I guess I'll never be a "true" audiophile

[ski2xblack]

...to enjoy the music as much as possible.

Well, there you have it. If you enjoy listening to music more than shopping, chances are you will never be a true audiophile.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Enjoy the music, not the speakers. I have effectively two systems (see sig for details) Both are very much considered budget and both sound great, but I usually use headphones
Also at 55 you probably should get a hearing check, I'm a bit younger but I definitely have some hearing loss.

In my experience to tell good from great speakers - you'd have to listen to them side by side and still hard to notice the difference. Don't worry about audiophile nonsense. If you like your system, and how it sounds - that's it.

 

[noob0804]

As a somewhat related follow up. I had an Akai bookshelf system from the 90s with blown speaker surrounds and last year I bought the now discontinued Dayton MK402x bookshelf speakers to replace the originals. Then the Akai broke and I got rid of it and put the speakers away in a closet. The speakers are the smaller siblings to my MK442 towers. One day I was bored and just for kicks I connected them as B speakers to my Yamaha receiver to see how the sound was different between the towers and the bookshelves with matching drivers. Of course the towers sound fuller by themselves, tons more bass and better overall. Then I placed the bookshelves next to the towers but pointing outwards and turned on both A and B speakers... The sound blew me away and surprised me. I know there has to be a scientific explanation, but the bass is now deeper, the mids are what I can only describe as fatter, more realistic; I don't really hear much of a difference in the top end, and the soundstage is much wider. I have to admit it looks funny having the towers next to bookshelf speakers on stands, but again, I really like what these small speakers added to the sound. Has anyone done an experiment like this? I'd be really interested to hear an expert opinion. Thanks in advance.

 

[Teetertotter?]

I remember in 1965, when stationed in Okinawa with the USAF, I bought an Akai reel to reel portable unit. A fellow in the same barracks, down the hall, had a nice turntable. Remember Herb Albert and Ray Conniff, Elvis..etc? We would get together and do some recording. I had a shelf above my head, to store the recorder, with built in speakers, and listen to music to fall asleep. My roommate worked 3rd shift in Supply.

Today, with my equipment listed below, I listen to all kinds of internet music at bedtime. My Denon AVR works perfectly with, "Virtual," setting. Piano Music never sounded better along with Symphany. You can throw in pop and 60's, too. But.....I'm mostly watching DD movies. lol

 

[ski2xblack]

Has anyone done an experiment like this?

What you described above undoubtedly sounds different, certainly more full and rich with the extra driver's output added in, but it's also a recipe for a mess of comb filtering. Its sort of a Bose-ish thing you're hearing, with more sound bouncing around the room.

You know what? I think I was wrong upthread. There IS hope for you as a "true audiophile."

Since you're experimenting with both pairs of speakers and having some fun with it, I have a suggestion, a trick ALL the kewl audiophile kids were messing around with back in the 1970's when hifi was still sexy. You have everything you need to try it, and it's totally groovy, baby! Are you ready to take a walk on the wild side?

Ok, this is what you do. Do it with the amp off, of course. Step one: reverse the polarity (swap pos and neg speaker wire connections) on one (but only one) of the flanking bookshelf speakers. It doesn't matter if it's the left or right, but only do it on one of the bookshelves. Step 2: on the amp's 'B speaker' terminals feeding the bookshelves, remove the negative wires. Leave the positive wires connected to the amp. Step 3: take those loose negative wires and connect them to each other. You're done.

So you're probably wondering "what in the H-E-double-L did I just do? Will this cause my amp to blow up? WTAF??!?"

No, your amp won't blow up. What you did was create a crude Hafler array. And wtaf did that accomplish? It sends a L-minus-R 'difference' signal to the bookshelves, which is anything in the stereo signal that deviates from the center image in the mix. The further a sound is panned to the left or the right in the mix, the more it will be reproduced by the bookshelf speakers. The extracted signal to the bookshelves, composed of the ambient, phasey part of the mix, is indeed a monaural signal, which is why the bookshelves are wired out of phase relative to each other, for that spacey, disembodied non-localizable effect.

If you leave the bookshelves where they currently are, adjacent to the towers, you have essentially replicated the approach employed by Polk in their fancy-schmancy SDA jobs. People pay big bucks for those, but you get to experience the SDA trickery for free!

Alternately, you could move the bookshelf speakers to widely flank your mlp, or slightly behind it, which is what David Hafler had in mind with this craziness, for that proto-surround effect.

