I Don’t Understand This Forum...

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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Honestly I value both sets of our members and ideologies from both viewpoints.
I value our members who have high end equipment I could never afford but also have a lot of experience and insight based on a lot of that decision making I'd never attain on my own

But I also value the members who take measurements look for great value in audio and help you squeeze the most out of a specific budget.

I really enjoy both mindsets and knowledge base and hopefully we can dialogue from these different perspectives learn from each other and within reason all of us get along
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I spent a lot of my life on a tight budget, so I understand the situation. I'm not advocating everyone buy expensive equipment; not at all. What I do have an issue with is the attitude I see a lot on this forum that if it's expensive it's dumb. Sometimes it is, but not always, and especially not when chosen wisely.
Irv,
I have spent most of my life on a very tight budget for extras like audio so I get the value orientation. I also don't advocate expensive equipment, but, love the fact that it exists. I will probably not invest in it simply because I have made it this far without it and I really, really enjoy what I have. But, knowing that really expensive stuff exists makes me happy just to know "I could".

Well the founder is this forum tends to lean towards the objectivist side.

Audigon types are the extreme subjectivists, the type that will pay $4,000 for speaker cables.
So, you think Gene leans towards objectivity? There's the understatement of the day. I joined the AH, and I keep coming back, because it is based in science and measurement not fluff n stuff. Everyone makes choices based on personal preference and some emotional nonsense. But, those choices can still be well informed and backed up beforehand with good science and measurement. That's what makes this place work.

I will say this, again, your original post was almost searching for the dark side of this forum. All of your arguments are going to get you nowhere.
I read the original post, a marathon post, and think the same thing. That post was a provocative post pretty much designed to get a negative response. The Ah brethren didn't respond in much of a negative fashion however and I thought did a pretty nice job of keeping the thread out of the mud. I must say I don't grasp fully why the OP went on that bit of a rant, but, I liked the general level of the AH responses. Anytime somebody comes in boasting and braggin about spending a lot of money, it kinda turns me sour.

@Pogre , so you're an SVS fanboy? Who Knew ? Ha ! You got 13 feet of awesomeness in your living room.
If I had 13 feet of awesomeness, I would be a fanboy too! Oh wait, I am a fanboy. A Salk fanboy. I think the OP insulted those too as being internet kooks.
Just in case, here's 13 feet of SVS awesomeness NOT POSTED by an SVS fanboy. I'm a Salk fanboy.
Pogres 13 feet of audio.jpg
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
@Pogre , so you're an SVS fanboy? Who Knew ? Ha ! You got 13 feet of awesomeness in your living room.
If I had 13 feet of awesomeness, I would be a fanboy too! Oh wait, I am a fanboy. A Salk fanboy. I think the OP insulted those too as being internet kooks.
Just in case, here's 13 feet of SVS awesomeness NOT POSTED by an SVS fanboy.
View attachment 30590
Just for the record, you're gonna have to make allowances for the Hsu subs in all of that SVS awesomeness!

And further for the record, I think the jury is still out on both of you regarding being internet kooks!:p;)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
When it gives you a boner.
I'd give you a dumb rating, Alex, but you do make me laugh. You have the sense of humor of a middle-schooler.
Keep up with the times, Irv! The use of "bone" in the audio lexicon is trending!
I think it may have started with this quote from a German review of the Canton 876 loudspeaker (January 2017):
Even relatively close to the back wall she produced a bony, clean bass.
https://www.lowbeats.de/canton-vento-876-ueberragende-standbox-fuer-2-400-euro/
Ask @Danzilla31 , he is fully engorged in this trend!
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Honestly I value both sets of our members and ideologies from both viewpoints.
I value our members who have high end equipment I could never afford but also have a lot of experience and insight based on a lot of that decision making I'd never attain on my own

But I also value the members who take measurements look for great value in audio and help you squeeze the most out of a specific budget.

I really enjoy both mindsets and knowledge base and hopefully we can dialogue from these different perspectives learn from each other and within reason all of us get along
Why do you admire people that own expensive equipment that you can't afford if objective test measurements shows that some of their equipment doesn't measure any better than equipment costing much less, it makes no sense to me, even if you could afford it.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
So, you think Gene leans towards objectivity? There's the understatement of the day. I joined the AH, and I keep coming back, because it is based in science and measurement not fluff n stuff. Everyone makes choices based on personal preference and some emotional nonsense. But, those choices can still be well informed and backed up beforehand with good science and measurement. That's what makes this place work.

