HTPC build that works reliably

G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Why not a Raspberry Pi? No disc drive, but it's capable of bluray quality playback.. Have to boot from an SD, but you can also use an external HD after boot.
I do use one, but I would never call it "reliable" and it's not fully capable of replacing an HTPC. I find it fantastic for a second screen though.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I put the following together just for a quick comparison.

Apex Mini-ITX Case MI-008, w/ 250W Power Supply - $44.99
Toshiba 2TB 7200RPM - $99.99
GIGABYTE GA-H77N-WIFI - $102.99
Celeron G540 - $44.99
Patriot 4GB DDR3 - $18.99
Asus Blu-ray Drive - $53.99
- Discount Code PREFERRED3 for 3% off order total

Tax: None
Shipping: Free
Total: $354.96

If we wanted to go full-on penny pinch mode, we could save ~$5 on the blu-ray drive, and significant amounts on the motherboard and HDD. For comparison, here is how the Celeron stacks-up against the Atom 525. Something to note as far as OS costs go, there was at one time a loophole where MS would allow you to install upgrade versions of OSes as a full version and it was completely legitimate (was a bit of a backdoor in case the upgrade borked your system and you needed a fresh install). Not sure if they still allow this, but if they do, you could potentially get Windows 7 Home Premium for ~$50.

Edit: Forgot to mention the goal of the build I put together was at minimum to match every feature of the Asus linked earlier and in pretty much every case exceed it. Hence the extra spend on Motherboard with Wifi built-in and Blu-ray drive.
That is an interesting build. I suppose you could build one as just a streaming player, loading the OS from and external drive, if you left out the disc drive. Then you would need very little storage, 60 Gig would be plenty. The Wi-Fi being built in is very nice.

How quiet is the box?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Why not a Raspberry Pi? No disc drive, but it's capable of bluray quality playback.. Have to boot from an SD, but you can also use an external HD after boot.
There is an openElec for Pi, but I don't think it supports hd audio just yet... plus atom 2.13 is significantly faster that PI's processor. SD boot is not an issues imo.
PI has potential as htpc, but imo both hardware and software must improve .
 
L

Lordhumungus

Audioholic
@ADTG Not for much longer you don't. Intel is going to stop producing consumer desktop boards by 2016.

@BoredSysAdmin I don't personally see the tiny box as a selling point because I don't know anyone who is so size constrained that they can't fit a shoebox sized system in with their equipment. Once you factor in that the power supply on the Asus is external and that it doesn't have any space for in internal disc drive, the size difference is negligible at best. I do agree with you that the PSU that comes with the Apex case is pretty un-stellar, but I would be incredibly surprised if it were any worse than what comes with the Asus. The case itself however, I will gladly stand-up for. I have plenty of experience with premium cases from Lian-Li, Silverstone (currently have an FT-02 for my gaming rig), Cooler Master, Corsair etc. and I was really surprised with how well engineered it is for such a small and inexpensive case. Everything fits extremely well, it doesn't use any non-standard sizes for things like the PSU, so you can go get a Seasonic ITX power supply if you want, and whether by accident or on purpose, it has exactly enough space to fit a 120mm exhaust fan that is held in place by the chassis rails. Very, very little wasted space inside the box with just enough room for expansion.

As for whether or not the extra power is necessary, I suppose that depends on perspective. For me, I currently have about 600 blu-ray movies (and almost always adding more) that I've re-encoded so my roommates can watch them on their devices on the go. All that encoding can take some decent power if I don't feel like waiting a day for every movie to finish. Usually I just que up a batch of 10 or so movies on my HTPC and the i5 gets them all done at extremely high quality within about a 24-hour period. Doing the same thing on an Atom would probably take multiple days per movie, so it's simply not an option for me.

Also, 4k is rapidly approaching and I have no doubt that the i5 will be up to the task when it does. If the on-board video ends up being insufficient, I can spring for a $30-50 video card and the problem is solved. Not so with the Asus.

To address your point of reliability, I'm not quite clear where this is coming from. Everything I linked is from a reputable company with industry standard 2-3 year warranties on pretty much every component.

