I want to upgrade to Martin Logan 60XT

C

chrysler82000

Junior Audioholic
Look at canton speakers, accessories for less has great deals. For under $3000 you can get beautiful vento 896 and 866.2 center. All new too, it’s what I ended up with. I spent over a year trying really everything that sold for under 10k for front 3. The 896 vento out class the 60xt or 60xti in every way. They also look way better too doing it. But it’s not really fair those 896 retailed for $6400 a pair. Just make sure you have room for the center speaker, it’s a big boy and a nice 3 way design.
Huh, didn't know the Germans made speakers. 61% off right now. I'll be looking into these. Thx
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
I suspect a big part of your comments about muddied sound is that you have your mains jammed hard into the corners with little room between them and the front and side walls. To some, Corner Loading is desirable, but in the wrong room the acoustic effect can be exactly as you described.
Though you didn’t share the info about your crossovers, it is generally recommended to set your speakers to small (yes, even tour towers), and set the crossovers for those to 80. Set your center and all other speakers a little higher still. I find that higher Crossovers relieve the speaker of straining too much down low which requires significantly more energy. With a higher XO (crossover), the mids and highs should clear up a little: in my system, I experienced slightly cleaner and more well defined sound.
Another tip that may help down low with the muddiness is to set your subwoofer to LFE, not LFE + mains.

It was difficult to read clearly the information shown on your TV screen. Did you run Audyssey? If you did, it is common for it to set subs to different distances. This is important because of the DSP in the subwoofer. The DSP creates a delay which Audyssey will account for in setting the Subwoofer distance “further away” than it physically measures.
Even if you don’t want to keep Audyssey on, I highly recommend using it to set your levels and distances (delay).

Lastly, do you use the Audyssey App? It sucks to have to spend the $20 bucks, but it will do some cool things for you. Most importantly, it will allow you to set Audyssey to only work in the most important lower frequencies.
There is a point below 200 and 300 Hz in all rooms where the room acts in a resonant manner. You can use the app to limit Audyssey to work below that threshold only and to not correct your room above that frequency.
If you care to learn more about the phenomenon I’m discussing, research Schroeder Frequency.
Regardless of that, using Audyssey to correct for your lower frequencies is something many of us have employed quite successfully in our own systems.

Hope some of this may help!
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Chief
For the amount of subwoofage you are already sporting, you don't need huge bass-heavy towers. Speakers that can dip into the mid or low 30Hz range serve you no good when they're hi-passed at 80Hz. All my setups are 2.0 so bass extension is more of a concern to someone like me.

It would be interesting if someone auditioned several tower speakers set at 80Hz hi-pass (but no sub running) instead of full range, and then offered their insights based on the bandwidth they'd actually be using in their homes.
 
M

Movie2099

Junior Audioholic
I'm definetly going to be looking for his next demo/comparison 60XTi vs the RF7III. Not sure how myou know that, but I'll be looking for it. I woulda never bought the pb3k had it not been his video, 2 15" klipsch versus pb3k. That day I watched this video I nearly pulled the trigger on a second R112SW. So glad I didn't. I couldn't be happier with the pb3k, so happy, 3 months later I bought a second one. Of course I was very interested in his pb3k versus Monolith 15" and I thought I mighta made a mistake. But after 5 months, I really like the svs app and play around all the time. And the Monolith has had some problems with there 1000 watt amp. I do believe this is why they are completely out of stock. You can't find one right now. And givin my room size the Monolith would just be too much.
Did you see Youthman's review of the Martin Logans 60XTi's? They look like very nice speakers.
 
C

chrysler82000

Junior Audioholic
I suspect a big part of your comments about muddied sound is that you have your mains jammed hard into the corners with little room between them and the front and side walls. To some, Corner Loading is desirable, but in the wrong room the acoustic effect can be exactly as you described.
Though you didn’t share the info about your crossovers, it is generally recommended to set your speakers to small (yes, even tour towers), and set the crossovers for those to 80. Set your center and all other speakers a little higher still. I find that higher Crossovers relieve the speaker of straining too much down low which requires significantly more energy. With a higher XO (crossover), the mids and highs should clear up a little: in my system, I experienced slightly cleaner and more well defined sound.
Another tip that may help down low with the muddiness is to set your subwoofer to LFE, not LFE + mains.

It was difficult to read clearly the information shown on your TV screen. Did you run Audyssey? If you did, it is common for it to set subs to different distances. This is important because of the DSP in the subwoofer. The DSP creates a delay which Audyssey will account for in setting the Subwoofer distance “further away” than it physically measures.
Even if you don’t want to keep Audyssey on, I highly recommend using it to set your levels and distances (delay).

