I voted this morning

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
A quick perspective that I would like to point out:

No one looks over their shoulder for the radical Buddhist, Shintoist, Coptic etc...

It's not the radical part that is of particular problem for whatever reason. Just looking for answers in my increasingly sideways leaning world.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
In other news: Spent the weekend with friends that are highly educated, very liberal, and were totally about a female president regardless of baggage.

Based on what I heard, their inability to consider the view point of a Trump supporter, well, he'll make an 8 year president.

I've said it before but it repeats saying: There is such a thing as an educated idiot.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
I'm keeping an open mind about the Trump Presidency. The alternative leaves me scared for all my non-WASP friends and acquaintances, and I'd rather not live that way. At the moment, things are moving in a positive direction, and it is not beneficial to conjure more woe than actually exists.

Besides, Trump wants to be worshiped. He sees himself as a gift to mankind, and expects others to see him that way, too. I think he will do whatever maximizes his approval rating. He wants to be loved. That's what he did on the campaign trail, and I think that's what he'll continue while in office. Appointing a special prosecutor to jail his political opponent was frowned upon both by the left and the right, so he abandoned that idea. Appointing the alt-right head of Breitbart to his cabinet was met with cries of outrage, so he tapped the more mainstream Reince Priebus to re-balance the scale. We'll see what other compromises he concedes.

And who knows? Maybe a tariff on cheap Chinese crap wouldn't be the worst way to make it less equitable for American companies to move production overseas. If it doesn't work, maybe he'll try something else. That's what FDR did with his New Deal, right?

We survived Dubyeh. We'll survive Trump. I doubt he can disappoint us, but he has gobs of room to impress us. We'll see what happens.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
The ones who go around saying "I am or he/she was a good Christian" to anyone who'll listen seem to be the worst (Televangelists, families of dead people who were killed in some kind of shooting/stabbing incident/drunk driving/drug deal gone bad) and your example of White Supremacists. Anyone who thinks these people are "good Christians" needs to read the Bible and as for Muslims, 1) there are many verses that recommend violence or death in the Q'Ran which seem like the polar opposite of "turn the other cheek" and that's why I have a problem with this. Many Muslims want Sharia Law in their new countries and that doesn't work- they shouldn't expect to leave their homeland because it's a war-torn hellhole and go to a new place, forcing their ways on the overwhelming majority to comply, under threat of death. Look at the Muslim rioting in Europe, Turkey and other places- Turkey is threatening to release tens of thousands of "refugees" from the Middle East and Africa into Europe because the EU is balking at letting Turkey join. Even 2) Angela Merkel is having second thoughts about the wisdom of allowing so many into Germany and that's not out of hatred, it's because they can't conduct themselves in a civil manner.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-refugee-riot-puts-a-german-town-on-edge/2015/10/01/fa9075bc-65f5-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33999801

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34278886

The issue for many is that if the refugees are allowed into a country in large enough numbers, they will eventually have enough voting power that the end result will be a complete overturn of the system of government.

Yes, I realize that it looks like I have forgotten what happened in North, Central and South America during Colonial times- I haven't. One main difference is that at that time, people were required to work for their place and the colonies were run as businesses, once the heads of the Pilgrims' homeland became involved. Initially, the English Protestants came to escape anything Catholic, but the money to get here mainly came from wealthy benefactors or the Crown, which wanted its cut of the action. If England/the Crown had wanted to stick its neck out, it could have just sent the military, but they let settlers go and take the hit. What those settlers did once they arrived is still not fully known, but the first had a hard time, partially because they didn't reach shore until Winter, at a time when the water level wouldn't allow them to anchor closer to land.

All of that aside, 3) they DIDN'T come here to take over by violence and to overthrow any inhabitants, they came to escape religious prosecution and their perceived tyranny. The latter, as we know, caused the Revolution.
1) I have never read the Q'Ran, so I can't comment on that. But, I do know that there is plenty of violence and death in the Bible. Christianity has "grown up", to a large extent, and placed those writings in the context of the times they were written in. That said, shootings of abortion doctors remind us that not every Christian has read the memo. Islam will mature, as well...someday.

