Identifying Legitimately High Fidelity Loudspeakers - Part 1

[3db]

I think there has been way too much emphasys put on the problems of MTM layouts. If one uses an MTM as a left/right main, then I can certainly understand its limitations but then again, its not designed for that kind of use. Thats analogous in using an AVR to drive horrbily inefficient speakers to fill a stadium with sound.

MTM's have their place as center channels in HT systems where the average seating position is probally not much greater than 30 degrees off center. In that kind of application, the MTM is perfectly adequate for this role. As a speaker manufacturer, I would put more money on the towers and the bookshelves knowing that MTMs will function nicely in most HT settings.

Can we move past this? Its been beaten to death many times over.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I think there has been way too much emphasys put on the problems of MTM layouts. If one uses an MTM as a left/right main, then I can certainly understand its limitations but then again, its not designed for that kind of use. Thats analogous in using an AVR to drive horrbily inefficient speakers to fill a stadium with sound.

MTM's have their place as center channels in HT systems where the average seating position is probally not much greater than 30 degrees off center. In that kind of application, the MTM is perfectly adequate for this role. As a speaker manufacturer, I would put more money on the towers and the bookshelves knowing that MTMs will function nicely in most HT settings.

Can we move past this? Its been beaten to death many times over.

I agree. However, there can be an entirely different article written for this type of discussion on the tradeoffs with various driver complements (not just horizontal speakers) and non-optimal driver arrangements in which to avoid at all costs. I wouldn't categorize MTM as that.

 

[GranteedEV]

If one uses an MTM as a left/right main, then I can certainly understand its limitations but then again, its not designed for that kind of use.

What do you mean?

What do you define "that kind of use" as? A hi fidelity speaker? Or something else?

What gives center channels a free pass to have flaws you (hopefully) wouldn't tolerate in mains. Are they just effects channels?

MTM's have their place as center channels in HT systems where the average seating position is probally not much greater than 30 degrees off center. In that kind of application, the MTM is perfectly adequate for this role.

If you refuse to acknowledge reflected sound as part of what we hear...

Thats analogous in using an AVR to drive horrbily inefficient speakers to fill a stadium with sound.

No, it's analoguous to having three identical front speakers, and using 150wpc solid state amps for your L/R mains, and a 8w SET for your center, because it's "just a center".

Can we move past this? Its been beaten to death many times over.

I'm sorry if I'm contributing a "beaten to death" scenario, but I'm being told that horizontal MTMs are a perfectly acceptable solution if one sit in the listening window, but that's true only in such a room, where you sit nearfield and side wall reflections are heavily damped, or as a non high fidelity solution. I hate to keep arguing a point no one is interested in, and I really don't enjoy arguing, but the reality is we DO hear the spectral balance of reflections in the room, and <i>as long as we don't acknowledge that we hear the effects of horizontal polar response</i>, then we're no better than the subjectivist websites who think swapping out different exotic brands of capacitors in their Wilson speakers is the difference between high fidelity and not.

Anyways this is my last post on the subject, because I don't want to get on anyone's nerves. But I still disagree.

 

[cpp]

I personally appreciate the point / counterpoint. I actually have learned a lot and that's good enough for me.

 

[Adam]

I personally appreciate the point / counterpoint. I actually have learned a lot and that's good enough for me.

As do I, but my head hurts. I think that I'll take a break and listen to my apparently piece of s**t speakers.

 

[MinusTheBear]

As do I, but my head hurts. I think that I'll take a break and listen to my apparently piece of s**t speakers.

I have both a MTM and TMMMT horizontal speaker. I'm really screwed.

 

[majorloser]

Gene sure does know how to stir up the hornets nest.

 

[Adam]

Gene sure does know how to stir up the hornets nest.

Woed. Do you still have those yellow and red cards to hand out?

 

[cpp]

Adam

Originally Posted by cpp View Post
I personally appreciate the point / counterpoint. I actually have learned a lot and that's good enough for me.

Adam [As do I, but my head hurts. I think that I'll take a break and listen to my apparently piece of s**t speakers

heck I took a break and watched a good friend win a golf tournament, so I'm totally screwed.