Lastly, do you use the Audyssey App? It sucks to have to spend the $20 bucks, but it will do some cool things for you. Most importantly, it will allow you to set Audyssey to only work in the most important lower frequencies.
There is a point below 200 and 300 Hz in all rooms where the room acts in a resonant manner. You can use the app to limit Audyssey to work below that threshold only and to not correct your room above that frequency.
If you care to learn more about the phenomenon I’m discussing, research Schroeder Frequency.
Regardless of that, using Audyssey to correct for your lower frequencies is something many of us have employed quite successfully in our own systems.

Hope some of this may help!
Thanks. Very helpful. And you were right on with setting the 8000's to small. In multi channel it was set to small, but 2 channel playback it was set to large. I fixed that. I've been back and forth with setting crossover to 60 and 80 with all 2 tower and center. I find I get better dialogue when the center is set to 60. And then in the crown xls1002, the frequency levels were scewed. One channel was set to 40??? Yikes. and the other was at 80. So now they are both at 80. Since I have dual svs pb3k subs I do have it set at LFE.

I do run Audyssey and save that as #1 on the Marantz. Then I play around from there, find what I like and save to #2. Stereo mode was always set to #4 and I left #3 for anything out of the ordinary. Marantz sr7012 gives me an opportunity to save 4 pre sets. So yes I understand that Audyssey would have my speakers and subs set to different levels. The subs should be set the same in my environment and Audyssey had them at different levels. The right sub was hitting hard and I would get the minimum out of the left. Much better now.

I am definitely gonna take a look at Schroeder Frequency and get the Audyssey app. $20 sounds like hours of entertainment. However I looked at the app, it looks like it would be the same Audyssey that the Marantz already has. Is this app something different?

When I was done last night, 2 channel play back was much much better. But then I messed up and lost what I had saved for multi channel. I'll fix that tonight. I guess what I totally missed, I had never set up 2 channel playback on the Marantz, I don't think I ever remember seeing it. And then looking into the Crown, I'm pretty confident I flat out overlooked the fact that there were settings for 1 and 2 channel.

It's still fun looking at new speakers. I watched a youtube earlier Klipsch RF7iii versus Svs Ultra. And my worse fears were realized. Klipsch truly have a sound of there own, an acquired taste. And although they sound good, if you want better I'm afraid I will have to change everything. Which is disappointing because I really like the 502s. They sound really good. Heights are heights, they don't run that much so I'm pretty confident I can leave the 500sa alone if I decide to make a change. Or, I can put together a 2 channel system for music.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
For danzilla, you will recognize I am sitting beyond your suggested 9 feet. And ryanosaur. my 7012 is only one step up to your 6012, so I'm sure you aware the 7012 can process 11 channels with a separate power source. My power source for the 2 rear heights is a 20 year old Rotel RB981
Thank you thank you thank you Ryan!!!! You beat me to those are powerful beasts and they need room to BREATH those to 8000fs are jammed way to tight in those corners and I bet you they are too close to those back walls as well

If you are into 2 channel listening they are also spread too far out most likely if that's a 12 by 13 ft room that means they are literally 12 ft apart? If spread too far that can mess with soundstage imaging and also can muddy the midrange as well

What crown amp do you use I have the 1502 XLS the setting for each channel should always be on stereo

You should never have those on a crossover each channel should run full range the crossovers should be handled through your reciever
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
I guarantee you the crossover issue on the crowns is also an issue
 
C

chrysler82000

Junior Audioholic
For the amount of subwoofage you are already sporting, you don't need huge bass-heavy towers. Speakers that can dip into the mid or low 30Hz range serve you no good when they're hi-passed at 80Hz. All my setups are 2.0 so bass extension is more of a concern to someone like me.

It would be interesting if someone auditioned several tower speakers set at 80Hz hi-pass (but no sub running) instead of full range, and then offered their insights based on the bandwidth they'd actually be using in their homes.
Too funny. I'm single, I can do what I want. And yes I have been hit by the bug. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't need whopping towers if I exchange the 8000's for something else. I think what I'm mostly looking for is a different more refined sound for music. The problem is, there aren't any brick and mortar stores to go to and listen. I rely on what I read.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
If you have any questions about how to set it to stereo mode on the crowns let me know.