View attachment 30590
Yes Gene is, especially in comparison to the AVS forum. where Audiophoolery and Fanboyism is allowed to run amuck. I'm not saying he's an Arny Krueger or Tom Noussaine type of objectivist, but more than most.

On BTW, Gene and company are not a fans of your sub placement.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Why do you admire people that own expensive equipment that you can't afford if objective test measurements shows that some of their equipment doesn't measure any better than equipment costing much less, it makes no sense to me, even if you could afford it.
Because it is cool kit!

But to better answer your question, I'll quote a post I made in reference to the new Focal Aria speakers with Flax drivers:
By all accounts, they are a good sounding speaker for their cost, and the added allure of looking good cannot be underrated, IMHO! Listening to music is an emotional experience and having speakers that are attractive (beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but I think these are) just adds a bit more joy without our mind discriminating between the audio and visual influence - we just like them better!
For electronics, I find seeing/knowing a stack of big Mac mono-blocs with their blue dB meters exciting! That excitement gets me engaged in listening to music in a slightly better way than I would be without it...which in turn, makes the overall listening experience better! That said, I never expect to own something like Mac gear because of the expense. It is cool and if someone gave it to me, I would probably use it instead of flipping it. But my dad died when I was a freshman in college and I earned my way through college and I could never spend the money for Mac gear without having an awareness that I spent so much more money just to have amps that looked cool! For me, that regret would off-set the aforementioned excitement they present!

I don't know if you are less in tune with your emotional side or especially "Spock-like" (or if there is difference)!
The fact you are here leads me to believe you are passionate about sound and music!

I try my best to be honest with myself about this stuff! I assume you have a technical/science background so perhaps if you think about it in terms of us being biochemical sacks and recognize how our environment can cause releases of endorphins and recognize that the mix we have at any given moment will influence our perception. I suspect that there are muscles that we can engage when we listen that heighten our hearing (perhaps by stretching the ear canal or ear drum in a certain way). And then, there is the influences of these biochemicals on the pathway/connection between our ear drum and pleasure center which allows us to experience enjoyment from good music and even greater enjoyment when that music has high sound quality. The nice thing about buying expensive electronics is even though a "cool" Mac amp may measure worse than a fairly non-descript ATI amp, it is not going to make it sound audibly worse, and if I had my choice between the two (both free),I would choose the look/experience of the Macintosh gear over the inaudibly superior performance of the ATI. To do otherwise, would not be honest with myself! My only concern would regard reliability!

I am definitely a believer in measurements to best define the capabilities of gear.
For electronics, measurements is all I need!
For speakers, I definitely want to listen before I buy (unless I am buying on speculation).
But I do realize that as an imprecise, "non-repeatable" creature, I am an important variable in my ultimate realization of SQ!
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes Gene is, especially in comparison to the AVS forum. where Audiophoolery and Fanboyism is allowed to run amuck. I'm not saying he's an Arny Krueger or Tom Noussaine type of objectivist, but more than most.

On BTW, Gene and company are not a fans of your sub placement.
Those are my subs!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Why don't you have SVS subs? Man you're a traitor:)
One reason and one reason only. $$$. If I had the money you can bet I'd have a pair of PB16 Ultras up there! I'm very happy with the VTF 3 MK5's tho. They're legit good subs.

It's funny, I watched gene's video not too long ago on sub placement and thought the same thing. However, when I'm getting measurements like this.

10-07 spl 1-12th smooth.jpg
10-07 waterfall.jpg


I'm not gonna sweat it.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
One reason and one reason only. $$$. If I had the money you can bet I'd have a pair of PB16 Ultras up there! I'm very happy with the VTF 3 MK5's tho. They're legit good subs.

It's funny, I watched gene's video not too long ago on sub placement and thought the same thing. However, when I'm getting measurements like this.

