Hurricane rating system

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
A very large majority of people in the path of Florence did evacuate. Days before the storm hit, the interstate highways were heavy with traffic, and all the lanes ran in the same direction, away from the coast. When the TV reporters got wind blown and wet in front of their cameras, they were among the few people left.

Those who didn't evacuate got on the TV news. Often it was as they were being rescued by local police or fire & rescue, the National Guard, or the Cajun Navy (bless their hearts!). As those people are now finding out, the hard way, their problems didn't end with the wind, rain, and flooding. There is no electricity, NO AIR CONDITIONING, and very little food, water and gasoline. It may go on like that for longer than anyone would like.

TV doesn't cover hurricanes that don't come ashore, and it doesn't cover people who had sense and evacuated.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Do we really need a better system tho? I've never lived thru a hurricane or had to evacuate due to one, but watching tv from afar and it seems pretty obvious to me that if one comes, you leave. Doesnt matter the wind speed or the predictions or the size of it. All of them cause floods. Why don't people who live in those areas see it the same way?
I think the reasons are complex. The big driver in this is the flooding. I can tell you the reasoning. There is a strong temptation to try and defend your property from water to the last reasonable moment.

If your house blows down or the roof blows off, you will almost certainly have good insurance coverage. Your mortgage company will have insisted on it for one thing. Everybody is at least under insured for flood damage, and worse data shows most have no coverage against flood. It is not required unless you are in the 100 year flood plain, and I have already explained how useless that is. If you are well outside the 100 year flood it is likely flood insurance will not even be available to you. With these weather events more and more are getting flooded out, well outside the 100 year corps flood lines. So flooding really tends to wipe people out financially. SBA loans are usually made available, but they have to be paid back as well as the original mortgage. When I was flooded in a flash incident in 1979, Federal Flood paid better than it does now. But I still needed a small SBA loan on top of my mortgage to get the house habitable.

That was quite an incident. The power went out, and phones, no mobiles then. I did manage to get into the builder's trailer next door and phone the emergency center. Then I had a real Monty Python type conversation with the command center. They denied we were flooded and accused me of having put them on. I repeatedly described the scene and need for assistance. They said "no all the flooding is at River Side, no flooding where you are, you just have a bit of seepage!" We got no official assistance. We had to wait until the builder, building the house next door. turned up. My wife and I with four children, the youngest a baby, evacuated in the bucket of his front end loader with the dog swimming behind. Anyhow the point is flood is a mega stress on multiple levels.

The flood in Grand Forks of 1997 was a massive event. I fought with all my might not to get flooded again and the neighborhood. Most of the town was not lucky. Of course there are never enough contractors. So people lived in FEMA trailers in their drive ways, where they learned to rebuild their homes. The vast majority of homes were rebuilt DIY, for financial reasons and lack of professional help. The thing that staggered me is how quickly the people brought the city back and the surrounding areas. This all achieved while people had to hold down their regular jobs. Minot ND went through the same thing with the Souris river flood of a few years ago from massive snow melt in Saskatchewan.

Floods are a huge issue and devastating on many levels.

In this country we need much more buy outs and getting people permanently out of harms way and intelligent flood control and abatement engineering. With the later in the US there is a big problem as the formula the Corps have to use is not fit for purpose. The ratio of flood mitigation cost versus property and infrastructure protected does not in any way strike a reasonable balance. The cost always comes out too high, (probably because the corps wants and easy life) and the cost of rebuilding grossly underestimated. In my view the Corps need getting out of this and as much as possible returned to local control.

Manitoba really shows the way, using bold flood protection engineering, raising structures out of flood plains and abatement. They are also very good at engineering on the fly in crisis. Like building an emergency diversion in that Souris flood that drains into the Assiniboine and threatened Winnipeg. The diversion from Portage La Prairie to Lake Manitoba reached capacity. So they dug an emergency channel from the Hoot and Holler Bend on the Assiniboine to the Red River. That is quite a long way, and I think at least five farmsteads were bulldozed, but Winnipeg was saved in the nick of time.

