HT and 2 channel help. Best AVR for both.

P

pinball

Enthusiast
There are many possible explanations as to why you hear differences, not the least of which placebo and expectation bias, but there's more to it than that. That's why I mention DBT (double blind testing). It has been proven over and over that sighted comparisons simply can't be trusted.
So there is nothing to the thought of one receiver vs another being "warm or cool" Also some are better paired with specific speakers? Let's say you have Klipsch speakers that are very bright, you don't want to pair them with a specific receiver.

I have slight tinnitus and unfortunately my ears tell me the difference between my setups using the same speakers. They will start aching and ringing with HT setup in 2 channel mode.
 
P

pinball

Enthusiast
The McIntosh C712 has sperate controls for tonality including Bass, Treble and loudness (flat to Max which I think is bass related). The Marantz has an EQ that may or may not be active or adjusted so I think this is an apples to Asparagus comparison as there is no way to see if both are set to a true neutral allowing for the source (which in and of itself is another item that can change the sound) is playing true.

With that being said if you are experiencing fatigue when using the Marantz you may want to see about adjusting the EQ or using the room correction software to see if it helps.
The C712 is set a flat response and loudness at zero. The Marantz has had auto room correction ran but I disable that when in 2 channel mode or sometimes I try the L&R bypass mode. I have tried them all with no real satisfaction for 2 channel.
 
P

pinball

Enthusiast
One other question.

When I connect the Node 2i media streamer to the AVR, I connect it to a RCA input. Does the internal dac of the Marantz do anything to effect the signal coming from the Node?

When I compare I am always using the Node as the input for the music.
 
S

SimplyEpic

Audioholic
Most of the time I have heard people having fatigue issues it is treble related. You may want to see if you can adjust the EQ to lower the treble through the settings in the Marantz. Also the source of the sound can play a big part. Are you using the same sources when testing between the 2 (same streaming device, file being played etc...)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
So there is nothing to the thought of one receiver vs another being "warm or cool" Also some are better paired with specific speakers? Let's say you have Klipsch speakers that are very bright, you don't want to pair them with a specific receiver.

I have slight tinnitus and unfortunately my ears tell me the difference between my setups using the same speakers. They will start aching and ringing with HT setup in 2 channel mode.
A lot of that is sales pitch and/or personal bias. Nobody is saying you don't hear differences, just that the reasons may not be what you think. I thought I had a good grasp on the placebo effect and expectation bias, but when I started digging I learned it's a lot more influential than I'd previously thought and it changed my perspective a little. It affects everyone too. Me, you... everyone, even if you know it's happening. The best you can do is be aware of it and try to eliminate any biases you already have. That's why DBTs exist. To eliminate as much bias as possible and see what's really going on.

I swear, and I'm not being funny (well, mebbe a little :p), sometimes my speakers sound better after a good dusting and cleaning! I know that's not the case, but they look so much better all shined up so they must sound better too!
 
P

pinball

Enthusiast
Most of the time I have heard people having fatigue issues it is treble related. You may want to see if you can adjust the EQ to lower the treble through the settings in the Marantz. Also the source of the sound can play a big part. Are you using the same sources when testing between the 2 (same streaming device, file being played etc...)
Yes same input/source
Node 2i usually MQA master recording from Tidal and same music.
 
S

SimplyEpic

Audioholic
To my knowledge the DAC on the Marantz should be acting as a passthrough when running in direct mode. Most of time it won't interfere unless you change the channel mode IE... Dolby DTS or Multichannel. I could be wrong but that is my understanding.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Field Marshall
I swear, and I'm not being funny (well, mebbe a little :p), sometimes my speakers sound better after a good dusting and cleaning! I know that's not the case, but they look so much better all shined up so they must sound better too!
too funny, I've felt the say way. It also applies to my car, always feel in runs better after an oil change and a car wash !
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Field Marshall
if I'm understanding you correctly you've put the AVR in place of the Mac to drive your ADS speakers ? have you tried the Mac(in a 2 ch configuration) up against the Logans ? While both speakers share the same sensitivity there is a slight impedance (nominal) difference between the two
 
P

pinball

Enthusiast
Thanks for all the replies so far!
if I'm understanding you correctly you've put the AVR in place of the Mac to drive your ADS speakers ? have you tried the Mac(in a 2 ch configuration) up against the Logans ? While both speakers share the same sensitivity there is a slight impedance (nominal) difference between the two
For the most part, I have taken the ADS out of the comparison. I like the sound of the 2 channel system when paired with the Martin Logan and do not get ear fatigue. Unfortunately I get the fatigue when listening to the HT in 2 channel mode using the same Martin Logan speakers. I have tried bypassing the room correction and also using it. Still get the discomfort after long listening of the same source/music. Something about the Marantz and AMP3 that is different than the MAC setup. EQ is flat on the MAC with no loudness. Marantz is flat unless using room correction.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can listen to the same music and the same volume level and my ears are fatigued after the HT setup for awhile. My 2 channel system while using the same Martin Logan speakers doesn't have the same effect.

If this didn't happen, I would not have asked for help from this group. But it's kinda disheartening when the first response basically says I don't know what I am talking about and hearing.
Does your Marantz AVR have Dolby Atmos, 4K, and all the features you want?