View attachment 30594View attachment 30596

I'm not gonna sweat it.
I think he was referring to bukks near field sub.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Why do you admire people that own expensive equipment that you can't afford if objective test measurements shows that some of their equipment doesn't measure any better than equipment costing much less, it makes no sense to me, even if you could afford it.
Some of it does measure better. And some of it is just plain more effective or more satisfying to use. Measurements are important, but there's more to an equipment purchase than just measurements. For example, how about this DAC:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/

I know someone who bought one. $128. Measures competitively to more expensive stuff. He hated using it because of the tiny controls and lack of appropriate connector space on the rear, so he sent it back to Amazon. Sometimes spending more gets you more than competitive measurements.
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
One reason and one reason only. $$$. If I had the money you can bet I'd have a pair of PB16 Ultras up there! I'm very happy with the VTF 3 MK5's tho. They're legit good subs.

It's funny, I watched gene's video not too long ago on sub placement and thought the same thing. However, when I'm getting measurements like this.

View attachment 30594View attachment 30596

I'm not gonna sweat it.
You got lucky! Pretty good though.
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
I’m new to this forum. I just recently purchased an entirely new home theater and was looking for some advice on some aspects. Having spent most of life being relatively broke, i was showing off as i was proud of making such purchases. Not a single person I know in real life cares about such things. When you get something new, sometimes a little showing off isn’t bad. In a world without a little showing off, these forums would collapse.
I have spent a couple weeks reading posts here. A lot of us make these purchases and want to feel good about what we bought, beyond the joy of simply performance. You want to share your excitement and often those in our lives simply aren’t into audio video hardware. It’s a part of any forum. Here, from what I’ve seen, you make such posts at your peril. More times than not, you’ll be labeled a fanboy and shamed for having purchased X and told you wasted your money and should’ve bought X and we would’ve told you to buy X had you asked before purchase. I don’t see how this is constructive at all.
The next gen audiophiles believe in internet brands because they see the charts and trust them implicitly and like believing that cutting out the middleman means a better product for less money. Those preferring store brands are buying what they know and what sounds good to their ears. Each argues their point. To me, the internet brand supporters come on like members of a cult with the absolute belief that non believers are wrong and shall be shamed because they have charts/graphs which alone shall wisely dictate purchases. They will even invite you into their homes to share The Truth with their fellow man. Scientology anyone? Amway?
I read these threads and they make me cringe. Happily, my system is complete and I didn’t need that much advice anyways. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, has different tastes and hear things differently. Different aspects are important to different people. I take build quality into consideration far more than any chart. I lack the palate to discern a ‘57 Chateaux Margaux from ‘63 Chateau Petrus. I could only tell you what I liked.
Analogy Alert... I recently decided I wanted to buy an exotic car, a dream I’ve had since my youth. I went into this without a preference of ny specific car. I test drove them all over a 24hr period, beat day of my life. When it comes to “Supercars” the performance numbers are all within fractions of a second of each other. What kind of a lunatic would ever pick such a car based solely upon charts, graphs, and numbers? And never having driven one? No way. Speed, horsepower, torque, 0-60, 0-124, etc... once you get above a certain price point, they are all incredibly fast. Technologically, these are the best cars that have ever been made . You test drive the cars and pick the one that speaks to you. Even in this world, you will run into guys who will argue passionately that you made a mistake and that the car they love is the superior car and give you numbers which they feel should assist in proving to you that you made a mistake and your opinions are wrong. They truly can’t fathom how anyone could ever disagree and claim “you can’t argue numbers”. Ah, but you can. If you then respond and ask why do that to anyone? They will claim so that others won’t make the mistake of buying what they think is best. Hearing bitter arguments over OPINIONS... I just don’t get it. Buying an exotic car is no different than any other purchase. Buy what you like. However, if you come here expecting to find some kind of fellowship and support of your opinion... which is different, forget it. This is the wrong forum. If you want to share what you’ve bought and get berated for having the wrong opinions? This is where you should come, unless of course internet brands are your thing.
I LOVE exotic cars. They are beautiful, exciting, extreme, and insanely over the top. The engineering that goes into them is not to be believed. I go to car shows and gatherings to look at them. It’s fascinating to talk to others about this shared interest . I certainly have my favorites. At all the shows and all the gatherings, not once, not ever, has it, nor would it occur to me to tell someone they bought the wrong car, that X has a better power curve or 0-60 time. “Hey man, that’s a nice Bugatti, but if you were smart, you could’ve spent a fraction of what you paid and gotten a much faster car...” Arguing which car is best is insane. That would take a level of stupefying arrogance I simply don’t possess.
The only thing worse than being a “fanboy” is calling someone a “fanboy”.
It’s obvious, to my anyways, when someone is simply proud of their purchase. If you don’t like it just move on. Don’t use it as an opportunity to tell them that your opinions and priorities are better and then claim it’s “teaching”. You simply want what they want. To believe they made a good choice. If their choice was wrong? You believe your opinions are better?
Most of us don’t have the knowledge to argue performance numbers, for or against. And these numbers do not play a role in such a purchase, unless your ear contains a computer chip. What sounds better to you likely doesn’t to them. Using numbers to claim superiority doesn’t take anything into account beyond what a computer “hears”. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous at best.
It’s F’ing pathetic that I took the time to make this post, but I needed to vent. I’m assuming I’ll get torn a new one now, but c’est la vive. I’m good with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
The forum, for AH is owned by Gene, also the Owner of AH's website. Now there are people who hang out on this forum that are actually dealers of audio/video gear. Some build speakers to sell on the open market. Some are dealers of many brands of audio video gear. Three come to mind, DigitalDawn, Dennis, and ADTG. Now all though I haven't met any of the three I just mentioned. They are from what I have come to know, knowledgeable, have experience in using some of the gear they sell or like Dennis who builds speakers to sell. Now I can't say if he actually builds the drivers himself. But from the one's who have his speakers seem to like them a lot. Now I experienced the same thing you experienced when I first joined up on this forum. I had mentioned dampening factor, got smoked for it. I'm not a audio engineer not even close. I even called out a few who where umm.. using "bully tactics" so to speak. My technical knowledge is nowheres near or even close to some of the other members on this forum, some Google better than others. You wouldn't be the first to bring this up and I'm sure you won't be the last. Gene, knows about it and believe me Gene will defend his website he will not pick or choose a side, that's not Gene. He will tell someone to move onto a vent steam forum. My friend doesn't matter what anyone else, thinks, post, or what ever acronym they choose to use to, degrade flame or put down someone's choice of gear or manufacturer they decide to use. Remember, it's your money, it's your hobby. I've seen on here people trying to chop up Pass Lab, Krell and yes Macintosh. It's silly I think, even Emotiva, or Outlaw gear will get ostracized by some members. Remember, far as you could know, one or more could be a associate at Best Buy, sitting on their work place PC. Posting up fake post or threads, under whatever profile name, to start a post or thread, going, oh I just got this AVR, this pair of speakers. Than they post up links on the post as click-bate. But I feel ya, nothing wrong with bragging rights. Wait till you post up spec's on your gear they'll hit you up with fact-checks just to lower you into an argument and start trolling you. Some have no sense of humor at all! Some will do it to try and make you feel like you wasted your money who cares what anyone thinks it's your hobby your money your gear. The way I look at it, if they can't take a joke? Than they can take a penis!! ;):cool::D. I really enjoyed viewing your photos and you sharing your thoughts on your gear. That's what this is about, remember some people don't like happy people, the same could be said, some don't like people with lots of money or some who don't have much. Enjoy your gear, enjoy, your hobbies. Life is to short not to.;)
 