Is there any way that you can expirement a bit with placement bring those 8000 off the corners and away from the walls a bit

I'd flip the subs into the front corners and move the towers closer in gradually moving them apart until you get the perfect image and soundstage and unmuddied midrange

Also can that center channel come out off that cabinet? There's all sorts of issues with diffraction with it in there if not we understand but it should be up higher when possible on level with the tweeters in your 8000fs if lower you should slightly angle it up in the front to the listener position

Corner loading those subs isn't so bad because the app has adjustments on it if you get too much room gain

Also is there no carpet or rug in front of the TV?

We are not trying to be critical just trying to help

Other then tweaking placement that is a beautiful room! Very well done sir I'd love to jam out over there!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
Too funny. I'm single, I can do what I want. And yes I have been hit by the bug. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't need whopping towers if I exchange the 8000's for something else. I think what I'm mostly looking for is a different more refined sound for music. The problem is, there aren't any brick and mortar stores to go to and listen. I rely on what I read.
I'm single as well so I love it! Freedom! The issue is those towers may just have a placement issue I know for a fact you don't have the crown amp setup properly

It's smarter to see if you can fix what you have first before you blow more money which could be spent on other stuff

Also have you thought about keeping one sub up front and putting the other near field behind the couch? Nothing quiet like it! It'll blow your mind!

Your room has so many delightful positions to try with speaker and sub placement In excited for you!!!!
 
C

chrysler82000

Junior Audioholic
Thank you thank you thank you Ryan!!!! You beat me to those are powerful beasts and they need room to BREATH those to 8000fs are jammed way to tight in those corners and I bet you they are too close to those back walls as well

If you are into 2 channel listening they are also spread too far out most likely if that's a 12 by 13 ft room that means they are literally 12 ft apart? If spread too far that can mess with soundstage imaging and also can muddy the midrange as well

What crown amp do you use I have the 1502 XLS the setting for each channel should always be on stereo

You should never have those on a crossover each channel should run full range the crossovers should be handled through your reciever
Ahhh. Thats why when I set the Crown to stereo it sounded way way different. I didn't know what that meant. As I mentioned earlier when I was setting up the Crown XLS1002 I didn't realize there was 1 AND 2 channel.

From the pics you can see my cabinet is kinda big, and the subs are pretty big too so I have no other option but to set the 8000's 12 feet apart. And yes the 8000's are slightly angled toward the middle of the room, my seating position, crammed up against the wall. Small room, lots of speakers. :cool:
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
If you can get the RP 8000 to play well with placement Id keep them any day all day it's not just about size or power they are very efficient at 92db as measured here and what you lucky dog have with those beautiful beasts combined with those pb 3000's is something most people won't is HEADROOM it won't take much on your volume knob to get that whole room to SING which means no distortion at any playback level you want

I'd take big badass efficient towers any day they'll have much more power to the crossover point that your subs take over here's how I had them set up in my old place

20190320_173505.jpg20190325_173107.jpg
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
Notice how far off that front wall they are and they are NOT by a corner you need to find a way to give them some room to breath any speaker you have is going to give you issues wedged in those corners like that
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
Ahhh. Thats why when I set the Crown to stereo it sounded way way different. I didn't know what that meant. As I mentioned earlier when I was setting up the Crown XLS1002 I didn't realize there was 1 AND 2 channel.

From the pics you can see my cabinet is kinda big, and the subs are pretty big too so I have no other option but to set the 8000's 12 feet apart. And yes the 8000's are slightly angled toward the middle of the room, my seating position, crammed up against the wall. Small room, lots of speakers. :cool:
Small room or not you've done a beautiful job and you are off to a great start I love your room!
 
C

chrysler82000

Junior Audioholic
If you have any questions about how to set it to stereo mode on the crowns let me know.

Is there any way that you can expirement a bit with placement bring those 8000 off the corners and away from the walls a bit

I'd flip the subs into the front corners and move the towers closer in gradually moving them apart until you get the perfect image and soundstage and unmuddied midrange

Also can that center channel come out off that cabinet? There's all sorts of issues with diffraction with it in there if not we understand but it should be up higher when possible on level with the tweeters in your 8000fs if lower you should slightly angle it up in the front to the listener position

Corner loading those subs isn't so bad because the app has adjustments on it if you get too much room gain

Also is there no carpet or rug in front of the TV?

We are not trying to be critical just trying to help

Other then tweaking placement that is a beautiful room! Very well done sir I'd love to jam out over there!
Ummm, I don't think your being critical at all. You're giving me everything I've been begging to get. Critique away....My experience is 14 months and this is my first system. I'm learning every day.