@Grador I agree completely. I'd say only in the last 2 or so years with the advent of Sandy Bridge and to a lesser extent AMDs Llano CPUs with quality integrated graphics capabilities has this really been a viable solution. The price to performance on these chips is absolutely stellar and they only keep getting better. I was lucky enough to test on the pre-production version of Sandy Bridge about a year before it was released and it absolutely felt like a game changer. Plus I am lazy and having to add in even less components to get a computer bootable is perfectly ok with me :D

@hizzah I don't know much about Raspberry Pi other than it being a full SoC solution designed to run Linux. Are they really powerful enough to push blu-ray content? At some point I may build an ITX or similar form factor PC using an old NES shell that I have, so it might be a viable solution for that if it's really capable enough.

@TLS Guy The case itself doesn't have any active cooling, but using the stock Intel HSF and one of these (a great balance of decent performance, low noise, low cost and removable blades for easy cleaning) I'd say the loudest thing in the case most of the time is the blu-ray or HDD. If the stock cooler is too loud for you, you could go with a Silverstone NT07 and set it to low. Personally I think they are all inaudible unless you are sitting head first inside your PC, but I'm not the best judge since I do have some minor hearing loss.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Nice case/psu like TLS bought cost a pretty penny out of htpc budget.

Going back to original point of this post - Reliable Htpc - it's reliable because of high quality component which are typically priced at a premium
Well I built it to be a reliable reference system, so that I could evaluates sites knowing I was doing them justice. I also dislike things that don't work correctly.

In my PERSONAL opinion, HTPC is not about being the ultimate most awesome media computer - all I want it to do is to have nice 10ft interface, playback of 1080p video and support hd audio bitstream. Playback of ISO containers is big plus.
That's it. No need to tons of storage. No need for TV tuners. No need to play games. Just a media client. Atom/Nvidia combo does the job nicely. I had Atom 330/ion1 system and other than hdmi (and other hardware) issues - most related to poor mobo from Zotac - then it was working - it was working plenty of fast for me with software boxee.
I think that really goes to the heart of the matter. I built my HTPC, primarily to evaluate classical music and opera streaming sites.

These are on the list: -

Medici TV

BPO Digital Concert Hall

DSO Live

Opera Broadcast.com

Met Player

Now there are two major problems. It is very hard to land on some of these sites from a Google search.

The even bigger problem is connectivity to a home AV system. There are no icons on the TV screen, no icons on Apple TV, Boxee and Roku etc.

Some I'm reseaching a small box affordable solution, that can get to the web. It needs to be plug and play. Just power + HDMI to receiver and a Wi-Fi connection. It needs a simple set up, not at all "geeky". It needs to be reliable.

I would rather not get into a solution that requires any degree of fabrication, but is needs be it will have to come to that.

My friend Phil wants an easy solution for this now. So I have a ready customer.

My son and I were discussing this at length, and we felt the easiest solution was to design a web page to collect the sites.

I have ordered one of these for evaluation. They can be had for $164 on Amazon.

I hoped this thread would take the turn that it has.

This is a serious problem as our Orchestras are getting into big trouble. The second issue is the major roadblock and so I'm open to all suggestions.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Also, 4k is rapidly approaching and I have no doubt that the i5 will be up to the task when it does. If the on-board video ends up being insufficient, I can spring for a $30-50 video card and the problem is solved. Not so with the Asus.
4k will be straining on an i5 system, and i'm not sure anything below a middle of the road GPU would be much help either. My sandybridge i7 laptop can get a little bit unhappy when i throw 4k content at it, and it's lower end GPU is far far worse than letting the CPU handle it.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
@BoredSysAdmin I don't personally see the tiny box as a selling point because I don't know anyone who is so size constrained that they can't fit a shoebox sized system in with their equipment. Once you factor in that the power supply on the Asus is external and that it doesn't have any space for in internal disc drive, the size difference is negligible at best.
I don't want another shoe-box in-front of me and until I could properly hide in a/v closet - In need to be reasonably small, especially in height. It's a matter of personal taste, but I think Apex case is hideous and to get nicer case one still must pay thru the roof. To have optical drive is not a requirement for me, as I could my backups and re-encodes on main desktop then needed.

