I was an expert witness in an audio trial....

[Bucknekked]

"I was an expert witness in the Quincy Jones vs the Estate of Michael Jackson trial". How's that for an opening line? I wanted to know more as soon as I saw the article description. As it turns out, it's a pretty dang interesting story and it involves one of the AH's favorite topics: compressed remasters of original material. In this case, the ruination of the original 1987 Michael Jackson release of "Bad" with compressed and crappy mastering in new "remastered releases".

I could care less about 95% of MJ's material, but, the subject of the article and the accompanying video made me take notice. Just breeze the article but make 19 minutes for the video. The video is truly interesting stuff.

ARTICLE IN ANALOG PLANET (READ ME FIRST)

VIDEO BY MICHAEL FREMER (19 Minutes : worth every minute)

This is a textbook case (pun intended) of what many AH members have argued for years. Many re-masters of old material are poor imitations and in many cases much worse listening than the originals. The jury award in this case was just under $10 million bucks. Apparently, this remaster really sucked.

 

[MrBoat]

That was awesome. All of the people who do this to recordings should be banned from the industry as well.

 

[Bucknekked]

That was awesome. All of the people who do this to recordings should be banned from the industry as well.

MrBoat
What will probably will happen is they will get a promotion, take more original recordings and "modernize them" or "remaster " them and make bank on unsuspecting buyers.

Until I watched his video I wasn't really sure about the idea of new remasters being of poor quality. I had my suspicions and certainly plenty of anecdotal evidence. What makes this situation so clear and compelling is they actually setup a sound system in front of a jury and played the original verses the remaster. Even a jury of young females could hear the difference. That's quite a statement for both remasters and for the entire idea of great audio systems.

 

[MrBoat]

,

MrBoat
What will probably will happen is they will get a promotion, take more original recordings and "modernize them" or "remaster " them and make bank on unsuspecting buyers.

Until I watched his video I wasn't really sure about the idea of new remasters being of poor quality. I had my suspicions and certainly plenty of anecdotal evidence. What makes this situation so clear and compelling is they actually setup a sound system in front of a jury and played the original verses the remaster. Even a jury of young females could hear the difference. That's quite a statement for both remasters and for the entire idea of great audio systems.

I started noticing it in the beginning days of CD with some analog to digital conversions. I have yet to find a remaster I have liked better than the original. Whenever I see such a claim on an album title, I know it's going to pretty much suck comparatively. The other association that is cringe-worthy is, "HD."

I was pretty sure of the decline in quality, but you can't really say anything about it. Because there will be some theorist that will tell you how it is better scientifically.

 

[Bucknekked]

,

I started noticing it in the beginning days of CD with some analog to digital conversions. I have yet to find a remaster I have liked better than the original. Whenever I see such a claim on an album title, I know it's going to pretty much suck comparatively. The other association that is cringe-worthy is, "HD."

I was pretty sure of the decline in quality, but you can't really say anything about it. Because there will be some theorist that will tell you how it is better scientifically.

if there is one thing I took from the video and the court case it was "here is a specific example of a specific recording that started out great and was degraded enough the artist could sue over it". We talk in generalities all the time about things getting worse, particularly in remastered works. But, its tough to point to a specific situation.

Here is a situation spelled out specifically. Not many artists have Quincy Jones and a bevvy of recording engineers of high caliber do their original recording. This one did. Also, Quincy Jones owned the rights to any remixes or changes or re-issues to be a part of that or have the ability to say "no". Not many artists have that either. In this case, Quincy Jones learned of the remastering and found it to be so bad it affected his professional reputation. So he sued MJ's estate for doing such a shitty job. He won the argument in court by having the jury listen to the mess they made of his original recordings. Not many artists have that either.

So this is one we can put in our back pockets as a specific instance where you can hear the difference. I plan on getting an original Bad CD so I can do my own listening test. Just haven't done it yet. I have the original Bad CD stock number from Epic. You can google it.

Just one of those things that we on the AH would find interesting that the rest of the world might think is just no big deal at all.....

 

[lovinthehd]

So without having to watch the little Fremer weasel, just how fair was the presentation to the jury? What was the protocol? Is there access to the actual files used for independent judgment?