Are you using Audyssey or any kind of EQ, Tone Control, or DSP in the Marantz AVR or McIntosh preamp?
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Maybe it's your cables

Monster Cable

beer.gif
 
P

pinball

Enthusiast
Does your Marantz AVR have Dolby Atmos, 4K, and all the features you want?

Are you using Audyssey or any kind of EQ, Tone Control, or DSP in the Marantz AVR or McIntosh preamp?
Yes the Marantz has most of the features I want.

I keep the MAC preamp at flat response. Also the Marantz has been in direct mode and Audyssey. I have tried all the modes on the Marantz with no satisfaction for music 2 channel.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes the Marantz has most of the features I want.

I keep the MAC preamp at flat response. Also the Marantz has been in direct mode and Audyssey. I have tried all the modes on the Marantz with no satisfaction for music 2 channel.
This seems challenging.

I think many complaints regarding sound quality is related to the settings. It can be a long process.

So you've already tried using Audyssey and tried all the Audyssey modes? Audyssey vs Audyssey Flat vs Audyssey Bypass? Tried using Direct Mode vs Stereo Mode?

And the number 1 issue is that the sound is fatiguing? So there is an issue with the TREBLE, most likely from 6kHz - 10kHz.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This might be a case where you have to try out different AVRs to see which works best.

You might have to use manual EQ to lower the Treble by 0.5dB, 1.0dB.

If it doesn't work, you might have to spend $100 on the UMIK-1 Mic and learn how to do speaker measurements to see where the Treble peak is in your room.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Like I mentioned it is more fatiguing to the ears. I can connect the two front Martin Logan speakers to the McIntosh 2ch setup and it is not fatiguing.
Same room for the comparison? Or do you bring the McIntosh gear into the other room?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So there is nothing to the thought of one receiver vs another being "warm or cool" Also some are better paired with specific speakers? Let's say you have Klipsch speakers that are very bright, you don't want to pair them with a specific receiver.

I have slight tinnitus and unfortunately my ears tell me the difference between my setups using the same speakers. They will start aching and ringing with HT setup in 2 channel mode.
As I quoted many times, our highly respected Dr. Floyd Toole who said in his
Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts youtube video:

(start at about 56:30)

Who said "...the only way we can get those consistent opinion out of you is to not let you know what you are listening to...do it blind....if you know what you are listening to, I don't care what you are thinking, it doesn't matter..."

He's only talking about comparison listening to loudspeakers to determine how they score in terms of how good they sound to a group of 350 people with "normal" hearing. It is widely accepted that it is generally easier to tell the difference between speakers so I don't think we need to debate whether Dr. Toole would have apply the same principle (DBT) for comparing amplifiers.

At about 53:07, he did briefly comment on electronics, citing they nobody would design an electronic component that didn't have a FR that's flat...., flat, smooth..., it is not difficult to do, and everybody does it....

He is not the only audio expert who have made similar points. So with due respect, you heard what you heard, warm, cool, whatever, but it is your subjective experience.

You have nice amps now that were designed to be transparent, so it should match any well designed speakers. The warm sounding amp to match bright sounding speakers are one of the biggest audio myth, it is not just my opinion, but facts if you consider the kind of amps they you have, that again they are transparent, but all well designed/built amps should be transparent, including your SR6010. It you match them, any of them, with speakers that are known to be bright, you should apply EQ, or even simply tone control to your liking. If instead, you pick an amp that is supposed to sound "warm", then even if it is true, how do you know it would just "warm" enough to that particular speaker. How practical is it to find such a match if you want to hear each combinations, and if not, are you just going to go with internet/magazine hearsay?

Anyway, it is probably no point debating this everlasting point, so back to your question on which ARV for you HT, with Atmos capability. I would say if you are okay with the SR6010, you probably can do no wrong going with a SR6015, or 7015. If you are the objective type who trust specs and measurements, the the AVR-X3700H ,X4700H or X6700H will give you more value (better measurements) for less $.


Current ranking of AVRs and AV preamp/processors preamp output by THD+N, HDMI input, tested by ASR

1600472688560.png
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
if I'm understanding you correctly you've put the AVR in place of the Mac to drive your ADS speakers ? have you tried the Mac(in a 2 ch configuration) up against the Logans ? While both speakers share the same sensitivity there is a slight impedance (nominal) difference between the two
I wouldn't use the SR6010 with those ADS speakers, except for low volume listening, and near field.., not if the MC2002 or evne the Proceed Amp 3 is nearby.:D
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
So there is nothing to the thought of one receiver vs another being "warm or cool" Also some are better paired with specific speakers? Let's say you have Klipsch speakers that are very bright, you don't want to pair them with a specific receiver.

I have slight tinnitus and unfortunately my ears tell me the difference between my setups using the same speakers. They will start aching and ringing with HT setup in 2 channel mode.
I have four avrs and wouldn't describe any of them as warm or cool or even different in general sound quality (they have differences in amp and dsp, tho), and for that matter several power amps....I might be able to blindfolded tell you what room and speakers I'm in, but amp? No.
 

Latest posts


newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top