I do agree with you that the PSU that comes with the Apex case is pretty un-stellar, but I would be incredibly surprised if it were any worse than what comes with the Asus.
I would be shocked to see anything less than stellar from Asus, but I will let you know later. One thing I can vouch for - is NO way the APEX PSU could ever reliably make that 250W and have stable voltages.

As for whether or not the extra power is necessary, I suppose that depends on perspective. For me, I currently have about 600 blu-ray movies (and almost always adding more) that I've re-encoded so my roommates can watch them on their devices on the go. All that encoding can take some decent power if I don't feel like waiting a day for every movie to finish. Usually I just que up a batch of 10 or so movies on my HTPC and the i5 gets them all done at extremely high quality within about a 24-hour period. Doing the same thing on an Atom would probably take multiple days per movie, so it's simply not an option for me.
Like I said - everyone have their own uses for htpc and Re-encoding does indeed take big strain on resources, but recently there is a trend to offload some of processing in re-encoding video on gpu so big and powerful cpu might not be as needed as before.

Also, 4k is rapidly approaching and I have no doubt that the i5 will be up to the task when it does. If the on-board video ends up being insufficient, I can spring for a $30-50 video card and the problem is solved. Not so with the Asus
.
Personally couldn't care less about 4k and 3D. 720p source is good enough for me (despite having new 55" 1080p TV mere 8 ft from me)

To address your point of reliability, I'm not quite clear where this is coming from. Everything I linked is from a reputable company with industry standard 2-3 year warranties on pretty much every component.
Apex has only 1 year warranty and I strongly disagree on calling it reputable company. So far all Apex products I have seen been innovative, but poor quality made.

@hizzah I don't know much about Raspberry Pi other than it being a full SoC solution designed to run Linux. Are they really powerful enough to push blu-ray content? At some point I may build an ITX or similar form factor PC using an old NES shell that I have, so it might be a viable solution for that if it's really capable enough.

Pi can decode and play full bitrate BluRay content - I was concerned about it's ability to bitstream hd audio.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
They can push bluray content, I have personally verified this. No HD audio though.
 
L

Lordhumungus

Audioholic
@ADTG Am I understanding correctly that you are trying to build some sort of aggregator for these websites? Would the various sites even allow it? A web engineer friend of mine recently quit his job and I wouldn't mind asking him what kind of work something like that might take.

As far as ease of system, the parts I linked were under the assumption that everyone here knows enough to put a system together. For Joe Consumer, buying something pre-built is almost always the preferred solution.

@Grador I did some quick checking and you are correct about Sandy Bridge and 4k, Ivy Bridge however does support 4k. Easy fix though, I can just grab a cheap video card and I'm back in business.

@BoredSysAdmin In my opinion you are overly concerned with the quality of the Apex PSU which will literally never be asked to put out more than half of what it's rated for, but in the interest of offering an alternative, you can buy the same case without a PSU for $5 less and add in this Seasonic. As for the quality of the Apex case, having built 3 machines with them, I will stand by it. What makes the hunk of plastic around the Asus any better or worse than the Apex? I'll give you that it is smaller, but that's about. As for looks, that is of course personal preference, and I realize I actually linked the wrong model of the Apex case. I prefer the look of this one which is $5 more. If the power supply is the main concern, I think that is valid, but again I'd be amazed if the power brick with the Asus were much better (I tried looking for specs but couldn't find anything). Also interesting to note is that that same PSU is the OEM for many HP and e-Machines SFF PCs. Not a good indicator of quality mind you, but it does get used in the consumer space. As for the warranty period for the Apex case/PSU it is identical to the one year warranty offered by Asus for the entire system. With all due respect, I get the impression that you are being overly critical on the Apex case while simultaneously giving the Asus a free pass for basically the same things. Perhaps that is just my perception though.

As for encoding offloading onto the GPU, I've tried several variations, and all produced results that were completely unacceptable to me. As such I still do the highest quality software encodes that I can, which really gives the CPU a nice workout. I have a gaming rig and a laptop in addition to the computers posted in my sig, but I don't like to encode on those since they are used for other things (gaming and work). I also occasionally offload tasks onto my server since it is has a higher-end C2D that I pulled from my old gaming machine. Talk about overkill...

