I need a GREAT 2 channel power amp! What is great? Or two monoblocks...?

[Gordonj]

Well, of course, no one is saying you should abuse your speakers because the amp has a Peak Limiter. It is there to help. If your speakers are rated for 110, you should NOT try to play 130dB. Period.

If your towers are rated for 110dB, and you play no louder than 90dB, you will be just fine even if you have a 1000wpc amp.

It is more dangerous to have less power (clipping) than to have more power in a passive speaker.

But in general, I think more people recommend using the Peak Limiter than not.

I would change the conversation from overall dB to wattage. Since room loading and such can skew what you speakers are putting out or are taking in. If dealing in wattage then it is cut and dry. Such as, "they can take 200watts AES program and I am driving them at 150watts with peaks to 200watts.." etc.

And yes indeedy, so worse to have less power clipping then more power not used and the system not clipping = headroom, and headroom is a good thing. The whole system runs so much better and sounds better with headroom.

Now back to that subwoofer over powered thing, seriously, that could be extreme fun there!

Gordon

 

[Gordonj]

Uh...uh...forget-it.....too late. I ain't going for-it. Homey don't play dat.

I don't trust that limiter so much all of the sudden.

775watts is all they're gittin!

This all reminds me of many years ago (like 20) this guy would bring us 12 JBL 2240 18" LF drivers about every other week to be re-coned. They were good drivers, could take a bunch, good excursion, take 800 to 100 watts, etc.

About the third time he came in we asked "uhm, sir, is there a problem? Whats with the blown speakers every other week?".

It turned out that he ran sound for a go-go band that on the last song of the night they shot of flash-pots. The flash-pots were on the stage....
When they would go off the sound would run through the entire system and leave the peak limiters standing still and blow out all of his sub cabinets. It happened so often that he had two complete sets of drivers and he just rotated them out as the other set was gettign re-coned.

Sooo, ADK, i was thinking....

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This all reminds me of many years ago (like 20) this guy would bring us 12 JBL 2240 18" LF drivers about every other week to be re-coned. They were good drivers, could take a bunch, good excursion, take 800 to 100 watts, etc.

About the third time he came in we asked "uhm, sir, is there a problem? Whats with the blown speakers every other week?".

It turned out that he ran sound for a go-go band that on the last song of the night they shot of flash-pots. The flash-pots were on the stage....
When they would go off the sound would run through the entire system and leave the peak limiters standing still and blow out all of his sub cabinets. It happened so often that he had two complete sets of drivers and he just rotated them out as the other set was gettign re-coned.

Sooo, ADK, i was thinking....

Gordon

Well.......1st of all, my system will never get that loud.....no microphones, no karaoke, and no flash pots.

2nd, I think the amp limiter of 2012 is a little bit more advanced than 20 yrs ago.

In fact, practically all sub amps have limiters to protect the woofers.

 

[walter duque]

So.....some think clipping due to inadequate power can damage the tweeters, and some don't think it can.

Everyone agrees that too much power is bad.

And everyone agrees that if you keep the volume down, you will be just fine.

Somehow, I don't think I want to give my Funk Audio 18.0 subs 2400watts of power.

I think that Funk 18.0 can take a hell of a lot more than 775 watts. My small sub which is a 12" with a passive radiator takes the 1000 watt amp with ease set at 1 o'clock, that's tops.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that Funk 18.0 can take a hell of a lot more than 775 watts. My small sub which is a 12" with a passive radiator takes the 1000 watt amp with ease set at 1 o'clock, that's tops.

I'm pretty sure Nathan Funk recommends at least 1000watts per sub.

2400watts is recommended for maximum performance.

 

[walter duque]

I'm pretty sure Nathan Funk recommends at least 1000watts per sub.

2400watts is recommended for maximum performance.

I think your 775 watts equals or surpasses a plate amp anyway. Some some reason I don't even trust their max. power ratings.
this Keiga 52100 Subwoofer Amplifier is the newer version of my amp. Even the older version which I have has been used by a few companies and they are claiming it puts out 1300 watts. So I think your 775 watts are hell of a lot better than my 1000 watts. What do you think?

 

[Gordonj]

In fact, practically all sub amps have limiters to protect the woofers.

Uhm, maybe active subs, so when you drive them beyond their capabilities they don't kill themselves...

 

[moves]

Well, of course, no one is saying you should abuse your speakers because the amp has a Peak Limiter. It is there to help. If your speakers are rated for 110, you should NOT try to play 130dB. Period.

If your towers are rated for 110dB, and you play no louder than 90dB, you will be just fine even if you have a 1000wpc amp.

It is more dangerous to have less power (clipping) than to have more power in a passive speaker.

But in general, I think more people recommend using the Peak Limiter than not.

They had 1000 watt monoblocks hooked up to my Totem Forests at the store and they were fine.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think your 775 watts equals or surpasses a plate amp anyway. Some some reason I don't even trust their max. power ratings.
this Keiga 52100 Subwoofer Amplifier is the newer version of my amp. Even the older version which I have has been used by a few companies and they are claiming it puts out 1300 watts. So I think your 775 watts are hell of a lot better than my 1000 watts. What do you think?

I know what you mean. How many magazines take out a plate amp from a sub to measure anyway?

And when they say "1000 Watts" or "2000 Watts", most of them don't even specify whether it is RMS, peak, dynamic, 2ohm, 4ohm, 8ohm, etc. They just say "2000watts".