 

[Bucknekked]

So without having to watch the little Fremer weasel, just how fair was the presentation to the jury? What was the protocol? Is there access to the actual files used for independent judgment?

I don't know much about Mr Fremer, but in the video he's pretty good. Its actually worth the time to watch it. I have no experience with him prior to that video. I wouldn't know the guy from Adam.

As far as fairness is concerned : yes. During the discovery depositions, the defense had all the files that were going to be used. They also had every word Mr Fremer would say taken down in his deposition before the trial. At trial he not only played the original and the crushed stuff but he showed the jury graphs of them both as well. The defense had all that from the deposition so they knew exactly what he was going to show. He wasn't allowed to say or do anything at trial he didn't say or do during the pretrial depositions.

Add to that the folks that set up the stereo in the courtroom did so without Mr Fremer and he never saw the stereo in use, the computer that played the files, or even the courtroom prior to walking in and testifying.
His experience with the sound system in the courtroom was the same as the defense: he didn't see it ahead of time or participate in its setup.

Go ahead and risk investing 19 minutes to watch the video. Its a pretty good story even if you have some experience with Mr Fremer and don't care for him. It will give you a pretty good picture of how they did it.

 

[Bucknekked]

So without having to watch the little Fremer weasel, just how fair was the presentation to the jury? What was the protocol? Is there access to the actual files used for independent judgment?

one more thought lovinthehd,
Given the information in the article and video, you could do your own independent evaluation.
You don't need to accept the court case at face value, you too can do your own A B test.
I plan on doing it, as soon as my original release Epic 40600 CD shows up.
The original MJ Bad release was on Epic in 1987 and is on the way. Cost me $9.96 on Ebay.

There are plenty of new crappy releases to compare it to.

I am not an MJ fan, but I can appreciate some of his stuff is pretty good. It was the original master verses the compressed remaster that caught my eye. The material, well, I'll tell you how much I like it when I hear it

 

[MrBoat]

one more thought lovinthehd,
Given the information in the article and video, you could do your own independent evaluation.
You don't need to accept the court case at face value, you too can do your own A B test.
I plan on doing it, as soon as my original release Epic 40600 CD shows up.
The original MJ Bad release was on Epic in 1987 and is on the way. Cost me $9.96 on Ebay.

There are plenty of new crappy releases to compare it to.

I am not an MJ fan, but I can appreciate some of his stuff is pretty good. It was the original master verses the compressed remaster that caught my eye. The material, well, I'll tell you how much I like it when I hear it

You have to admit, for a second career as a solo act, MJ was pretty brilliant as well as unique. I was never really a fan either but the skills are there. Too bad he weirded out so, or whatever the aftereffects of such an upbringing/life style brought.

 

[Bucknekked]

You have to admit, for a second career as a solo act, MJ was pretty brilliant as well as unique. I was never really a fan either but the skills are there. Too bad he weirded out so, or whatever the aftereffects of such an upbringing/life style brought.

I think that's the primary reason I haven't yet become an MJ fan. Its the weirded out stuff.
Never say never, so someday I may catch the MJ wave. He did sell a begillion records so he can't be all "bad". (pun intended).

What I remember most while growing up was that MJ spent a cool $1million bucks to make the Thriller video. In my youth and stupidity, I couldn't image how anyone could spend $1 million bucks on a video.
I was wrong of course. Thriller went on to make so much bank I'm not sure even today its not still making money. He could perform like few others. He had more talent in his pinky than I do in my whole body.
Remember the moonwalk? He inspired a generation of dancers and choreographers.

But, he did get weirded out.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Now that Quincy Jones has that cool $9.4 million he can afford to "re-master the re-master"

 

[Bucknekked]

You have to admit, for a second career as a solo act, MJ was pretty brilliant as well as unique. I was never really a fan either but the skills are there. Too bad he weirded out so, or whatever the aftereffects of such an upbringing/life style brought.

MrBoat (and anyone else reading this thread)

I got my official MJ Bad CD from 1987 (Ek40600 from 1987) today from ebay. I shelled out $10 bucks or so to get my very own "original release" so I could do my own test against the compressed copies of later years. The court case was specific: Casey Jones was suing because the sound on the remasters was so bad it affected his professional reputation (his name is all over the production notes) AND they did the remaster without his permission.