Only after doing all that will you be a true audiophile.

 

[Trebdp83]

 

[highfigh]

I'm not even sure this is remotely interesting for the Audioholic community, but here it goes:
In the past couple of years I put together a budget conscious 2.0 system for my home office (roughly 13'x14' with 9'-8" ceiling. I have doors in 2 corners and a wall with floor to ceiling windows.
The system is composed of a Yamaha S-202 basic stereo receiver, an Oppo 980H DVD player that I bought new in 2003 and I use for CDs, SACDs, and DVD-A, and a Wiim Pro for streaming Amazon Music up to ultra HD, FLAC files stored in my NAS, and also as a DAC for CDs and DVD-A since the Wiim doesn't support DSD. My speakers are Dayton MK442 (Audioholics 2019 budget speaker of the year), and for architectural and spousal reasons I can't accommodate a subwoofer in the room.
My question/issue is: I absolutely love the damn thing! So much that I don't see myself justifying upgrades for years to come. I'm incredibly happy with it, but I read so many reviews about much better equipment. Does that mean I'll never have "golden ears" or that I'll never be able to hear the difference between what I have at home and what is possible with a few thousand? I'm 55, which is relevant because by now I've lost some high frequency hearing. I listen to classical, rock, some jazz, and some experimental music. I have attended countless classical music concerts in my life since my childhood, I know how it's supposed to sound. The system can go more than loud enough for me, the bass goes very deep in the room, and I can't hear any sign of strain from the receiver or the speakers. Actually I can't tell the difference between high resolution and ultra high resolution music. I can, but barely, tell the difference between a high bitrate mp3 and a FLAC.
Did I peak in terms of my ability to discern sound quality? Should I forget about audio Nirvana and never come back to Audioholics? . This is a little tongue in cheek, but I'd love to hear some opinions. Thanks!

If you love the way it sounds, you're done looking. Constantly worrying about whether it's the best, good, good enough or "Will people laugh at me?" is no way to go through life and it's just neurosis. I don't now how anyone can ENJOY THE MUSIC if they're constantly thinking about the equipment.

Come for the conversations, stay for whatever you want.

 

[highfigh]

This is not a reply, more like an associated statement.
Last night I was listening to a recording of J.S. Bach organ music performed by Karl Richter somewhat loud and I heard for the first time an artifact coming from my speakers. It wasn't even during a loud deep bass passage, but I definitely heard a distracting vibration that I'm sure is not in the recording. I rewound the passage and there it was again. I was streaming an HD Deutsche Grammophon recording from Amazon music plus, and my streamer is connected via an Ethernet cable, so it's a high quality recording, I'm not asking for solutions, just sad.
It didn't occur to me to write down the track name, number, and time. It's a very long recording originally in several CDs, so it'll be impossible to find the passage again.
All this to say that I'm not tempted to upgrade speakers just yet, I'll just live with this artifact if I ever encounter something like it again.

Pipe organ bass pedals are as good a test as you can give to an audio system- if the notes aren't rattling your polyps, they can cause things to vibrate, whether in the speakers or the room and then, a system without a subwoofer can experience modulation in the driver(s) that reproduce the lowest notes AND midbass/midrange. If someone were to remove the lowest frequencies from the main speakers and let the sub(s) handle that, the rest of the system can relax and have a cup of coffee. I heard this in my system when I played some music from the large pipe organ in Atlantic City.

 

[Happy Joe]

If you like it listen to it until age makes it, or you fall apart...
This EPI 100 only took my abuse for 50 years, or so... The tweeter fell to pieces in my hand on grill removal...
Debating on whether to resurrect it or not...

...Wish they still made these (I can still get parts or a custom built one...)

Enjoy!

 

[noob0804]

What you described above undoubtedly sounds different, certainly more full and rich with the extra driver's output added in, but it's also a recipe for a mess of comb filtering. Its sort of a Bose-ish thing you're hearing, with more sound bouncing around the room.

You know what? I think I was wrong upthread. There IS hope for you as a "true audiophile."

Since you're experimenting with both pairs of speakers and having some fun with it, I have a suggestion, a trick ALL the kewl audiophile kids were messing around with back in the 1970's when hifi was still sexy. You have everything you need to try it, and it's totally groovy, baby! Are you ready to take a walk on the wild side?