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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
B
Why do you admire people that own expensive equipment that you can't afford if objective test measurements shows that some of their equipment doesn't measure any better than equipment costing much less, it makes no sense to me, even if you could afford it.
Because I just like all things audio just because it doesn't measure well or just because I'd never buy it doesn't mean I can't enjoy getting to know about it. Or getting a kick out of people getting excited about it.

But I also appreciate people with knowledge like yourself that keep things in perspective and help me make informed decisions

But still there's nothing wrong with getting a kick out of seeing expensive gear. Or getting to know the people a little that are enjoying it.

That's just me I'm pretty laid back by nature and just don't get worked up about stuff

But I do agree with your perspective on needing to make sure that no matter how nice the product it needs to meet established criteria that research has found yields promising results for our passion.

But still ya can't blame me for thinking some of that expensive stuff looks pretty cool.
Lol. Nothing wrong with window looking :D
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Some of it does measure better. And some of it is just plain more effective or more satisfying to use. Measurements are important, but there's more to an equipment purchase than just measurements. For example, how about this DAC:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/

I know someone who bought one. $128. Measures competitively to more expensive stuff. He hated using it because of the tiny controls and lack of appropriate connector space on the rear, so he sent it back to Amazon. Sometimes spending more gets you more than competitive measurements.
Yes that is true.
 
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