I want more power behind my music

[DJ in TX]

Needing some advice on my next sound upgrade. I don’t know much technically, regarding watts per channel and various system components but I know you all will have lots to say on this, so here goes..

My current setup:

Denon AVR-S660H (info says 75 watts per channel)
Paradigm Atoms v.6 (bought in 2010)
Klipsch R-100SW (added about a year ago)

So to start, I’ll say that I do love the sound of my speakers. I appreciate them for my basic little home theater setup, but mostly I use them for music. Sometimes the sub is a bit too much for some movies TV shows, depending on the source material, so I turn down my sub sometimes to compensate. As for my Atoms, I have been enjoying them for a really long time and have no complaints about their sound quality.

With that said, I find myself lately feeling like I want more sound or power or something. I have thought about adding a couple more speakers, but I don’t know if this would really help. If I understand what I have been reading, it sounds like as my receiver has 75 watts per channel, that this is not much power and adding 2 more speakers would just divert some of the overall power from my atoms in favor of the new speakers and therefore drive each speaker even less. Is this right? If so, then what would be a good way to move forward? Instead of more speakers, would it be better to have a standalone power amp to drive the Atoms instead of having the receiver do it? I have been told that increasing from 75 watts per channel to 85 or even 95 watts per channel would not make much of a difference in power output and decibel level, but I may be misunderstanding.

Any advice here? As you can tell I have no idea what I am doing or how all the watts and power handling really work, but I do want to see what kind of improvement I could make to my current setup.

I should also add that I would not want to spend more than $300 or so. Your thoughts?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

At this budget, your best bet would be to find used Cerwin-Vega or Klipsch tower speakers.
Another option may be a DIY build with large woofers (8" plus) and high sensitivity, but most kits I've checked are out of stock right now.

Until you do, I'd also try to play with subwoofer crossover points and levels. Your sub wasn't the best choice, so it's unfortunately hard to lean on to compensate for the limited lower-middle bass that your small bookshelf speakers are missing.

 

[DJ in TX]

At this budget, your best bet would be to find used Cerwin-Vega or Klipsch tower speakers.
Another option may be a DIY build with large woofers (8" plus) and high sensitivity, but most kits I've checked are out of stock right now.

Until you do, I'd also try to play with subwoofer crossover points and levels. Your sub wasn't the best choice, so it's unfortunately hard to lean on to compensate for the limited lower-middle bass that your small bookshelf speakers are missing.

So you think my receiver has enough power and is not really the weak link?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

So you think my receiver has enough power and is not really the weak link?

Yes, and by far. It's the speakers. You'd need to 10x your budget before your avr power limit would be a problem.
You'd need to double amp power to notice a noticeable volume increase.

 

[DJ in TX]

Yes, and by far. It's the speakers. You'd need to 10x your budget before your avr power limit would be a problem.
You'd need to double amp power to notice a noticeable volume increase.

Ok, good to know. As for adding speakers, I don’t have the space (or spouse approval) to add large tower speakers in the living room. Is there a smaller category than a tower but maybe a bit bigger than a bookshelf that would still make a big impact? Would a second set of bookshelves do this or not really?

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, good to know. As for adding speakers, I don’t have the space (or spouse approval) to add large tower speakers in the living room. Is there a smaller category than a tower but maybe a bit bigger than a bookshelf that would still make a big impact? Would a second set of bookshelves do this or not really?

You are using small compact bookshelf speaker, 8 ohm impedance and sensitivity of 90db. 1 watt 1 meter. Max power input is 75 to 80 watts.

That means that without spending a lot of money then you have to be content with what you have.

Adding speakers will make a mess.

Your current receiver can power your current speakers to the max, so adding an amp will be a waste of time, and if powerful will will likely destroy your speakers

Now you are upper against the loudness law. It is a log law. So for every 3db increase in loudness you have to double the amp power or have speakers 3db more sensitive. 3db is the bare minimal increase that is easily detectable. To double the perceived loudness requires increasing power by a factor of 10. In your case 750 watts per channel.

The bad news for you is that high powered systems that do that well, are very costly.

It takes really robust, large powerful speakers and powerful amps.

So, with your budget, and the fact you like those speakers, my advice is to be content with what you have now.

 

[DJ in TX]

You are using small compact bookshelf speaker, 8 ohm impedance and sensitivity of 90db. 1 watt 1 meter. Max power input is 75 to 80 watts.

That means that without spending a lot of money then you have to be content with what you have.

Adding speakers will make a mess.

Your current receiver can power your current speakers to the max, so adding an amp will be a waste of time, and if powerful will will likely destroy your speakers

Now you are upper against the loudness law. It is a log law. So for every 3db increase in loudness you have to double the amp power or have speakers 3db more sensitive. 3db is the bare minimal increase that is easily detectable. To double the perceived loudness requires increasing power by a factor of 10. In your case 750 watts per channel.

The bad news for you is that high powered systems that do that well, are very costly.

It takes really robust, large powerful speakers and powerful amps.

So, with your budget, and the fact you like those speakers, my advice is to be content with what you have now.

Yeah ok. I was already starting to lean in that direction as well. At least that option is free and easy. Lol. Thanks for the input.