I took my CD ripped it in and put it in my library like everything else. I then went and grabbed a 320KBPS copy from Spotify for one of the 2012 copies of the "Bad" song for my A B test. I wasn't going to shell out another $10 to $15 bucks for the crappy condensed CD. A Spotify rip of a 2012 version should do the trick.

MAN AM I DISAPPOINTED. I AM SORELY DISAPPOINTED.
I did my A B tests and I couldn't realistically tell the difference between the two versions of the "BAD" song.
I could say I preferred the CD version that I bought. But, going back n forth, I would readily acknowledge that if someone was doing it blind, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I tried several other Spotify vintages of the song. Same difference. No difference to my ears.

I feel like either I am a crappy judge of musical quality, OR, this was a tempest in a teapot in the courtroom.
Either way, I'm disappointed. I was all set for a cool experience. Didn't have one.
I will put forth a challenge/opportunity in a new post. If you make your posts too long, nobody reads them

 

[Bucknekked]

Having had the experience of not being able to tell the difference between a genuine 1987 CD from MJ and a compressed remaster, I want to offer the challenge to anyone else on the AH who wants to try.

I will make my genuine EK40600 MJ BAD CD available to anyone who agrees to try their own version of an AB test on their own equipment. You'd have to come up with your own comparison version of BAD, but, they are all over creation from Spotify to buying the song for $1 on Amazon.

Send me a PM with your name and mailing address. I will pay to ship you the CD if you agree to try an AB test and put your experience here in the thread. That's it. The only other string would be if a bunch of folks sign up, if you wouldn't mind sending it on to the next person who wants to try. We will see how that goes.

Maybe nobody gives a poop and nobody will sign up. Dunno.

Here's your chance to practice with your own ears and system on a claim that netted Quincy Jones nearly $10 million bucks: the origina CD sounded $10 million bucks better than the remasters.

You prove it for yourself if you like.

 

[2channel lover]

You have to admit, for a second career as a solo act, MJ was pretty brilliant as well as unique. I was never really a fan either but the skills are there. Too bad he weirded out so, or whatever the aftereffects of such an upbringing/life style brought.

Interesting take on the remastering...I guess it largely depends on who is doing its...I have couple of remasters that sound good on my system but I don't have the original to compare.

IMO...Mj was a one of a kind artist...probably (actually no question) he was better live than his studio work.

I am a fan..but I have exactly 2 of his albums...Bad & Thriller but haven't played either in years.

When he was on top you heard it so often on the radio there wasn't much need to buy it.

 

[<eargiant]

Having had the experience of not being able to tell the difference between a genuine 1987 CD from MJ and a compressed remaster, I want to offer the challenge to anyone else on the AH who wants to try.

I will make my genuine EK40600 MJ BAD CD available to anyone who agrees to try their own version of an AB test on their own equipment. You'd have to come up with your own comparison version of BAD, but, they are all over creation from Spotify to buying the song for $1 on Amazon.

Send me a PM with your name and mailing address. I will pay to ship you the CD if you agree to try an AB test and put your experience here in the thread. That's it. The only other string would be if a bunch of folks sign up, if you wouldn't mind sending it on to the next person who wants to try. We will see how that goes.

Maybe nobody gives a poop and nobody will sign up. Dunno.

Here's your chance to practice with your own ears and system on a claim that netted Quincy Jones nearly $10 million bucks: the origina CD sounded $10 million bucks better than the remasters.

You prove it for yourself if you like.

I'm with you!

I had seen Mikey's video about the court case before this thread and I wanted to do the same thing and locate an original digital version download to compare. I couldn't find any so the next option was to find a CD like you did but I never got around to it. I eventually will though, seems like a fun exercise and I'm curious too. Maybe I'll just knock on Fremer's door and ask for a demo, he lives a stone's throw away. Think he'll let me in?

A couple of points and they are not directed at you, just general observations:

1) While Fremer & Jones are older they have trained ears. They know what to listen for.

2) The Jury was on the younger side and although they had no specialized audio experience their hearing was probably intact up to a high kHz range.

3) Fremer instructed/educated the jury as to what to listen for.

