I need hHelp designing ports for a sub-20hz build!

R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
I'm currently eyeballing (eyehumping?) a pair of Mach5 Audio IXL-18mk2, or possibly a pair of UXL-18 (depending on funding level) for a soon upcoming build, but I'm really having some troubles here.

I've modeled the performance till my heart couldn't take anymore in WinISD alpha, and am very happy with both, but have a lingering problem. How the heck do you get acceptable air speeds without having the 1st port resonance inside, or very close to the usefull range?

The IXL fairs the best. ixl-18mk2 16cuft per driver, 16hz vent tuning. 19x2.0" vent area, 19.77" long. 750w input modeled (keeps it below linear xmax full bandwidth). Keeps the air speed <20m/s 20+, 1st resonance is at 342hz. Sub 20hz the air speed climbs to 37m/s @14hz.. past chuffing and into compression.

The UXL is killing me. uxl-18, 10cuft per driver, 16 hz vent tuning. 16x2.35" vent area, 34.29" long, 1200w input modeled (thermal rating), 197hz 1st port resonance (even at 48db/octave slope, that's tight), same 37m/s airspeed at 14hz.

Is there any balance to be had here? I would consider 4x ixl's in sealed boxes, but the power requirements would be astronomical.

Just fyi, Behringer nu6000dsp is driving these.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
The IXL isn't meant to be ported, unless you want to build about a very large box with very long ports. In my modeling with bassbox pro I'm getting about 15cuft and 2 28" long 4" in dimeter ports to get sub 20hz performance. However, even then you're power limited and will need a high pass filter at like 15-20. You could probably get away with 15hz with a 48db/oct high pass, but I don't know if the behringer will do that.

Do you already have the Behringer? Personally I'd skip it and go with a miniDSP and maybe a crown xls2500 and bridge it. That way you get quieter fans, better DSP, and then build it sealed. Sealed models with similar output as vented with similar amounts of power (~500w), uses up a ton less xmax, and allows you to pump as much power as you want into it without fear of destroying the driver. Trying to force a driver better suited to one alignment into another is never a good idea.
 
R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
Already have the Behringer, and yes it does 48db/octave high and low pass.

I'm not sure about the idea that the ixl isn't meant for ported enclsoures, since there's a 500l 15hz ebs tune listed on their site as a recommended box (along side a sealed and 30hz boom box tunes).

WinISD gives me a very different outlook than Bassbox Pro apparently, showing a very minor power limit in a 16cuft box vented (750w), vs a sealed build that'll be comparatively 4dB down at 20hz, 5.5dB down at 16 at thermal (800w)

My previous sub suffered from massive port noise (chuffing) and port compression under high power, and I'm trying to avoid that at all costs, I really want something that'll be clean when driven (reasonably) hard... sealed may be the answer but 4dB-5dB is nothing to sneeze at. If I model the vented driver at 4dB down to match the sealed boxes, port noise is much less of an issue :/ Conflicted would best describe me right now.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
It's too late for me to rerun the sims in bassbox pro, but you're missing the point or perhaps never learned it. Sealed boxes are meant to have a 12db/oct boost applied at the roll off point because they naturally rolloff at 12db/oct. This is why it's possible to get them flat to single digits. If you apply the appropriate boost, the power requirements go up, but you'll end up with extension you're looking for. Thereby eliminating the 4-5db difference and being way up on the ported alignment the lower you go.

Is the behringer hooked up to a 20amp dedicated line or a 15amp dedicated line? If not don't expect to hit those powers numbers, although if the sub is properly leveled matched and you're not listening above reference you probably wouldn't need the power anyways.
 
R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
The Behringer will be on a dedicated 20a circuit (already installed). Hoping I won't *need* that much power though.

I understand the appropriate boost needed for sealed box flat response (once upon a time ran two jbl 2240 18's in critically damped enclosures), but I also see the shortcomings of output when they become power starved. I guess the real question is, at reference, how much output will I really need? Will two ixl's sealed meet my demands (reference in a large, leaky, ugly listening room), without outstripping my amplifier's output, or alternatively becoming expensive paper weights?

Pros for sealed: no port noise, no vent related compression, better power handling, very low group delay (easier integration), extremely simple designs, smaller enclosures?
Pros for vented: better efficiency, less chance of power related compression, less chance of thermal armageddon... aka all efficiency related.

Thanks for the response fuzz092888, sometimes I just need a second opinion to bounce ideas and thoughts off, and you're definitely helping me shape my plans.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards sealed... don't you hate it when someone gives you a little push that ultimately changes your entire outlook? ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm currently eyeballing (eyehumping?) a pair of Mach5 Audio IXL-18mk2, or possibly a pair of UXL-18 (depending on funding level) for a soon upcoming build, but I'm really having some troubles here.