I agree 100% about 3D and 4k is a non-issue for now, but I think it's safe to say that I'm in the minority, sitting about 4-5' from my 55" TV :D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I picked up an HP/Compaq with Sempron 140 on close out at OfficeMax for $230. Added a $20 92mm CPU HSF (barely fit), $50 BR Drive, $15 (after rebate) Radeon 5XXX Series and Arcsoft. Did the entire thing for $415. Play BR titles w/o missing a beat. You don't have to custom build nor spend a ton is what I would want people to take away from it. You won't do any real gaming however.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
It really is amazing what you can do with the ultra low powered mini pc's. I got one of these and am very surprised at how it handles everything I've thrown at it. Blu-ray playback with HD audio, web streaming with silverlight and flash. Works great. My HTPC in my theater room is much better, but cost about 3 times what that one does.

Foxconn nt-A3700-0H0WBANA Black Mini / Booksize Barebone System - Newegg.com
+1.
A450 is faster than most current atoms and radeons gpus have plenty of juice for video processing, my only issue with amd platform is unfortunately poor linux drivers support... and I won't want to install full blown win7 just for htpc uses.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
@BoredSysAdmin .... I do agree with you that the PSU that comes with the Apex case is pretty un-stellar, but I would be incredibly surprised if it were any worse than what comes with the Asus.....
Here is the update: Just got the Asus box. a) It's REALLY thin and very nicely built. The PSU which comes with it is rated at 19V at 3.42A which is effective 65W and built for Asus by Delta Electronics.
I don't know if you know who Delta is , but they are as good as it get in PSU world. Probably only PC Power and cooling is on same level. Apex's PSU are total junk.
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Also, 4k is rapidly approaching and I have no doubt that the i5 will be up to the task when it does. If the on-board video ends up being insufficient, I can spring for a $30-50 video card and the problem is solved. Not so with the Asus.
The Asus includes GT610 gpu . According to Wikipedia GT610 includes 4k support in hardware, but not yet in driver yet
Nvidia PureVideo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I wonder if dropping the disc drive completely would be a good option on this. Also is on board video good enough now to not get a video card? I'd think that would be the necessary move, but then again I play really old games so I don't need anything like this. I may undertake a PC build after my speakers are complete. I've been thinking about building my own case with plywood.
 
L

Lordhumungus

Audioholic
Here is the update: Just got the Asus box. a) It's REALLY thin and very nicely built. The PSU which comes with it is rated at 19V at 3.42A which is effective 65W and built for Asus by Delta Electronics.
I don't know if you know who Delta is , but they are as good as it get in PSU world. Probably only PC Power and cooling is on same level. Apex's PSU are total junk.
Yes, I am aware of Delta and the quality PSU platforms that they have created as well as Seasonic, PCP&C etc (I have owned one or more from all OEMs). Unfortunately, the information you provided doesn't actually tell us the efficiency of the power brick, just who it was made by and the output wattage that it is capable of. In this case, I think it is obvious that the output wattage is going to be equal to what the system needs to function, so I am interested more in the efficiency. While it is likely to be a quality unit with an efficiency in the 80-85% range, we are only speculating until we get some real numbers (either from you or somewhere else). If you could post the model #, that would probably go a long way. Still, my point stands that the Apex PSU will do just fine relative to the application. It would be nearly impossible to overtax the PSU in a box so small. An overclocked i7 at maximum load will use somewhere around ~200 watts, where the Apex PSU will output ~196 watts. The likely outcome here is that things start to get really, really hot long before you ever reach this point. If we bring the processor back down to the reality of the cooling capabilities of such a SFF unit, you are well within the safety area to run literally anything you can fit in the box. Including a non-overclocked i7 (if you can cool it) and all of your HDD/Disc drive needs. At the end of the day it rarely matters what something can theoretically do, only what it will actually do relative to what it needs to do. Maybe you are concerned with noise or ripple or something? I guess the best thing to ask is simply what won't the Apex case and/or PSU do that you think it should?