 

[gene]

What is happening here is a lot of theory some valid and some missaplied is being spewed here with little to no real world experience. I enjoy theory but it has to be proven in the real world. I've measured and reviewed 100s of speakers and center channels. I've heard great and bad designs for all driver topologies. Despite the negativity towards MTM's they ARE a valid design and are NOT any more cost compromised than any other type of design. Some of the best centers I've heard have been MTM's (one in particular had 4 6" woofers and 1 1" tweeter; another had a WTWTWTW). I never thought the last example would work, but I was stunned by its fidelity on and off axis in the theater I demoed it in. The topology setup a complex interference pattern that converged beautifully after 6 ft and the design had effortless dynamics and it just poured sound into the room. That particular setup won best sound at CEDIA several years back from many publications and they were up against some very elaborate rooms.

The measurements I showed in the Alternative Perspective article shows such an example with excellent off axis response up to 30 degrees for a well engineered MTM.

One has to remember that measurements don't show everything we hear when it comes to loudspeakers. How the speaker play in the room is what is often very difficult to capture in a few steadystate measurements. Most measurements are done at too low level to show misbehavior of the designs.

We have two articles on this site showing the pros and cons of MTM's vs other designs. This topic has been covered to death and until either a knowledgeable designer with the ability to measure and setup controlled tests to prove otherwise, I stand by the articles and my own experiences that I have accumulated successfully running this site for 11+ years.

 

[gene]

Don't get me wrong, I think a horizontal center is A-OK.

But we should still hold them to the same measurable standards you'd hold main speakers (smooth horizontal polar response out to 60 degrees especially from the shroeder frequency up to around 8khz), flat frequency response, low IMD/THD/cone breakup/horn honk at high drive levels, low cabinet resonance, proper relative phase on axis between drivers, etc)

http://p.gzhls.at/185609.jpg
http://media.gdgt.com/img/product/32/p7f/verus-grand-center-channel-2lq6-460.jpg
http://www.hometheater.com/images/revel2.jpg?1282071720
http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2011/01/31/1346384/AperionVerusForteCenterBlack.jpg
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/file?id=1032624


Heck, how about this CBT line array center channel?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=162694&d=1262686480

The frequency response, at 70 degrees off axis, does not have a 20db relative null in the midrange:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=162690&d=1262683339

Compare the above, to a typical horizontal MTM,. and note specifically the tweeter's wide directivity coming into play:

But if Dr. Floyd Toole says that MTM centers are A-OK too, then who am I to argue with him? But then, Harman only has a few speakers I can think of, which ostensibly could be called an MTM, and all of them are bottom-of-the-line budget offerings.

When you get to a level up from that, you've got the Revel C12:

and JBL LC2

As soon as you get even one level up, Harman no longer uses MTM center speakers. So I contend that, a horizontal MTM center, is a budget constrained choice, and not indicative of something we're going to call :truly: high fidelity.

If we're going to open up speakers and complain about stamped baskets and electrolytic caps, I don't think i'm wrong when I say that polar response is a lot more significant in what we hear than a stamped basket.

Uggg, I heard that entire JBL setup at EHX 2 years ago. I was not impressed. The treble was hot and the speakers sounded quite lifeless. But, if you look at the quality of the drivers used in that product, its no surprise. I used to be a big fan of JBL consumer but luckily their pro line is still top notch.

 

[GranteedEV]

Uggg, I heard that entire JBL setup at EHX 2 years ago. I was not impressed. The treble was hot and the speakers sounded quite lifeless. But, if you look at the quality of the drivers used in that product, its no surprise. I used to be a big fan of JBL consumer but luckily their pro line is still top notch.

I have never heard any of the JBL Home speakers. I've been a bit skeptical about them, but I wouldn't have thought they sounded that as bad as you describe.

THe LSR 2325s I heard at a guitar shop, however were very nice for the price they were asking. I've been thinking of picking up a pair. If only there was a tower version

 

[rushwj]

Thanks gene. I love articles like this. Well done

 

[GranteedEV]

Reeeaaal mature...

Sorry guys, I retract any statement whatsoever I made in this entire thread. I have no real world practical first hand knowledge with ANY MTM loudspeaker in the world, most certainly not anything remotely designed by a good company. My EMP e5Ci MTM Center, is clearly not a timbral dud, because Shane Rich designed it after all, and I can't wait to upgrade it to the e55Ci WMTMW center, that'll just be awesome, after all, it's more dynamic. Sorry for just spitting out theory. You do need to test 100s of speakers to have a valid opinion. And doppler distortion in a coaxial speaker, unlike polar response, is not just a theory; it's proven in all designs and executions, and thus high power coaxials are not even worthy of consideration.