 

[lovinthehd]

As others have said, the smallish speakers are your bigger limitation (keep in mind larger speakers tend to be more efficient/sensitive, whereas many think it's the other way around). How far are you from the speakers? Long distances won't help. There are more powerful avrs, but not likely going to make much difference with those speakers.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

To help you understand a bit better what TLS Guy said (who designed a crap ton of high quality speakers) - he means high output AND high quality (as in accurate) speakers are indeed very expensive, but if you stick with More Loud and a bit Less quality, then it doesn't have to be very expensive. Like I said, I believe you could find some used Cerwin-Vega or Klipsch speakers in your area (assuming a North American location near a major metro). Do these change or color the sound? Yes, they do, but for some music genres, especially ones most people like to listen to LOUD, they work just fine. That said, you want a realistic sound Boardwalk Hall Auditorium Organ then I'm afraid you need to win the lottery

p.s:
There is such a thing as a Large bookshelf, but you have to accept the harsh reality of physics laws - big sound needs big speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

To help you understand a bit better what TLS Guy said (who designed a crap ton of high quality speakers) - he means high output AND high quality (as in accurate) speakers are indeed very expensive, but if you stick with More Loud and a bit Less quality, then it doesn't have to be very expensive. Like I said, I believe you could find some used Cerwin-Vega or Klipsch speakers in your area (assuming a North American location near a major metro). Do these change or color the sound? Yes, they do, but for some music genres, especially ones most people like to listen to LOUD, they work just fine. That said, you want a realistic sound Boardwalk Hall Auditorium Organ then I'm afraid you need to win the lottery

p.s:
There is such a thing as a Large bookshelf, but you have to accept the harsh reality of physics laws - big sound needs big speakers.

The problem is that he loves the sound of his speakers. Those speakers are actually a very nice and competently designed speaker. I think if he moves to Klipsch or Cerwin- Vega, he will be really unhappy.

Power and good requires a lot of cash.

 

[Mikado463]

The problem is that he loves the sound of his speakers. Those speakers are actually a very nice and competently designed speaker. I think if he moves to Klipsch or Cerwin- Vega, he will be really unhappy.

Power and good requires a lot of cash.

Yep. agreed, keep saving........

 

[PENG]

Save up a little, then sell the Klipsch sub and grab a SVS PB1000 Pro could be a good first step.

 

[Mikado463]

Save up a little, then sell the Klipsch sub and grab a SVS PB1000 Pro qould be a good first step.

agreed, I had a Klipsch sub many years back, weak link for sure.....

 

[TLS Guy]

Save up a little, then sell the Klipsch sub and grab a SVS PB1000 Pro could be a good first step.

That will help, but those are not high powered speakers, but as far as I can tell an excellent design. He likes those speakers, so yes, a better sub might give him the edge he is looking for.

 

[ski2xblack]

I think we have you on the right track so far.

Save up a little, then sell the Klipsch sub and grab a SVS PB1000 Pro could be a good first step.

...or RSL 12S, or Hsu VTF-2 Mk 5, all somewhat better than the Klipsh, good values, but not too over the top to pair with your modest Atom mains. I second the others, keep 'em for now.

So with the Atoms being the limiting factor, well liked and keepers for the time being, with the objective being a more powerful presentation, I'll toss out a suggestion to try some equalization. Being pretty decent speakers they'll take to eq, so as long as you can live within modest spl limits you should be able to give it a bit more warmth/palp/subjective "power". Try a subtle (1-1.5 db) cut around 1800 khz or thereabouts.

Edit: I see the Denon manual eq bands are a bit off from what I suggested, so try the cut at 2khz. You could cut higher frequencies as well, but I don't think you'll need to, just don't cut anything below 1khz, where the power resides.

I also see that it has DEQ, another option, if a bit wonky in implementation (it messes with rear speaker levels for some inexplicable reason). I personally would go with the manual eq over DEQ.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think we have you on the right track so far.


...or RSL 12S, or Hsu VTF-2 Mk 5, all somewhat better than the Klipsh, good values, but not too over the top to pair with your modest NHT mains. I second the others, keep 'em for now.

So with the NHTs being the limiting factor, but the objective being a more powerful presentation, I'll toss out a suggestion to try some equalization. Being pretty decent speakers they'll take to eq, so as long as you can live within modest spl limits you should be able to give it a bit more warmth/palp/subjective "power". Try a subtle (1-1.5 db) cut around 1800 khz or thereabouts.

Edit: I see the Denon manual eq bands are a bit off from what I suggested, so try the cut at 2khz. You could cut higher frequencies as well, but I don't think you'll need to, just don't cut anything below 1khz, where the power resides.

I also see that it has DEQ, another option, if a bit wonky in implementation (it messes with rear speaker levels for some inexplicable reason).

He has the Paradigm Atom 6 speakers....

 

[ski2xblack]

Doh! My bad. Well, still, I think he might as well try some eq. He's got it, and it may help. A subtle bbc dip will make the lower freq more present, relatively speaking. I do it on my nearfield office rig for exactly that reason. I found a little bit of tonal warmth goes a long way, and seems to scale bigger. That could be enough to scratch the OP's itch for "more sound or power or whatever" as he put it.

 

[DJ in TX]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, it’s very helpful and I think you also saved me from going down the wrong path. Had I spent 300-400 on speakers and or an amp and it didn’t sound any better I would have been kicking myself. Thanks!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For 300 bucks, I think I would dump the klipsch and try this.

Speedwoofer 10E

RSL Speakers - A division of Rogersound Labs - is a factory direct loudspeaker manufacturer, since 1970, based in Los Angeles, California. Family owned and operated.

rslspeakers.com

Imo, it should play nicer with a higher XO than the Klipsch. That should hopefully fill in the upper bass and midbass giving the punch. I prefer to let the mains cover the midrange, but that doesn’t seem to be an option for OP at this time.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, it’s very helpful and I think you also saved me from going down the wrong path. Had I spent 300-400 on speakers and or an amp and it didn’t sound any better I would have been kicking myself. Thanks!

Hard to predict what you might like or just be accustomed to....speakers are generally the best path to better sound, if not working on your room. If the amp is sufficient, it's fine. The idea of the sub could be an idea since your Atoms have little low bass capability and your Klipsch sub is likely poor over a broad enough range of frequencies.