I can pull the 8000's away from the wall about an inch or 2. Kinda funny. My dad is constantly ragging on me about building that 6" soundproof wall. He says I need the 6". He might be right.

Flipping the subs. Ugh.... what you don't see is a stairway on the left which is already being obstructed from the 8000's. If I put the sub there it will stick way out and I will have to step over it to go upstairs. So, moving them to the outside not an option. And yes you can be critical why didn't I get something smaller. Well cuz then it wouldn't be as thunderous.

Center channel. yes it should be closer to ear level. yes it can come out of the cabinet. I was impressed how perfect it fit in there. It looks nice in there. If I put the grill back on you don't even notice it.

Nothing in that room to absorb sound. So yes sound bounces around a bit. I thought about putting some sound panels on the walls.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
Another thought is that seating up against a wall can come with acoustic issues, too...
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
@Danzilla31 nailed several other points I was leaving out for brevity and an interest in not overloading you. ;)
That center console and the center channel are problematic in several ways. To what extent it creates audible distortion to the sound quality is up for discussion and argument, but there will definitely be some issues that can be improved upon if you choose to pursue them.

One other thing I wanted to touch on:
Speakers, and the interaction between them and the room, are Sound Quality. If you enjoy the sound of the Klipsch, there is no reason it can’t do both Music and HT. But you have to dial in the room to suit the speakers. Placement and Toe-In angles will greatly affect their performance, and even an inch can make a significant change, better or worse, in SQ.
That said, the type of speaker, it’s design and sound radiation characteristics, will also greatly affect performance in room. What works for one will not necessarily work for the other.
Speakers like Klipsch do seem to have a certain quality to their sound that is unique to them, and other brands will, too. Some speakers are designed to be flat across their Frequency Response, while others may exhibit a rise or dip in places. All of these characteristics come together in the final performance.
With that in mind, reading reviews by quality writers is useful to gain some minor insight. More importantly, learning to interpret speaker measurements will help much more. Comparing good quality measurements with subjective reviews, and getting to compare and contrast that with actually hearing other speakers is where you really start learning. When you can do this and objectively learn what sounds best to you, then you are on the path to building a great system that is truly yours! :)
 
C

chrysler82000

Junior Audioholic
If you have any questions about how to set it to stereo mode on the crowns let me know.

Is there any way that you can expirement a bit with placement bring those 8000 off the corners and away from the walls a bit

I'd flip the subs into the front corners and move the towers closer in gradually moving them apart until you get the perfect image and soundstage and unmuddied midrange

Also can that center channel come out off that cabinet? There's all sorts of issues with diffraction with it in there if not we understand but it should be up higher when possible on level with the tweeters in your 8000fs if lower you should slightly angle it up in the front to the listener position

Corner loading those subs isn't so bad because the app has adjustments on it if you get too much room gain

Also is there no carpet or rug in front of the TV?

We are not trying to be critical just trying to help

Other then tweaking placement that is a beautiful room! Very well done sir I'd love to jam out over there!
And btw, thx for the compliment. You are welcome to come over any time. Suburbs of Chicago The only one that sits and enjoys this with me is my dad. I've been begging him to let me set somethin up in his basement. Might be a good excuse to replace my stuff, I can donate to him. He's old, I'll get it back in a few years. lol One thing none of you have asked me." What kind of content are I listening too?". Well, since you asked. Everything I watch and listen to is digital. Heos, youtube, downloaded movies from torrent, netflix, prime. I do believe some of the content I watch and listen to may also play a roll in how it sounds. When possible I watch and listen too 4k Dolby Vision Atmos. Dolby, hands down, makes the best product. HDR HDR+ Imax do not look or sound as good as dolby.

And I did set one sub behind me and one up front. I didn't like it.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Samurai
And btw, thx for the compliment. You are welcome to come over any time. Suburbs of Chicago The only one that sits and enjoys this with me is my dad. I've been begging him to let me set somethin up in his basement. Might be a good excuse to replace my stuff, I can donate to him. He's old, I'll get it back in a few years. lol One thing none of you have asked me." What kind of content are I listening too?". Well, since you asked. Everything I watch and listen to is digital. Heos, youtube, downloaded movies from torrent, netflix, prime. I do believe some of the content I watch and listen to may also play a roll in how it sounds. When possible I watch and listen too 4k Dolby Vision Atmos. Dolby, hands down, makes the best product. HDR HDR+ Imax do not look or sound as good as dolby.

And I did set one sub behind me and one up front. I didn't like it.
Your also welcome to come visit me if your up in good ol San Antonio Texas
 

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