Ok, this is what you do. Do it with the amp off, of course. Step one: reverse the polarity (swap pos and neg speaker wire connections) on one (but only one) of the flanking bookshelf speakers. It doesn't matter if it's the left or right, but only do it on one of the bookshelves. Step 2: on the amp's 'B speaker' terminals feeding the bookshelves, remove the negative wires. Leave the positive wires connected to the amp. Step 3: take those loose negative wires and connect them to each other. You're done.

So you're probably wondering "what in the H-E-double-L did I just do? Will this cause my amp to blow up? WTAF??!?"

No, your amp won't blow up. What you did was create a crude Hafler array. And wtaf did that accomplish? It sends a L-minus-R 'difference' signal to the bookshelves, which is anything in the stereo signal that deviates from the center image in the mix. The further a sound is panned to the left or the right in the mix, the more it will be reproduced by the bookshelf speakers. The extracted signal to the bookshelves, composed of the ambient, phasey part of the mix, is indeed a monaural signal, which is why the bookshelves are wired out of phase relative to each other, for that spacey, disembodied non-localizable effect.

If you leave the bookshelves where they currently are, adjacent to the towers, you have essentially replicated the approach employed by Polk in their fancy-schmancy SDA jobs. People pay big bucks for those, but you get to experience the SDA trickery for free!

Alternately, you could move the bookshelf speakers to widely flank your mlp, or slightly behind it, which is what David Hafler had in mind with this craziness, for that proto-surround effect.

Only after doing all that will you be a true audiophile.

Are you really not joking? I'm not sure I want to try that.

 

[ski2xblack]

I was joking, yes, but that's the way to really do it if you get a wild hair.

 

[noob0804]

If you leave the bookshelves where they currently are, adjacent to the towers, you have essentially replicated the approach employed by Polk in their fancy-schmancy SDA jobs. People pay big bucks for those, but you get to experience the SDA trickery for free!

I did a little bit of research on the Hafler array and the Polk SDA. I'm glad I took the advise. It's indeed a lot of fun. Thanks!
First I played a SACD of Shostakovich 11th symphony by the London Symphony Orchestra and then Steven Wilson's Insurgentes album on DVD-A. The ghost center, surprisingly, is better in the SW record and the dynamic range of the LSO recording is fantastic. The soundstage on both is very wide. Because of the architecture and furnishing of my home office I can't move the bookshelf pair pretty much anywhere but the front wall. Probably going back to the regular hookup, but still lots of fun!

 

[Bobby Bass]

If You believe you aren’t or you are - you’re right. Trust your ears. Forget about FOMO and enjoy your music.

 

[Wardog555]

for architectural and spousal reasons I can't accommodate a subwoofer in the room

Incorrect.
What is correct is your inappropriate refusal to accept one in the room.

There's a difference here.

 

[Happy Joe]

IMO; the term "Audiophile" refers to audio appreciation and has little to do with being a shopaholic or trying to maintain a Bleeding edge system... trying to keep ahead of technology is futile in the long run.

Build something that sounds good to you then appreciate it...while it lasts.

I normally up grade when components fail.

Upgraded around 2003 from 4 EPI 100s, in two stacks, powered by a Technics 5 channel, 100watt/ch, receiver & etc. to 2 NHT 2.5I speakers still powered by the Technics along with 2 of the EPI 100speakers for rears and the same old (JBL?) powered sub. (The above picture is the remains of the EPI that died the other three, which still work, are, now, retired to long term storage).

The NHTs lasted until last year (might have been 18 months ago) they were blown by a poorly conceived and implemented room equalization program... which also freaked the cat out for a couple of days.

Looked for replacements; then last fall, upgraded to a Denon 3800h avr powering some Polk r700 fronts with a crown power amp (added last month) to give some them some over head and relieve the strain on the Denon's power supply. A couple of Klipsch tower speakers, that were unacceptable as replacement fronts, are used as rears, with some thin Polk centers serving as surround left and rights (because they fit the furniture arrangement). The sound, to my aging ears is, pretty much; adequate...

With a bit of luck this setup will outlast me...

Enjoy!

 

[noob0804]

Incorrect.
What is correct is your inappropriate refusal to accept one in the room.

There's a difference here.

Are you saying that it's incorrect not putting a subwoofer in my room? I really don't have the option . It's a home office, so the furniture layout is very important the way it is. Two of the corners have doors, the other two have desks. I have hardwood floors, so no hiding cable under the carpet. My speakers go deep enough in the room so I don't miss more bass. It's a music-only system that I use for classical music,so I don't need subsonic bass, I rarely listen to organ music, which is really the only instrument that would need a deeper response.
I'm very happy with a 2.0 system.