So you can see the temptation to try and protect property from flood. The potential financial disaster and the inconvenience are just massive. Anyhow that is what I have observed, and more, about flood events.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I agree, there definitely comes a point where instead of paying to rebuild, flood insurance should pay to relocate.
I know a (somewhat wealthy) family that is happy to have a vacation home in a very exposed location in the Gulf (near Biloxi, MS). They said they had to rebuild it every 7 years on average and this was 30 years ago before the recent uptick in hurricanes! They know it is kind of dumb to rebuild knowing it will be wiped out before long, but as long as the government was willing to subsidize the cost to rebuild, they had a wonderful place.
I'm not keen on my tax dollars being spent that way. Small concession, but at least they were nice people and honest about it being stupid!
 
D

Drunkpenguin

Audioholic Chief
7 times? I think I would build it out of concrete next time.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
7 times? I think I would build it out of concrete next time.
Yes, I think ICF is the way to go. I'm building an ICF home. The weakness is the roof. I explored getting roof trusses made using Buckminster Fuller's octet trusses. I found a firm in MO who would do it, but the lead time is far too long. However the contractor is interested and so is the MO firm. I recon that if you did an ICF home with steel octet roof construction really clamped to the ICF reinforcing rods, and used a metal roof you could pretty much hurricane and tornado proof a home. That still leaves the flooding issue though.
 
D

Drunkpenguin

Audioholic Chief
I don't live in hurricane country, but we do get some very high winds out here. Metal roofs are very popular because of regular hail storms that we get. I've seen plenty of them blow off though. It's very possible they weren't installed properly, but just be aware it can still happen and when those things go flying you better be in a safe place!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The power went out, and phones, no mobiles then. I did manage to get into the builder's trailer next door and phone the emergency center. Then I had a real Monty Python type conversation with the command center. They denied we were flooded and accused me of having put them on. I repeatedly described the scene and need for assistance. They said "no all the flooding is at River Side, no flooding where you are, you just have a bit of seepage!"
That sounds disturbingly like the Dead Parrot routine.
I'm not keen on my tax dollars being spent that way. Small concession, but at least they were nice people and honest about it being stupid!
I'm not keen about that either, even if there were a discount for being nice, honest, but stupid.
I'm building an ICF home.
You've used that abbreviation more than once. Does ICF stand for Insulating Concrete Form?
Interesting. I know nothing about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulating_concrete_form

I quickly found a web site for a local ICF builder in Maryland. Their examples show standard wooden roofs.
https://excelbuilders.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkqu4vfrH3QIVEInICh1hCAMeEAAYASAAEgLH6PD_BwE
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't live in hurricane country, but we do get some very high winds out here. Metal roofs are very popular because of regular hail storms that we get. I've seen plenty of them blow off though. It's very possible they weren't installed properly, but just be aware it can still happen and when those things go flying you better be in a safe place!
Its probably because of the fir roof trusses. That is why I think a steel octet truss would be better. Stronger and lighter than the wood anyway.

Bucky came to give a lecture in Grand Forks. Absolutely fascinating. He did his trick of standing on his matchstick sphere. He was all about what he called his tensegrity structures. He was 90 at the time. Unfortunately his dies a few weeks after coming to Grand Forks.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That sounds disturbingly like the Dead Parrot routine.
I'm not keen about that either, even if there were a discount for being nice, honest, but stupid.
You've used that abbreviation more than once. Does ICF stand for Insulating Concrete Form?
Interesting. I know nothing about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulating_concrete_form

I quickly found a web site for a local ICF builder in Maryland. Their examples show standard wooden roofs.
https://excelbuilders.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkqu4vfrH3QIVEInICh1hCAMeEAAYASAAEgLH6PD_BwE
Yes, it was very reminiscent of the Dead Parrot sketch.