In light of this revelation, I'm going to order some new cables, to hear practically what high end cables sound like rather than trust silly theory. I'm thinking of Nordost, but if anyone has any suggestions i am all ears.

 

[highfigh]

Thats exactly it Gene. The only people who benefit from outsourcing are the corporate execs with their performance bonuses and outlandish salaries while the middle class in both the US and Canada is shrinking. The US was born to escape a class based society but corporate America thru nothing but their own greed is bringing back the classes.

I think the glut of MBAs that began in the early-mid 1980s is a big part of the problem. The emphasis on scrounging for every little bit of cost savings without giving a rat's *** about who's losing their job is why I hope to never work for a large corporation or any company that's top-heavy with management.

How much is enough?

 

[3db]

Sorry guys, I retract any statement whatsoever I made in this entire thread. I have no real world practical first hand knowledge with ANY MTM loudspeaker in the world, most certainly not anything remotely designed by a good company. My EMP e5Ci MTM Center, is clearly not a timbral dud, because Shane Rich designed it after all, and I can't wait to upgrade it to the e55Ci WMTMW center, that'll just be awesome, after all, it's more dynamic. Sorry for just spitting out theory. You do need to test 100s of speakers to have a valid opinion. And doppler distortion in a coaxial speaker, unlike polar response, is not just a theory; it's proven in all designs and executions, and thus high power coaxials are not even worthy of consideration.

In light of this revelation, I'm going to order some new cables, to hear practically what high end cables sound like rather than trust silly theory. I'm thinking of Nordost, but if anyone has any suggestions i am all ears.

Don't forget your cable lifters.

Seriously Grant.. You've made some valid points but its coming across like a crusade against the design.

I have an Image 8C center which I sit 12 feet away from. It sits above my display and sit backs about 18" from the display. My of axes viewing is at worst 15%. Its a narrow room *shrugs*. But I can tell you that it sounds great. I dont have any problems whats so ever with dialogue. The fidelity also comes across in spades. Even the most difficult to understand announcers come out clear and intelligable. For the role that I use it for, it does a dam fine job. However I won't by another pair and use them to replace my left/right towers.

If I were a speaker designer, I would spend most of my research on towers, and bookshelves to help me survive in a very competitive market. As a matter of fact, I chose my PSBs on the tower's sonic's ability for two channel listening, not the center channel's ability to sound top notch for HT purpose. That it does so good was just an added bonus. Even if its performance was mediocre, I still would have went with the PSB towers.

One more point I want to make here is ....given a limited research budget for any speaker company, left/right whether towers or bookshelves are sold in pairs and are the bulk of a speaker companie's sale. Would you with limited research bucks, pour your money into something that you know sells in less quantities? Think about this last statement. Every speaker manufacturer who builds speakers for HT faces this delema.

If you want to kick up a stink, start looking at soundbars or those skinny plastic towers that are no bigger than your wrist with upteem dosezn driver speakers housed in 4 enclosures with bandpass sub which sounds more like bad gas than bass.

 

[Adam]

In light of this revelation, I'm going to order some new cables, to hear practically what high end cables sound like rather than trust silly theory.

You crack me up, man.

Seriously, though, don't judge those cables right away. It can take a couple hundred hours for them to break in. You've got to get all the electrons aligned properly.

 

[gene]

I have never heard any of the JBL Home speakers. I've been a bit skeptical about them, but I wouldn't have thought they sounded that as bad as you describe.

They didn't sound "bad" but not as good as I expected given all the Harman theory. Seems like their theory is best applied to JBL pro and Revel however.

Sorry guys, I retract any statement whatsoever I made in this entire thread. I have no real world practical first hand knowledge with ANY MTM loudspeaker in the world, most certainly not anything remotely designed by a good company. My EMP e5Ci MTM Center, is clearly not a timbral dud, because Shane Rich designed it after all, and I can't wait to upgrade it to the e55Ci WMTMW center, that'll just be awesome, after all, it's more dynamic. Sorry for just spitting out theory. You do need to test 100s of speakers to have a valid opinion. And doppler distortion in a coaxial speaker, unlike polar response, is not just a theory; it's proven in all designs and executions, and thus high power coaxials are not even worthy of consideration.