2) I can't argue with the Germans having second thoughts. To a large extent, the admission of that vast number of refugees to Germany was uncontrolled, without any kind of screening. Then large numbers end up crammed into refugee camps. It's a recipe for trouble, no doubt. If there is insufficient housing and language/skills training programs in place, you have to expect problems, whether they are from Syria or Syracuse. And, the problems they are having are almost completely with young, single, idle men - which is a universally troublesome demographic. I admire the German generosity, but they have bitten off more than they can chew.

However, that's where the US and Canada have the huge luxury of distance and ocean. We can be highly selective in who and how many refugees we accept. Contrary to what Mr. Trump has stated, thorough vetting is already in place - it can take several months to fully clear any family for admission. My church is sponsoring a family - it's been almost a year since the screening process started and they aren't here yet. And, as far as I know, families with children are pretty much all that Canada is accepting - we're trying to be generous, not stupid.

3) If you talk to pretty much any native North/South American, I think you would have a slightly different opinion. Their land was mostly stolen - violently, if natives didn't agree with it. Foreign religions were forced down their throats and they were subjected to tyranny as non- or second-class citizens. This happened from the Arctic to Tierra del Fuego.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
If there is insufficient housing and language/skills training programs in place, you have to expect problems, whether they are from Syria or Syracuse.
That's a cheap shot!
Anyone from Syracuse is just gonna be trouble regardless of the conditions!:D
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
1) I have never read the Q'Ran, so I can't comment on that. But, I do know that there is plenty of violence and death in the Bible. Christianity has "grown up", to a large extent, and placed those writings in the context of the times they were written in. That said, shootings of abortion doctors remind us that not every Christian has read the memo. Islam will mature, as well...someday.

2) I can't argue with the Germans having second thoughts. To a large extent, the admission of that vast number of refugees to Germany was uncontrolled, without any kind of screening. Then large numbers end up crammed into refugee camps. It's a recipe for trouble, no doubt. If there is insufficient housing and language/skills training programs in place, you have to expect problems, whether they are from Syria or Syracuse. And, the problems they are having are almost completely with young, single, idle men - which is a universally troublesome demographic. I admire the German generosity, but they have bitten off more than they can chew.

However, that's where the US and Canada have the huge luxury of distance and ocean. We can be highly selective in who and how many refugees we accept. Contrary to what Mr. Trump has stated, thorough vetting is already in place - it can take several months to fully clear any family for admission. My church is sponsoring a family - it's been almost a year since the screening process started and they aren't here yet. And, as far as I know, families with children are pretty much all that Canada is accepting - we're trying to be generous, not stupid.

3) If you talk to pretty much any native North/South American, I think you would have a slightly different opinion. Their land was mostly stolen - violently, if natives didn't agree with it. Foreign religions were forced down their throats and they were subjected to tyranny as non- or second-class citizens. This happened from the Arctic to Tierra del Fuego.
I found some sites that had translations of the Q'Ran after 9-11 because I wanted to know what kind of weapons-grade A-holes would do something like that. I have read more afterward, just to make sure the first impression during the painful period wasn't the only exposure to it and my opinion hasn't changed.

My basic view-

-In Islam, people aren't equal, by any stretch of the imagination.
-I feel that punishment should fit the crime and many acts are treated more harshly than I think necessary.
-I'm not a religious person. Raised Catholic, I'm like a lot of others who left that church and haven't found anything that really appeals to me. However, unlike many devout followers of religions, I feel that killing "in the name of God" is just wrong. Anyone can justify their actions, but that's just absurd. I also think that if someone follows a particular faith or a branch of a faith, they should leave others alone if they don't follow the same. That also goes for people who are agnostic and atheist- people who don't believe should leave others if they do and they should stop being, again, weapons-grade A-holes about it. I don't believe that a small number of butt-hurt people (hard core atheists who sue over Christmas music, decorations, etc) should be able to dictate anything about the religious observance of others. I and my generation were taught the "Sticks and stones....." saying and it's obvious that it's no longer something people are interested in. I fail to see how someone can be so offended by this. Ironically, many of the loudest complainers WRT freedom from religion are also gung ho about telling others they should welcome cultural diversity.
- I don't believe in giving a pass to any religion that targets others who observe another religion, based on the belief that they'll win prizes and happiness after they die carrying out the attack- this goes for ALL religions.
-I fail to see how one religion with the same foundation as two earlier ones can be "the correct interpretation" when it was founded more than 600 years later, at a time when most people weren't literate and most history and traditions were passed down verbally. Yes, many writings exist from that time and before, but most people couldn't read them.