The roof as I said is the week link of the ICF. That is why I think the steel octet truss should be considered. Anyhow I'm beefing up the truss strength and fastening it down to the walls with hurricane clips. That is the best I can think of now. The other thing that is being explored is building houses without eves. It is well known that the eves first catch the wind, the roof lets go and then the house explodes into splinters.

Trouble with that approach is that you have to provide for roof water to drain though plumbing inside the house.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Will your steel octet truss roof look like a dome? My high school, built in 1961/62, had a gym with a geodesic dome. I was in the class of 1966.


From the inside, you could see steel beams making an interlocking triangular/hexagonal pattern, as illustrated below. Some people swore Buckminster Fuller himself had some part in its design or construction, but I never knew that for certain. The separate classroom building was cheap and poorly built. It was torn down and replaced in the 1990s. Sadly, the domed gym was torn down too.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not keen about that either, even if there were a discount for being nice, honest, but stupid.
I'm not sure I'd consider them stupid for it. It is the Government policy that enables it.
If they were to decide not to rebuild, there are plenty of people who would be happy to buy the lot and build on it as long as the Government Flood insurance has their back. As TLSGuy pointed out, the insurance doesn't cover the full cost, but plenty are willing to consider paying the gap as a maintenance fee on having a house at the edge of the water as long as Uncle Sam is paying the lion's share.
This is not the venue of blue collar workers, and I expect a lot of lobbiests get busy whenever the topic of the government "taking peoples' homes from them" to remove them from obvious flood conditions comes up.
I don't think rebuilding is ethical, but it is legal and that seems to be the standard for societal norms these days.
Warren Buffet pointed out that he pays a lower percentage of taxes on his income than his house-keeper, but no one considers him dumb for hiring accountants to not pay more tax than he legally needs to. He points it out as an injustice, but until the tax codes are changed, he will continue to take advantage of whatever tax reductions he can get!

The problems of building in hazardous areas or paving over wetlands was a very prominent topic for the flooding in Houston! Has anything changed there?
(not a rhetorical question, I don't know)
 
D

Drunkpenguin

Audioholic Chief
THats not a bad idea. I'm surprised more houses are built arrow dynamic like that.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The internet can be amazing. Not only did I find the photo of the domed gym (above),but I found some documentation about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Whitman_High_School_(Bethesda,_Maryland)

The school opened in the fall of 1962 with 1,418 students. (I was one of those students, in the 9th grade.) Designed by local architect Anthony Ferrara, it was built on 17 levels, with a center courtyard and a geodesic dome for its gymnasium. A Ford Foundation grant underwrote the design and construction of the dome… In 1992, the geodesic dome and all other buildings except for the auditorium were demolished and construction began on a new school building, which opened in fall 1993.​
Another photo from 1962
 
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D

Drunkpenguin

Audioholic Chief
But they didn't have the internet in 1962. How did they upload all that info to the future? :p JK. It is pretty awesome the information we have access to. I hope the younger generations that have never known anything else appreciate it. I saw post somewhere from some girl that asked "How did people find stuff before gps?"
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Will your steel octet truss roof look like a dome?

My high school, built in 1961/62, had a gym with a geodesic dome. I was in the class of 1966.


From the inside, you could see steel beams making an interlocking triangular pattern. Some people swore Buckminster Fuller himself had some part in its design or construction, but I never knew that for certain. The classroom building was cheap and poorly built. It was torn down and replaced in the late 1980s. Sadly, the domed gym was torn down too.
That is a geodesic dome, also Bucky's invention.

This is a picture of a farm building built by World Wide Steel buildings that I have had discussions and actually met with.



They have only done commercial buildings to date, and had not considered making octet truss structures for residential buildings. They agreed it is now worth exploring. Fir lumbar is skyrocketing in price because of the devastation caused by the North West Pine Beetle. The forestry industry mono culture has created this nightmare. So the use of wood in construction is going to have to be severely curtailed.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
That is a geodesic dome, also Bucky's invention.