No regulations whatsoever.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it though.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it though.

That's all we need, a sleep deprived response

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Uhm, maybe active subs, so when you drive them beyond their capabilities they don't kill themselves...

I think it's more critical/ risky to overpower an active system than a passive one. In a passive system, probably a lot of that "1000watts" is being wasted. In an active system, not much power is wasted, so the drivers are more at risk.

That is why Siegfried Linkwitz used to recommend only 60wpc for each of the (active) Orion driver. I think he recommends at most 180wpc.

But anyway, if it's cool to use limiters on active subs, I think it's also cool to use limiters on passive speakers.

 

[GranteedEV]

In a passive system, probably a lot of that "1000watts" is being wasted.

Only in the upper bands. Just about no passive systems will have resistive attenuation in the bass where power demands are high.

In an active system, not much power is wasted, so the drivers are more at risk.

Eh.. I don't think so, although i'll point out that active systems can accidentally destroy tweeters etc with DC thumps etc, whereas a capacitor will protect the tweeter in the same scenario.

That is why Siegfried Linkwitz used to recommend only 60wpc for each of the (active) Orion driver.

The Orions are a unique case for two reasons; it's not really a matter of being active (although they "can't" be passive by design)

1) They are in free air, with no box to reduce driver motion. Only the driver's own suspension complaince will dictate this.
2) They have a gradient rolloff of 6db/oct starting at a frequency indicated by the baffle width.

What does that mean?

If a regular speaker is moving enough to produce 100db @ 50hz, the Orions may only be producing ~82-83db acoustically from the same motion due to dipole cancellation. Even more significant a difference at 30hz.

If a regular speaker can only physically move enough to produce 90db at 50hz, the orions in free air may be allowed to move enough to produce 100db at 50hz. Even more significant at 30hz.

So being dipolar,

That is why Linkwitz suggests the use of subwoofers below 50hz.

Compare that to the Salon2s, where you have both pressure loading from the box, and also a resistive vent reducing driver motion near tuning.

If you run a 20hz through the Salon2s, they might just move less than a 40hz tone at the same SPL. It has nothing to do with being passive or not.

I think he recommends at most 180wpc.

The Seas L26 woofers have more throw than the old Peerless woofers in your Orions.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is why Linkwitz suggests the use of subwoofers below 50hz.

Yeah, I notice that. I better change my XO from 80Hz to 60Hz, since I don't think 50Hz is a choice.

 

[GranteedEV]

Yeah, I notice that. I better change my XO from 80Hz to 60Hz, since I don't think 50Hz is a choice.

80hz is fine too. Really depends what measures best.

 

[Gordonj]

80hz is fine too. Really depends what measures best.

Indeed 80 should be just fine. It would also allow you to blend the two together nicely without asking too much reach from either box.

Gordon

 

[Gordonj]

I think it's more critical/ risky to overpower an active system than a passive one. In a passive system, probably a lot of that "1000watts" is being wasted. In an active system, not much power is wasted, so the drivers are more at risk.

That is why Siegfried Linkwitz used to recommend only 60wpc for each of the (active) Orion driver. I think he recommends at most 180wpc.

But anyway, if it's cool to use limiters on active subs, I think it's also cool to use limiters on passive speakers.

ADK I'm going to be completely stupid here ( now be nice ) tell me your definition of active vs. passive speakers in how you are using the definitions above. Because I'm thinking my world may have a different use of the terms...

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADK I'm going to be completely stupid here ( now be nice ) tell me your definition of active vs. passive speakers in how you are using the definitions above. Because I'm thinking my world may have a different use of the terms...

Gordon

Active means the crossover comes before the amplifier. The crossover tells each amp to power each driver. Like in the Orion, the XO tells one 60watts amp to drive the the tweeters, one 60watts amp to drive the midrange, and two 60watts amps to drive the 2 woofers.

In a passive speaker, the crossover comes after the amp. Essentially one amp powers all the drivers, even when they are tri-wired. Even if you tri-amp the passive speaker, most of the power still goes to the woofer. The XO directs the power to each driver, but most of that power goes to the woofers.

That's my world.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Active means the crossover comes before the amplifier. The crossover tells each amp to power each driver. Like in the Orion, the XO tells one 60watts amp to drive the the tweeters, one 60watts amp to drive the midrange, and two 60watts amps to drive the 2 woofers.

In a passive speaker, the crossover comes after the amp. Essentially one amp powers all the drivers, even when they are tri-wired. Even if you tri-amp the passive speaker, most of the power still goes to the woofer. The XO directs the power to each driver, but most of that power goes to the woofers.

That's my world.

What you're describing is an active crossover. An active speaker means that the amplifier is integrated into the speaker itself.

 

[GranteedEV]

No, that would be a powered speaker, which can use a passive crossover or an active crossover.

There is no difference between an active speaker and an active crossover - they are one and the same.

 

[Irvrobinson]

There is no difference between an active speaker and an active crossover - they are one and the same.

Excuse me? One is a crossover and one is a speaker. For example, this is an active crossover:

Bryston Limited: 10B-STD Electronic Crossover

It is active in that the circuitry is powered and capable of gain.

An active speaker, actually an active anything, is active because it has powered rather than passive circuits.

An Orion is a passive speaker with an active crossover. An ATC is an active speaker, and it happens to include an active crossover, but there are active speakers that don't include an active crossover; they run a single driver full-range. (A bass amp is an example.)