If Catholics were shooting up and bombing the crap out of planes, airports, schools, police stations, concert venues, etc, I doubt anyone from other religions would have a problem if the TSA and Homeland Security kept tabs on them. The first Colonists came to this country to escape all things Catholic and Kennedy was the first Catholic POTUS- they haven't been universally loved. The Jews were persecuted for over 2000 years, in one way or another- Islamic terrorists basically took time off until roughly the mid-1900s after the time when they were the Barbary Pirates and long periods before the 1800s- they seem to be making up for lost time.

The Muslim who slashed students yesterday wrote "By Allah, we will not let you sleep unless you give peace to the Muslims. You will not celebrate or enjoy any holiday."- while he may not reflect mainstream Islam (hard to say, since so little is heard from them), he may have been in contact with others who have been radicalized, if the ISIS comment from today is any indication.

The problem of the refugees is more in how their home countries treat people who aren't part of the inside circle and they really have no choice. However, sending people in who have nothing to lose to host countries that are trying to help is turning out to be a case of "no good deed goes unpunished".

Your last paragraph is exactly why I began to question religion. Yes, it was a time when people were far more primitive (I mean the settlers and priests who came with them, on a mission to "save the heathens from themselves". They seemed to be fine before and as soon as the Great Father showed up, they were screwed. Also, it's a good idea to learn and remember who were the main proponents of squashing the Indigenous People - George Washington was one of them.

History has a strange way of loving people who didn't always deserve it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That poll was taken in 2002. I wouldn't be surprised if attitudes have changed somewhat since then. I am not sure of your point, but you will need to cite a more recent poll than that.
It's a lot more recent than Leviticus, that's for sure. :D
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I found some sites that had translations of the Q'Ran after 9-11 because I wanted to know what kind of weapons-grade A-holes would do something like that. I have read more afterward, just to make sure the first impression during the painful period wasn't the only exposure to it and my opinion hasn't changed.

My basic view-

-In Islam, people aren't equal, by any stretch of the imagination.
-I feel that punishment should fit the crime and many acts are treated more harshly than I think necessary.
-I'm not a religious person. Raised Catholic, I'm like a lot of others who left that church and haven't found anything that really appeals to me. However, unlike many devout followers of religions, I feel that killing "in the name of God" is just wrong. Anyone can justify their actions, but that's just absurd. I also think that if someone follows a particular faith or a branch of a faith, they should leave others alone if they don't follow the same. That also goes for people who are agnostic and atheist- people who don't believe should leave others if they do and they should stop being, again, weapons-grade A-holes about it. I don't believe that a small number of butt-hurt people (hard core atheists who sue over Christmas music, decorations, etc) should be able to dictate anything about the religious observance of others. I and my generation were taught the "Sticks and stones....." saying and it's obvious that it's no longer something people are interested in. I fail to see how someone can be so offended by this. Ironically, many of the loudest complainers WRT freedom from religion are also gung ho about telling others they should welcome cultural diversity.
- I don't believe in giving a pass to any religion that targets others who observe another religion, based on the belief that they'll win prizes and happiness after they die carrying out the attack- this goes for ALL religions.
-I fail to see how one religion with the same foundation as two earlier ones can be "the correct interpretation" when it was founded more than 600 years later, at a time when most people weren't literate and most history and traditions were passed down verbally. Yes, many writings exist from that time and before, but most people couldn't read them.

If Catholics were shooting up and bombing the crap out of planes, airports, schools, police stations, concert venues, etc, I doubt anyone from other religions would have a problem if the TSA and Homeland Security kept tabs on them. The first Colonists came to this country to escape all things Catholic and Kennedy was the first Catholic POTUS- they haven't been universally loved. The Jews were persecuted for over 2000 years, in one way or another- Islamic terrorists basically took time off until roughly the mid-1900s after the time when they were the Barbary Pirates and long periods before the 1800s- they seem to be making up for lost time.

The Muslim who slashed students yesterday wrote "By Allah, we will not let you sleep unless you give peace to the Muslims. You will not celebrate or enjoy any holiday."- while he may not reflect mainstream Islam (hard to say, since so little is heard from them), he may have been in contact with others who have been radicalized, if the ISIS comment from today is any indication.