This is a picture of a farm building built by World Wide Steel buildings that I have had discussions and actually met with.



They have only done commercial buildings to date, and had not considered making octet truss structures for residential buildings. They agreed it is now worth exploring. Fir lumbar is skyrocketing in price because of the devastation caused by the North West Pine Beetle. The forestry industry mono culture has created this nightmare. So the use of wood in construction is going to have to be severely curtailed.
Thanks. An octet truss looks similar to those engineered wood floor joists I've seen at construction sites.

Now that steel is locally made (ahem) and abundantly cheap (ahem again), it seems like a good idea.

I wonder what the acoustics would be in a room with a geodesic domed ceiling? Would there be a focal point?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks. An octet truss looks similar to those engineered wood floor joists I've seen at construction sites.

Now that steel is locally made (ahem) and abundantly cheap (ahem again), it seems like a good idea.

I wonder what the acoustics would be in a room with a geodesic domed ceiling? Would there be a focal point?
No here would not be. Dome structures are highly problematic acoustically. The Italians festooned there domed cathedrals with huge tapestries centuries ago, to tame the acoustics. The RAH is of course domed, and Elgar famously said of it: - it is the only place in London where I can here my music twice in an evening!

This is how the RAH was tamed.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks. An octet truss looks similar to those engineered wood floor joists I've seen at construction sites.
That's a bar joist. Any open ceiling best buy / bed bath and beyond or the like has those, just not at an angle. I feel like I've cut drywall around a million of those down south.

TLS, build your home to the South Florida Building Code if you're worried about wind. Again, I'm not a residential guy but their code is meant to hurricane proof a house. No such thing as tornado proof, last I heard. Those things take everything. EDIT: Foil back drywall on the perimeter too. ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That's a bar joist. Any open ceiling best buy / bed bath and beyond or the like has those, just not at an angle. I feel like I've cut drywall around a million of those down south.

TLS, build your home to the South Florida Building Code if you're worried about wind. Again, I'm not a residential guy but their code is meant to hurricane proof a house. No such thing as tornado proof, last I heard. Those things take everything. EDIT: Foil back drywall on the perimeter too. ;)
It will be at least South Florida code. The Tornadoes are getting more frequent here. Tornado damage in the Northfield area just South of the cities two days ago. Lots of damage from Grand Forks to Black Duck a few months ago. That was 120 mile plus stretch. Last year I went to Bemidji after a storm and there were whole roofs in the ditches all over the place.

I have lost a lot of trees in the last few years, 16 in one storm alone. Thank Heavens for the JD Model A to do the heavy lifting! Only lost one tree this year, but my neighbor came down the next day and found five big trees over his board walk down to the lake. That night another storm and he his car was blocked in by fallen trees. His chain saw was running all day.

Last Friday into Saturday, we had another storm with 3.5 inches of rain in less than two hours, plus lots of fine hail that stripped a lot of the trees and ruined the fall colors. Just North of Laporte six miles away they got over five inches. Heavy rain forecast for tomorrow. Its just crazy now, and the insurance companies are threatening pulling out of the this Midwest region.

Things have really escalated since 1914 when the oceans showed signs of CO2 saturation and is showing declining ability to adsorb CO2, in other words the major buffer source is hitting the buffers.

Time to adapt, but easier said than done. Even if we shut off the CO2 and other spigots now it will be generations before any reversal at all and may be over 2000 years. It took a long time to sequester all that COs as fossilized wood. We have been raiding the bank deposit box increasingly since the late 1700s since Trevithic invented the high pressure steam engine. James Watt in 1763 invented the earlier steam vacuum or atmospheric engine. That powered the first steam ships including HMS Warrior the first steam battleship, now at Portsmouth. You can see Watt's name on the engines.



That's the beginnings pf the raid on the carbon piggy bank.
 
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