going to happen very quickly considering I have only been able to get 2 classes a semester :O) and I move on to real people university...the cost is going to be immense.

One quarter at UCSB is $4,318. :O

I'm gonna have to suffer with student loans whether I buy the S-1EX/R900 or not. Might as well have 2 nice pair of speakers to help make the suffering better. XD

Whatever I end up buying (whenever I end up buying it) will be my last speaker until I lead a financially stable existence. XD NOT COUNTING DIY, of course.

Wow, seeing what you already own, I would have never guessed you are still attending college. When I was in university I thought I had one of the best sounding speakers on campus, and that was just a pair of old AR7, but it sounded as good or better than my friend's better looking KEF bookshelf, don't remember the model number but it's about the same size as my AR7. Thinking about it now I really missed those AR speakers. They are so old that I have never seen any posts about them around here. I don't expect too many people on this forum even know about them either. To me it is a shame that they are out of business as they sound really good to me, especially the clean bass that I think was really nice. ADS used to have similar design (acoustic suspension) but I think they are out of businss as well. Sorry for going off topic but I can't help reminisce a little when somone mentions college and university..

 

[monkish54]

Wow, seeing what you already own, I would have never guessed you are still attending college.

There are three of us that are still in college that own Philharmonics 2's and 3's.

When I was in university I thought I had one of the best sounding speakers on campus, and that was just a pair of old AR7, but it sounded as good or better than my friend's better looking KEF bookshelf, don't remember the model number but it's about the same size as my AR7. Thinking about it now I really missed those AR speakers. They are so old that I have never seen any posts about them around here. I don't expect too many people on this forum even know about them either. To me it is a shame that they are out of business as they sound really good to me, especially the clean bass that I think was really nice. ADS used to have similar design (acoustic suspension) but I think they are out of business as well. Sorry for going off topic but I can't help reminisce a little when someone mentions college and university..

Don't apologize. About 90% of the time fellow forum members find out i'm in college, they start with a "when I was in college" story. I love them!

Liked ADTG I want a huge collection of speakers, although not all in the same room I don't think I will ever sell my pair of Philharmonic 2.

On top of my Philharmonic 2's I have a HT build that will be finished sometime in the next millennium. Dennis Murphy has very generously agreed to do the crossover for me and has been babysitting my drivers for me.

Before I knew anything about speakers, a fellow poster helped me choose the drivers and design a cabinet. (Something I am incredibly grateful for. Thanks, buddy!!)

Right now it's called the "CSS build" because I can't think of a name. (I am not at all creative..)

It will use the following drivers:

Creative Sound - Product Details

Faital Pro 6PR150 6.5" Speakers - Faital Pro 6PR150 midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 6PR150 300 watt 6.5" has an efficiency of 97dB SPL woofer for all high quality midrange applications. Faital Pro 6PR150

AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.

 

[fuzz092888]

There are three of us that are still in college that own Philharmonics 2's and 3's.

I think you need a proper center to go with those Phil's

 

[monkish54]

I think you need a proper center to go with those Phil's

I just use my Phil's for 2 channel. My BS-22 are my video game/movie speakers. They will be replaced with my CSS build and probably used for rears. I don't feel I need a center right now. I can easily understand dialog.

I might design a center and surrounds to go along with my CSS build. The center would be more for fun than necessity though.

OTOH, I am very interested in multi-channel music. One of these days I'll design a mini tower to mate with my Phil's. That's not happening anytime soon, however.

 

[fuzz092888]

I just use my Phil's for 2 channel. My BS-22 are my video game/movie speakers. They will be replaced with my CSS build and probably used for rears. I don't feel I need a center right now. I can easily understand dialog.

I might design a center and surrounds to go along with my CSS build. The center would be more for fun than necessity though.

OTOH, I am very interested in multi-channel music. One of these days I'll design a mini tower to mate with my Phil's. That's not happening anytime soon, however.

That CSS build sounds interesting. I love the center, but I'm also running everything through them. I gotta tell you, with a matching center multi-channel music is awesome. FWIW, I wasn't having any problem hearing dialogue either with only the Phils, but the center definitely helped for my situation.

Just got the new one in today

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/915498-post62.html