 

[Kingnoob]

I'm not even sure this is remotely interesting for the Audioholic community, but here it goes:
In the past couple of years I put together a budget conscious 2.0 system for my home office (roughly 13'x14' with 9'-8" ceiling. I have doors in 2 corners and a wall with floor to ceiling windows.
The system is composed of a Yamaha S-202 basic stereo receiver, an Oppo 980H DVD player that I bought new in 2003 and I use for CDs, SACDs, and DVD-A, and a Wiim Pro for streaming Amazon Music up to ultra HD, FLAC files stored in my NAS, and also as a DAC for CDs and DVD-A since the Wiim doesn't support DSD. My speakers are Dayton MK442 (Audioholics 2019 budget speaker of the year), and for architectural and spousal reasons I can't accommodate a subwoofer in the room.
My question/issue is: I absolutely love the damn thing! So much that I don't see myself justifying upgrades for years to come. I'm incredibly happy with it, but I read so many reviews about much better equipment. Does that mean I'll never have "golden ears" or that I'll never be able to hear the difference between what I have at home and what is possible with a few thousand? I'm 55, which is relevant because by now I've lost some high frequency hearing. I listen to classical, rock, some jazz, and some experimental music. I have attended countless classical music concerts in my life since my childhood, I know how it's supposed to sound. The system can go more than loud enough for me, the bass goes very deep in the room, and I can't hear any sign of strain from the receiver or the speakers. Actually I can't tell the difference between high resolution and ultra high resolution music. I can, but barely, tell the difference between a high bitrate mp3 and a FLAC.
Did I peak in terms of my ability to discern sound quality? Should I forget about audio Nirvana and never come back to Audioholics? . This is a little tongue in cheek, but I'd love to hear some opinions. Thanks!

I’m happy with my cheap system . $800 for my fronts $300 for surrounds which are pretty useless in my room and $800 for avr. Not sure what these subs costed like $180. my $600 sub is stranded in a bedroom I never use it. You don’t have to spend a fortune to like your system.

 

[Wardog555]

Are you saying that it's incorrect not putting a subwoofer in my room? I really don't have the option . It's a home office, so the furniture layout is very important the way it is. Two of the corners have doors, the other two have desks. I have hardwood floors, so no hiding cable under the carpet. My speakers go deep enough in the room so I don't miss more bass. It's a music-only system that I use for classical music,so I don't need subsonic bass, I rarely listen to organ music, which is really the only instrument that would need a deeper response.
I'm very happy with a 2.0 system.

What I'm saying it's false to make the claim of I can't do this. Won't do that.

How do you fit a chair. Couch. Tv all this other equipment and furniture in the room and not a subwoofer?

It's a myth.

 

[Kingnoob]

What I'm saying it's false to make the claim of I can't do this. Won't do that.

How do you fit a chair. Couch. Tv all this other equipment and furniture in the room and not a subwoofer?

It's a myth.

My rooms tiny 13x14 and I’m using two cheap 10” subs. My towers suck for bass. I’m sure op can fit one .

 

[noob0804]

I didn't think I'd get this kind of grief from a simple statement.
My speakers don't suck for bass. They go deep enough for the music I prefer. I like having a 2.0 system, I like it a lot. Maybe "can't fit a subwoofer" doesn't apply from the strictly physical space standpoint, but putting one in the space would not look good in my home office. My wife and I are architects and interior designers, therefore our home is our showroom. I already have a bookshelf in the room where the components sit, flanked by the towers, which are flanked by 2 doors. I also have a chais lounge in the center, and 2 workstations across the room. A sub would look inappropriate anywhere except in the opposite corners, but that's where the CPUs are located for the workstations because between the workstations there's a cabinet... Maybe if you're not a designer you can't quite visualize the room, but there's a big reason why I chose a 2.0 system with towers instead of a 2.1 with bookshelf speakers and a sub. These personal and professional reasons supercede the "need" for a sub, therefore I CAN'T have one in the room. I hope this is clear. If anyone has more opinions on why I should or could have one if I really wanted it, please refrain and keep it to yourselves.
The title of the thread is "I guess I'll never be a true audiophile". I'm realizing that in addition of loving my budget system and not pining for upgrades as I stated in the first post, another reason is because I prefer not having a sub that would diminish the room aesthetics over deeper bass that I don't think I need.