4) While Fremer did not see how the gear was set-up until the trial, he was the one who contacted experienced audio business associates to set-up the gear. I'm sure he explained what he was tasked to demonstrate. As he would have expected (and probably requested), the equipment provided was very capable high end gear. He knew they weren't going to set up a $200 AVR with Infinity Primus speakers. I'm one of those that believes that sometimes gear like what was used in the courtroom demo does make an audible difference in resolution and presentation.

P.S. A little trivia, the audio engineer on Thriller (also produced by Quincy Jones) was Bruce Swedien and he used his beloved JBL 4310 speakers. I used to own a pair and actually played Thiller on them. Talk about hearing exactly what the engineer heard! Not the most neutral speaker but Bruce was familiar with them and knew how to work them.

 

[MrBoat]

MrBoat (and anyone else reading this thread)

I got my official MJ Bad CD from 1987 (Ek40600 from 1987) today from ebay. I shelled out $10 bucks or so to get my very own "original release" so I could do my own test against the compressed copies of later years. The court case was specific: Casey Jones was suing because the sound on the remasters was so bad it affected his professional reputation (his name is all over the production notes) AND they did the remaster without his permission.

I took my CD ripped it in and put it in my library like everything else. I then went and grabbed a 320KBPS copy from Spotify for one of the 2012 copies of the "Bad" song for my A B test. I wasn't going to shell out another $10 to $15 bucks for the crappy condensed CD. A Spotify rip of a 2012 version should do the trick.

MAN AM I DISAPPOINTED. I AM SORELY DISAPPOINTED.
I did my A B tests and I couldn't realistically tell the difference between the two versions of the "BAD" song.
I could say I preferred the CD version that I bought. But, going back n forth, I would readily acknowledge that if someone was doing it blind, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I tried several other Spotify vintages of the song. Same difference. No difference to my ears.

I feel like either I am a crappy judge of musical quality, OR, this was a tempest in a teapot in the courtroom.
Either way, I'm disappointed. I was all set for a cool experience. Didn't have one.
I will put forth a challenge/opportunity in a new post. If you make your posts too long, nobody reads them

How can you know it's an original release? I have not looked into it or how to source such things.

Honestly, I never really expected the MJ albums to be anywhere near audiophile, or even high quality recordings. I mean, during that time, what would have been his audio quality competition? Run DMC, Cindy Lauper, B-52's or Men With Hats and the hair bands?

That period was when I lost interest in music and fell back on the classics for at least a decade, other than SRV, Satriani and Vai, perhaps. The only time I saw/heard MJ was on a TV. I bought a stereo shortly after that but all of that Motown/MTV stuff was well removed by then.

 

[Bucknekked]

How can you know it's an original release? I have not looked into it or how to source such things.

Honestly, I never really expected the MJ albums to be anywhere near audiophile, or even high quality recordings. .

MrBoat
I did not know when I started this thread what would constitute a CD/Vinyl that was the real deal with the original stuff on it. As luck would have it, the internet and Google will answer just about any question with just a few clicks of a mouse. As it turns out, lots of people on other audio forums had already argued this out and came to the conclusion that if you could lay your hands on a CD from EPIC, number EK40600, from 1987, you'd have a CD that was the real deal. There may be others as well, but, the consensus opinion was this one was the real deal for sure.

I plugged that in to EBAY, and presto chango, there are a bunch of folks selling that very CD. The packaging looks all original and it looks suitably "funky" for something 30 years old (although it looks pretty good).

I'm with you on the MJ music catalog. I don't think I was his target market. Some of his stuff is pretty good and he himself of course was one very talented entertainer. But, not my typical listening choice. I didn't own an MJ song until I was building my lossless library and I wanted a copy of Billie Jean and Thriller on a whim.

Its funny you mention SRV , Steve Vai and Satriani. On my last trip to the CD store I picked up what some folks think is an excellent example of wide dynamic range recording in SRV's original Texas Flood CD. In the mood for guitars, I picked up my very first Steve Vai CD (Passion and Warfare). Having listened to my new CD's, I was in the mood for big guitars so i drug out my Joe Satriani Surfing with the Alien and some of his live stuff. I love that Surfin' with the Alien. tune.