Again, just to be clear, I agree that there are PSUs that are much better, but in this case I think the PSU is more than up to the task it is being asked to provide for. If you don't agree, simply buy the case without a PSU and add-in the Seasonic.

As for 4k support on the hardware side for the Asus, I don't doubt it, but whether it ever sees the light of day and is actually usable is a another issue entirely. In contrast, Ivy Bridge can do 4k right now.

@TLS Guy, it was actually you I was trying to ask about aggregating the websites.

@lsiberian, absolutely yes, onboard video has plenty of juice for you. Technically most games, even current ones, will run on an Intel HD3000 integrated graphics, albeit with lower settings and at about ~20-25 FPS. Obviously, the older the game, the higher you will be able to crank things before it starts to slow down.

If for some reason you find yourself being in the minority of wanting the best gaming experience you can get while staying with integrated graphics, I would highly recommend the AMD Llano series of APU. Intel beats AMD in pure CPU speed, but the integrated graphics on the AMD completely outclasses anything Intel has to offer. APU is likely the entire future for AMD as a company.

As for dropping the disc drive, that's personal preference, but for me it's worth $40 just to never have to think about it.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
@lsiberian, absolutely yes, onboard video has plenty of juice for you. Technically most games, even current ones, will run on an Intel HD3000 integrated graphics, albeit with lower settings and at about ~20-25 FPS. Obviously, the older the game, the higher you will be able to crank things before it starts to slow down.

If for some reason you find yourself being in the minority of wanting the best gaming experience you can get while staying with integrated graphics, I would highly recommend the AMD Llano series of APU. Intel beats AMD in pure CPU speed, but the integrated graphics on the AMD completely outclasses anything Intel has to offer. APU is likely the entire future for AMD as a company.

As for dropping the disc drive, that's personal preference, but for me it's worth $40 just to never have to think about it.
I haven't played a new PC Game in like 10 years, but I'm considering the PC among the options between the new consoles coming out. I'd need coop though and that might be too much of a pain.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Just a quick BTW... the Raspberry Pi openelec build (Frodo) supports HD audio- the rPI hardware supports HD audio. Its a matter of time- DTS-MA probably sooner thatn TRUEHD. The PI plays DTS-MA files by passing through the DTS core stream requiring very little system resources. It really doesn't like anything with TRUEHD, though. It handles local and networked blurays just fine. Spend a couple bucks on the MPEG-2 license and DVD Folders work. The menu and DVD navigation aren't perfect, but it works.

Still- the big thing here is that its 35 bucks + <$10 SD card. I now have 3 of them. :) Its the best music streamer I've ever used. They never get turned off and I've only had to reboot one of them in the last couple weeks. More than reliable enough for me.

OH, and I found a (sort of) embedded Super Nintendo build for it (just swap SD cards) and can play all of my old school super nintendo games on all my screens with a wireless controller. Pretty sweet.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I have quick update as well:
I installed OpenElec 3 RC5 (x86) Ion Build which includes XBMC Frodo. Had few small issues originally like 64 bit didn't seem to support add-ons, but stuff like this is expected with beta builds. Last stable build of OpenElec is version 2 and includes XMBC 11 which is no go for me.
What I discovered is OpenElec has official Sabnzbd suite (Sabnzbd, SickBeard and Couchpotato) plugin which works great so far. (After enabling the add-on you'd need to reboot the box to apply some core settings)
I haven't fully tested codec support and played with some skins and settings. I am amazed how many add-ons available for it. Really if OCUR tuners weren't so heavily DRM'd I'm confident xmbc would support them too.

This is the first time I'm seeing something which potentially make a cord cutter out of me. I have to add - the box boots very fast - in 20-25 seconds from full power off to xbmc interface. OpenElec devs did really great job and Atom 2700 is not as slouch at all without heavy baggage of windows os.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I really like how quick OpenElec is on my little foxconn box, even with a mechanical 5400 rpm drive. I'm not an XBMC user, but if I was I'd be hard pressed to find a better, maintenance free solution.
 

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