The E5ci center is certainly not the pinnacle of center channel design nor does EMP claim it to be. Yes you do need to test and measure speakers to validate claims some of which that you make are baseless in a real room. Much of the issues you mention become a wash in a real room with real reflections. The listening seats in any good theater room are rarely ever more than 20-30 degrees off axis. The center channel is located in the middle of the room where the importance of sidewall reflections aren't as significant as a front left/right speakers that are located a few feet from sidewalls. These are some of the reasons why MTMs can still work as center channels with good success. It doesn't mean other designs can work equally good or better depending on the situation.

In light of this revelation, I'm going to order some new cables, to hear practically what high end cables sound like rather than trust silly theory. I'm thinking of Nordost, but if anyone has any suggestions i am all ears.

you should invest in the GLOB, it deals with IBS syndrome which you seems right up your alley.

Cables are a great example where I spent several years taking hundreds of measurements and actually verified some of the cable theories have "partial" truth (ie. Skin effect) but even those measurable affects are a wash when dealing with audio frequencies and other more direct deleterious effects to sound quality (ie. the room, speaker distortion, etc).

 

[cpp]

GLOB

oh yes the world needs these and more weird articles

Gene I think you need to sign up for this;

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Of course we are taking about "Irritable bowel syndrome"

Also my wife likes the sound in my CC speaker and that's all that matters.

 

[TLS Guy]

Speaker manufacturers are faced with big problems. I think most just throw in the towel and become cynical, assuming largely correctly there is a market for just about any speaker, no matter how awful. Even the worst speakers seem to have their fan boys.

Lets face it most speakers are in the awful category, and awful in different ways.

Part of the problem is far too many speaker manufacturers, with almost none having the economy of scale.

Making good consistent drivers costs money. The ATC mid already mentioned, is an awesome very potent unit. However production is relatively low and each unit costly. Just a pair is worth far more than many here want to pay for a whole set. However if these were produced in high numbers with good quality control, then many more music lovers could benefit from this quite extraordinary driver.

Carting speakers all over the world from China seems highly inefficient and wasteful, given their size and weight. It is evidence that the world economy is way out of kilter more than anything else.

The argument that makes my case more than any thing else for the poor regard I hold for most speaker manufacturers, is lack of consistency not only among brands, but within the range of the manufacturers themselves! To me nothing illustrates their absolute intellectual bankruptcy better than that.

If you listen to my speakers, no matter what the design or driver selection, you will hear a highly consistent tonal balance, and presentation. It does not matter if I'm up or downstairs, at our Eagan town home or listening to one of my children's sets, I'm in no doubt as to the overall presentation I will get.

If I can do that, then I really don't think when I'm at a dealer switching between speakers of the same manufacturer, the sound I hear should be all over the map.

Frankly there should by now be no gross differences between brands, but there is.

We would not accept this any other part of the audio chain and we should not tolerate it in loudspeakers.

So I'm won't to ask the salesman: "Which of the speakers on offer have the correct sound?" Sadly, the answer is usually none of the above.

As far as Chinese manufacturing is concerned, I find it a mixed bag. Some products from China have superb fit and finish. However, overall, I find Chinese manufacturing frustrating and a continual irritant.

They now own Quad. Since owning Quad there has been zero innovation. This is a far cry from the days of old.

Their steel is of a highly inconsistent quality, and downright dangerous. The strength marking on Chinese bolts means nothing and is fraudulent.

There plumbing parts let you in for a soaking, as I can personally testify. They do not know the formula for admiralty grade brass and their copper content in the brass is all over the map.

My sweep who builds chimneys, says he can't find large hose clamps built anywhere but chine any more and the screws strip right away. This is consistent with what I have found from Chinese nuts and bolts. I go to great length in my shop to avoid Chinese junk.

I have to agree with our local artisans, that it would be a good thing if the world economy does really blow up, and no one can trade with any body again. It would be a good thing to be forced to build good American gear again, like we used to.

Yes, I own some really good old American gear, and when you look at the workmanship and design compared to what goes on now, it literally makes me weep.