I have to make another trip to get me some Walter Trout. He sounded very good.

 

[Bucknekked]

A couple of points and they are not directed at you, just general observations:

1) While Fremer & Jones are older they have trained ears. They know what to listen for.

2) The Jury was on the younger side and although they had no specialized audio experience their hearing was probably intact up to a high kHz range.

3) Fremer instructed/educated the jury as to what to listen for.

eargiant:
I liked your comments and found them all to apply to me as well as a wider audience.
That's part of why I found it disappointing: those things apply to me.
I feel educated and yet I still couldn't hear any difference. I am in the same age ballpark as Fremer, yet......

I would say this about educated ears: In Floyd Tooles book he makes it very clear that educated or no, hearing declines with age. He himself was an astute and trained listener. He tested himself for his book and learned that father time beats us all, no one is excluded. He makes a clear statement that he is no longer actively doing audio tests: father time has affected him too.

Like me, he still enjoys all of his audio hobby same as before. But now he has to step aside from audio tests that require a critical ear. I was hoping this MJ thing was as obvious as he made it out to be in his video. That's why I'd like to send my MJ CD to someone else to try it out and get a 2nd opinion. The offer still stands. Its a no charge offer.

 

[<eargiant]

eargiant:
I liked your comments and found them all to apply to me as well as a wider audience.
That's part of why I found it disappointing: those things apply to me.
I feel educated and yet I still couldn't hear any difference. I am in the same age ballpark as Fremer, yet......

I would say this about educated ears: In Floyd Tooles book he makes it very clear that educated or no, hearing declines with age. He himself was an astute and trained listener. He tested himself for his book and learned that father time beats us all, no one is excluded. He makes a clear statement that he is no longer actively doing audio tests: father time has affected him too.

Like me, he still enjoys all of his audio hobby same as before. But now he has to step aside from audio tests that require a critical ear. I was hoping this MJ thing was as obvious as he made it out to be in his video. That's why I'd like to send my MJ CD to someone else to try it out and get a 2nd opinion. The offer still stands. Its a no charge offer.

Two questions, was there a volume difference between the two versions and what did you use to rip the 1987 CD?

Give the 2 versions you have another listen to see if you can hears these differences. At least you'll know for sure you have the original.

From Discogs: Re-issues of Bad feature a number of changes when compared to the original 1987 release:

"Bad" – The original mix was replaced with the 7" Single Mix. The most notable difference is the lack of horns in all the choruses except for the last two. Horns are also missing from the second and third pre-choruses. The rhythm guitar during the choruses is also turned up along with the hi hats.

"The Way You Make Me Feel" – The full length remix used for the single with louder vocals and ad libs added to the end replaced the original album mix.

"I Just Can't Stop Loving You" omits Michael Jackson's spoken intro.

"Dirty Diana" is replaced with the single edit of the song.

"Smooth Criminal" went through two changes on the album. It was remixed to make the kick drum heavier and the bass synth fatter. The quick-sequenced synclavier behind the bass has been rendered mono as well. The first version of this mix left the breathing intact, but was later removed after some time.

Keep us posted with the results.

 

[Bucknekked]

Two questions, was there a volume difference between the two versions and what did you use to rip the 1987 CD?

Volume was one of the first things I thought of. The volume seems to be the same on both. If there is a difference, I couldn't tell you which is which. They match as well as any two versions of a song/CD that I have tried this with. Volume would defintely skew the result.

From Discogs: Re-issues of Bad feature a number of changes when compared to the original 1987 release:

"Bad" – The original mix was replaced with the 7" Single Mix. The most notable difference is the lack of horns in all the choruses except for the last two. Horns are also missing from the second and third pre-choruses. The rhythm guitar during the choruses is also turned up along with the hi hats.

The horns are where they should be. Easy to hear.

"I Just Can't Stop Loving You" omits Michael Jackson's spoken intro.
The spoken word intro is there. I can see why someone would want to take it out. For a song most often played on the radio, that intro would suck. But its there


I am confident I have an original CD with the stuff on it just based on the Epic Catalog number.
What I am not as sure of is what crap I may be comparing it to. I can go and listen for those same items sometime this weekend and see if they are missing or present.