The problem of the refugees is more in how their home countries treat people who aren't part of the inside circle and they really have no choice. However, sending people in who have nothing to lose to host countries that are trying to help is turning out to be a case of "no good deed goes unpunished".

Your last paragraph is exactly why I began to question religion. Yes, it was a time when people were far more primitive (I mean the settlers and priests who came with them, on a mission to "save the heathens from themselves". They seemed to be fine before and as soon as the Great Father showed up, they were screwed. Also, it's a good idea to learn and remember who were the main proponents of squashing the Indigenous People - George Washington was one of them.

History has a strange way of loving people who didn't always deserve it.
I think we are in agreement, that no faith holds a monopoly on the "truth". My take is that you are fully entitled to believe and practice your faith (or, lack of it) as you see fit, as long as you're not interfering with someone else's rights.

I have no issue with keeping tabs on any individuals who can be linked to radical activity of a criminal nature. But, I have a big problem with monitoring everyone within a certain demographic, because of the actions of a few. If we decided to spy on all gun owners because of the actions of a few nutbars, how would you feel about that?

As for no good deed going unpunished, I would argue that Canada is having far greater success absorbing middle-eastern refugees (than European countries), because we can limit the numbers and be better prepared to integrate them after they arrive. The USA could, as well, if there was any will to do so. Sure, it isn't an easy, seamless process. One problem is that language training programs have not been sufficient to keep up with demand, but that is being addressed. And, by bringing in families with kids, we have largely avoided the problem of young, single men with too much time on their hands.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
As for no good deed going unpunished, I would argue that Canada is having far greater success absorbing middle-eastern refugees (than European countries), because we can limit the numbers and be better prepared to integrate them after they arrive. The USA could, as well, if there was any will to do so. Sure, it isn't an easy, seamless process. One problem is that language training programs have not been sufficient to keep up with demand, but that is being addressed. And, by bringing in families with kids, we have largely avoided the problem of young, single men with too much time on their hands.
Stopping single males of a certain demographic is still profiling and families can be as hard-core as anyone else. The problem is that we already have as many who are here illegally (estimated, over several years) as 1/3 of Canada's entire population- how would you deal with more people coming in if this was happening up there if you were in charge of the issue?
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Stopping single males of a certain demographic is still profiling and families can be as hard-core as anyone else. The problem is that we already have as many who are here illegally (estimated, over several years) as 1/3 of Canada's entire population- how would you deal with more people coming in if this was happening up there if you were in charge of the issue?
Yes, it is profiling. But, I believe it's what happens during screening. Families with kids "score higher", because they are seen as more vulnerable and in greater need than single males. I would place kids closer to the front of the line, as well, if it were up to me. Families can indeed be "hard core", but that's all part of the reason for screening. If a wannabe terrorist is trying to get into Canada by using the refugee route, he will need a lot of patience with the bureaucracy. The only guaranteed things in life are death and taxes, so we could what-if-it to death. To turn our backs on them, while the main reason for middle-east turmoil is Western interference in the region in the first place, isn't right.

The problem of illegal immigration is a different matter altogether. I get that it's "more mouths to feed", but if you have 11,000,000 illegal immigrants, what difference will 25,000, or so, refugees make?

If you're agin' it, that's OK. I'm just presenting a different opinion.:)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Almost back to the original topic...

I thought this was a very interesting interview of Noam Chomsky on the campaign process in the U.S.

He is talking about Obama's campaign in 2008 (the interview is 2010), but so much applies to the election BS we all suffered through over the past months. To my way of thinking, the headline is a poor descriptor of the overall content - I think it is a "gotcha' statement to rope people in. At least I did not walk away from it remembering "Liberal Disillusionment with Obama" (that is only a small part of the content).


PS- While Chomsky is left leaning, he pretty much holds all of US politics in contempt. This clip is more about the campaign process than the parties.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, it is profiling. But, I believe it's what happens during screening. Families with kids "score higher", because they are seen as more vulnerable and in greater need than single males. I would place kids closer to the front of the line, as well, if it were up to me. Families can indeed be "hard core", but that's all part of the reason for screening. If a wannabe terrorist is trying to get into Canada by using the refugee route, he will need a lot of patience with the bureaucracy. The only guaranteed things in life are death and taxes, so we could what-if-it to death. To turn our backs on them, while the main reason for middle-east turmoil is Western interference in the region in the first place, isn't right.