I've modeled the performance till my heart couldn't take anymore in WinISD alpha, and am very happy with both, but have a lingering problem. How the heck do you get acceptable air speeds without having the 1st port resonance inside, or very close to the usefull range?

The IXL fairs the best. ixl-18mk2 16cuft per driver, 16hz vent tuning. 19x2.0" vent area, 19.77" long. 750w input modeled (keeps it below linear xmax full bandwidth). Keeps the air speed <20m/s 20+, 1st resonance is at 342hz. Sub 20hz the air speed climbs to 37m/s @14hz.. past chuffing and into compression.

The UXL is killing me. uxl-18, 10cuft per driver, 16 hz vent tuning. 16x2.35" vent area, 34.29" long, 1200w input modeled (thermal rating), 197hz 1st port resonance (even at 48db/octave slope, that's tight), same 37m/s airspeed at 14hz.

Is there any balance to be had here? I would consider 4x ixl's in sealed boxes, but the power requirements would be astronomical.

Just fyi, Behringer nu6000dsp is driving these.
You can't make a vented enclosure for the IXL Mk 2. If you built one it would sound awful. You would have a horrid loose boomy bass. The T/S parameters preclude a vented alignment. The UXL-18 may be worth a run for vented alignment. If you want I will do it. I would say that outfit, don't know how to get their T/S parameters in the sweet spot.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Sure do :p

I'll say this about power and output. Unless you're trying to fill a leaky 3000cuft space they should be more than fine sealed with the power you're giving them, once properly leveled. Right now I have a dual opposed with LMS Ultras running off of a two channel 800wpc amp that is connected to an undedicated 15amp outlet. I don't exactly listen quietly,I've hit 115dbC pretty easily at +3 and it goes to +14, and never tripped the breaker or clipped the amp. I'm guessing you'll be fine sealed.

The Behringer will be on a dedicated 20a circuit (already installed). Hoping I won't *need* that much power though.

I understand the appropriate boost needed for sealed box flat response (once upon a time ran two jbl 2240 18's in critically damped enclosures), but I also see the shortcomings of output when they become power starved. I guess the real question is, at reference, how much output will I really need? Will two ixl's sealed meet my demands (reference in a large, leaky, ugly listening room), without outstripping my amplifier's output, or alternatively becoming expensive paper weights?

Pros for sealed: no port noise, no vent related compression, better power handling, very low group delay (easier integration), extremely simple designs, smaller enclosures?
Pros for vented: better efficiency, less chance of power related compression, less chance of thermal armageddon... aka all efficiency related.

Thanks for the response fuzz092888, sometimes I just need a second opinion to bounce ideas and thoughts off, and you're definitely helping me shape my plans.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards sealed... don't you hate it when someone gives you a little push that ultimately changes your entire outlook? ;)
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I suggest a sealed RE Audio XXX instead of these ported subs. It will still be a large box, but you will get a very low distortion driver for your costs.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
To keep vent velocity out of the audible range you need to try and keep it below 17m/s with your rated or expected RMS input power. There are some things to keep in mind here too such as TLS Guy suggests, that some driver's T/S Parameters simply don't align well with vented enclosures. In my mind, if the vented enclosure is over 8-10ft^3 it is not likely a good alignment, even if it is a larger driver.
 
R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
Settled on two IXL-18MK2's (for now) sealed. Went the alarmist route and designed the enclosure to fit two well in my space, so at a later date I may (will) add another pair. Woods being cut, drivers should be ready Friday, hopefully will have everything in hand and start assembling on saturday. I foresee a movie marathon on Monday (holiday). :D
 
R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
Build 90% complete! In use already, still deciding how to finish the exterior.

Will get some pics and build details up Tuesday night. So far... I'm very impressed. But two more are still in the cards. :D
 
R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
I didn't take nearly as many pictures as I should have of the build process (was to go go go to spend the time taking pics), but there's a few here, and it's still not complete so more will come eventually.

First two are the renders out of Sketchup (will supply the project file if anyone wants it). I had all the wood cut for me, since I don't have an appropriate table to cut it with (nor the patience to do a good job with clamps and guides). I wound up having them cut the driver knockouts too, since they seemed like a competent shop, even though I did have my router and the jig to do it set up already.

All 3/4" (19mm) full weight MDF stock, glued and air nailed. External dimensions are 66" wide, 21 1/2" deep, 22" tall.

As you can see, it's single layer bottom, back, and sides. Two layers on the front, and two layers on the top. The sides and front are braced with battens that were glued and nailed into place from both planes they met. The rear is braced with panels that run the full height of the enclosure, and 1/2 the depth, spaced evenly. More extensive bracing surely wouldn't hurt, but I decided that this was a reasonable amount that didn't eat up too much volume, and still provided (what I consider) adequate bracing to prevent resonance/flexing. I opted to place each driver in a separate enclosure for a few reasons: it prevents a failure of one connection, amplifier channel, or driver, from destroying the other driver; it reduces the length of the chamber, keeping any possible resonances to a minimum; lastly it provides a good brace in what is a long enclosure. The top extends out past the enclosure with the intent of building a removable grill down the length.