The problem of illegal immigration is a different matter altogether. I get that it's "more mouths to feed", but if you have 11,000,000 illegal immigrants, what difference will 25,000, or so, refugees make?

If you're agin' it, that's OK. I'm just presenting a different opinion.:)
It's not just more mouths to feed- people went nuts when Trump called Mexicans 'rapists and murderers', but in California, illegal Mexicans are a large % of the prison population. In Milwaukee, if you were to look at the sexual offenders site, you would see that a huge % are indeed Hispanic. I looked at that site after a local TV news story and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Milwaukee isn't far from being a cesspool.

But it's not just prisons, it's the cost for added fire and police protection, EMS, uninsured hospital visits (several have closed here because so many uninsured people used the ER for basic care) and also for the higher insurance rates.

I work on jobs with Latinos on a regular basis and THEY'RE nice people, but as in any group, many aren't. I don't want isolationism, I want people to obey laws and follow the freaking rules.

I was discussing this stuff with someone yesterday and he commented that the social contract is no longer in effect.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
It's not just more mouths to feed- people went nuts when Trump called Mexicans 'rapists and murderers', but in California, illegal Mexicans are a large % of the prison population. In Milwaukee, if you were to look at the sexual offenders site, you would see that a huge % are indeed Hispanic. I looked at that site after a local TV news story and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Milwaukee isn't far from being a cesspool.

But it's not just prisons, it's the cost for added fire and police protection, EMS, uninsured hospital visits (several have closed here because so many uninsured people used the ER for basic care) and also for the higher insurance rates.

I work on jobs with Latinos on a regular basis and THEY'RE nice people, but as in any group, many aren't. I don't want isolationism, I want people to obey laws and follow the freaking rules.

I was discussing this stuff with someone yesterday and he commented that the social contract is no longer in effect.
Is this discussion transitioning from refugees to ethnic groups in the US? Because, it's an apples and oranges comparison. All I'm saying is that with the screening being done, the risk in bringing in refugees from Syria and Iraq is infinitesimally small. The European experience is not remotely similar. If the US doesn't want to admit any of those people, fine. Just make sure it's for the right reasons and don't make it this generation's commies hiding under the bed.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Almost back to the original topic...

I thought this was a very interesting interview of Noam Chomsky on the campaign process in the U.S.

He is talking about Obama's campaign in 2008 (the interview is 2010), but so much applies to the election BS we all suffered through over the past months. To my way of thinking, the headline is a poor descriptor of the overall content - I think it is a "gotcha' statement to rope people in. At least I did not walk away from it remembering "Liberal Disillusionment with Obama" (that is only a small part of the content).


PS- While Chomsky is left leaning, he pretty much holds all of US politics in contempt. This clip is more about the campaign process than the parties.
I think you'll find that election campaigns have become quite similar in most western countries - criticise your opponents more than inform the electorate and frame your platform in whichever way you figure will attract enough voters. Then, after you win, the platform goes into the garbage bin. I voted for the Liberal party up here in our last federal election - not because I bought their list of promises, which I'm pretty sure included unicorns for everyone, but because I was so disillusioned with the Conservative party. We don't tend to elect new governments here - we just toss out the old ones. Getting a new one is just a byproduct...
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I voted for the Liberal party up here in our last federal election - not because I bought their list of promises, which I'm pretty sure included unicorns for everyone, but because I was so disillusioned with the Conservative party....
I'm from the school that Democrats and Republicans parties are simply different wings on the same vulture.
Politics 101: Government is one group, disguised as two major parties playing Good Cop / Bad Cop.
Big Government, Big Business and Big Religion have been in bed together since the beginning.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm from the school that Democrats and Republicans parties are simply different wings on the same vulture.
Politics 101: Government is one group, disguised as two major parties playing Good Cop / Bad Cop.
Big Government, Big Business and Big Religion have been in bed together since the beginning.
Most governments operate under the idea that they can control people by telling them who to fear and who to blame. With Congress' 11% approval rating, it's clear that it's working because they're the ones who are at the bottom of our problems.
 
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