I began by pain stakingly marking out all the edges where boards meet, and on the reverse of each board, lines centered on all the nail areas. Doing this ahead of time was definitely the right thing to do, I had almost no fit issues, and only one nail that strayed (and I used a lot believe me). I built the internal structures on the back wall first (the four braces and the centre board), then top, bottom, front and finally end panels. After it was well cured, I layed down a small bead of glue along all the joints to ensure a good seal.

I haven't yet added the second layer top and front panels, as I'm still deciding how I want to finish the enclosure.

Once all the glue had dried, I knocked out a hole for a Neutrik Speakon 4 pole twist lock connector, and a small hole to run the the cable from one cabinet to the other. I used painters tape to mask the cut edges of the driver knockouts, and the length of the wiring, then went to down with three rattle cans of rustoleum spray in bed liner. The picture (in the next post) is after the first coat was applied. Getting an even coat took a lot of work, and a flashlight (because everything looks black inside there without a camera flash). 36 hours of cure time later, I was ready to mount the drivers and do a test run. I opted to use t-nuts and machine screws (M6 Allen head bolts to be exact) to mount the drivers, but the screw's shoulders were too long.. whoops. Mangled up some collars to let me mount the drivers in (goofily) to do a test run. First run, no leaks (I'd hope not after all that glue and spray in). Until I pick up a wall mount for my tv, the enclosure will be standing on end.

Mach5 Audio IXL-18mk2 Sealed x 2.jpgMach5 Audio IXL-18mk2 Sealed x 2-top.jpgDSCF0323.jpgDSCF0324.jpg
 
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R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
DSCF0335.jpgDSCF0336.jpgDSCF0327.jpgDSCF0332.jpgDSCF0334.jpg

Now I'm experimenting with tuning the setup with the Behringer nu6000dsp's equalizer. I've opted to model the filters in WinISD (alpha), then replicate them on the Behringer.

So Far I've come up with a couple different tunes:
-General Use tune: flat to 20hz, -3@14.8Hz, power limiter @ 750w/channel, keeps the excursion in check unless I want to play sine waves at 14 hz.
-Rock bottom tune: flat to 15hz, -3@8.5hz, power limiter at 650w/channel

Now that I have a theoretically flat response (according to WinISD) I'm experimenting with audiolense to flatten the in room response and trim the gain more accurately. Due to the dimensions of my room I know I have reflections at 29hz, 91hz, and to a lesser degree 46hz, along with their respective harmonics that need to be tamed.

Quickly stepped through a couple of intense movie scenes, U-571's depth charges, and Titan AE's.. well.. pretty much everything in this movie (damn near non-stop gutteral rumble). Pushing well past reference, and with the lfe definitely hot, the power limiter blinked on periodically, but not that often considering the damn near apocalypse that was happening on the floor above my home theatre.

RIP porcelain pepper shaker squirrel. Cause of death, audio assisted suicide.
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
AFAIK you can't use winISD to tell you if you have a flat response or not. Programs like winISD and Bassbox Pro only tell you what the driver and box will do anechoically and as long as the box is perfect. You have to actually measure it to see if you are getting any box resonances and to see how what things are doing in room and where you need to apply boost and cut. As sealed boxes they'll need a 12db/oct boost starting at the roll off point minimum. Once you have measurements you will know where your in room roll off point is and therefore where to apply the boost. If you boost it at the theoretical roll off point you may be creating an area that is running hot.
 
R

Richard Barr

Audiophyte
AFAIK you can't use winISD to tell you if you have a flat response or not. Programs like winISD and Bassbox Pro only tell you what the driver and box will do anechoically and as long as the box is perfect. You have to actually measure it to see if you are getting any box resonances and to see how what things are doing in room and where you need to apply boost and cut. As sealed boxes they'll need a 12db/oct boost starting at the roll off point minimum. Once you have measurements you will know where your in room roll off point is and therefore where to apply the boost. If you boost it at the theoretical roll off point you may be creating an area that is running hot.
experimenting with audiolense to flatten the in room response and trim the gain more accurately
I see you like to repeat yourself, ignore the content of the post you're replying to, and assume everyone else is an idiot, but this is a bit silly.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I see you like to repeat yourself, ignore the content of the post you're replying to, and assume everyone else is an idiot, but this is a bit silly.
I did nothing of the sort, I just happened to miss you saying that. No need to get douchey. This is the last I'll post in your thread.
 
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