HSU VTF-3 MK4 or SVS PB12-NSD? Hmmm

[shadyJ]

The VTF3 mk4 is much like the mk3 with some improvements, the most notable of which is the addition of the Q control. Supposedly the driver had a few minor improvements as well, which slightly reduced distortion and improved headroom a bit more in the upper bass. So you see, the mk4 is very comparable to the mk3 regarding overall output ability.

Now compare the Outlaw to the Hsu, either mk4 or mk3. Same bash amplifier power, same cabinet shape and volume, similar driver. The key difference is the ports, the Hsu have wider and much longer ports. As you know, this is a big advantage in low frequencies for cleaner and stronger output. Simply put, the VTF3 is a lot like the LFM-1 EX, except better deep bass, a couple more configuration features for the mk4, and some other small improvements. Hsu had a hand in designing the Outlaw subs, I don't know if Outlaw modified Hsu's designs at all, but the Outlaw is really just a slight modification of the VTF3 mk2, the only difference between those two subs is the ports are on the rear of the mk2 as opposed to the underside of the LFM, which, of course, is going to do very little to differentiate performance between the two.

BTW, I don't see where you find superior measurements for the Outlaw on the Hsu. I don't think Ilkka's numbers can be compared to Ricci's, if that is what you are doing. After all, compare Paul Apollonio's measurements of the FV15HP to Josh Ricci's, same exact unit and they had some very different numbers. Both are guys who knew what they were doing, so from that I take these data sets should only be used to compare subs from within themselves. Hell, compare Sound & Visions measurements against Audioholics for the same subs! So much for CEA2010...

 

[Steve81]

After all, compare Paul Apollonio's measurements of the FV15HP to Josh Ricci's, same exact unit and they had some very different numbers.

Actually comparing the numbers, Paul and Josh are within a db of each other at every point.

Regarding the Outlaw vs the Hsu, I'll personally reserve judgement until someone credible *cough*Josh*cough* puts the Hsu through the ringer. As it is, Ilkkas numbers are the closest thing I've got to form an opinion, your feelings and opinions aside. Suffice it to say, your ears and room don't exactly equate to GP measurements, and in your own words you don't know what modifications the Outlaws made, though you seem convinced they must be minor. Also regarding ports, I think it's worth noting that the aforementioned FV15HP gets by with a pair of 3" ports.

 

[mike c]

What he said. Ill trust the cea results that says outlaw > 3.3. (until someone explains WHY theyre not comparable)

Re:3.4 it seems that all u are going on are marketing blurbs. The sledge pb12nsd also has "better" marketing blurbs. The only difference is, svs voluntarily submits units for 3rd party tests. Back when illka did the first pb12nsd, svs retweaked the bash pb12nsd to improve itself. Hsu has not been as agreeable with any of these testers.

 

[ridfighter]

So which of these subs hits the loudest and clean bass?

 

[Steve81]

So which of these subs hits the loudest and clean bass?

Given the data available, the Outlaw will deliver greater SPL at most frequencies (and to a lesser extent, from what data is available, the Hsu VTF3), but the SVS will deliver lower distortion for a given output level as well as greater bandwidth linearity.

 

[shadyJ]

Actually comparing the numbers, Paul and Josh are within a db of each other at every point.

Regarding the Outlaw vs the Hsu, I'll personally reserve judgement until someone credible *cough*Josh*cough* puts the Hsu through the ringer. As it is, Ilkkas numbers are the closest thing I've got to form an opinion, your feelings and opinions aside. Suffice it to say, your ears and room don't exactly equate to GP measurements, and in your own words you don't know what modifications the Outlaws made, though you seem convinced they must be minor. Also regarding ports, I think it's worth noting that the aforementioned FV15HP gets by with a pair of 3" ports.

I seem to remember seeing their measurements were pretty far off, but looking at it now, yes, they are close.

As for the Outlaw vs the Hsu, it appears that you won't be convinced unless Ricci tests one, so I don't have anything else to add. As for the FV15HP's ports, its also worth noting Ricci's review: "Unfortunately the single 3" port can't cope with the output of the 15" driver and compresses a lot while also contributing a lot of wind noise at the highest output levels." The FV15Hp could benefit from larger ports, at least for a lower tuning mode, but they would also have to be much longer ports. The VTF3 solves this problem by curving the ports around in the cabinet, the trick is you have to make the port diameter wider at the bends to avoid chuffing.

What he said. Ill trust the cea results that says outlaw > 3.3. (until someone explains WHY theyre not comparable)

Re:3.4 it seems that all u are going on are marketing blurbs. The sledge pb12nsd also has "better" marketing blurbs. The only difference is, svs voluntarily submits units for 3rd party tests. Back when illka did the first pb12nsd, svs retweaked the bash pb12nsd to improve itself. Hsu has not been as agreeable with any of these testers.

Mike, in my opinion, Ilkka's data isn't compatible with Josh's. The results have to go through corrections for RMS, and they were obtained from two different guys using different equipment in different climates. Anyway, I can not believe you are sincerely arguing this point; you can not honestly believe that a sub using the same essential design but two generations ahead with better specs designed by the same guy who has financial incentive to make his own sub better is going to somehow end up with diminished performance! If you won't take my word for it, as someone who has extensively used and closely compared both, use inferential reasoning!

 

[ridfighter]

Thanks I think I will go with the SVS pb-12NSD!

 

[cr136124]

Thanks I think I will go with the SVS pb-12NSD!

Congrats! You will be really happy with this unit and incredible satisfied with the customer service provided by SVS.

Make sure to contact them prior purchasing your unit to clarify any additional question that you might have (or at least just to re-confirm you are making the right purchase). By the way, I think they are open today (Saturday until 6:00 PM), so call them if you can.

And of course, as soon your sub arrives, call them back to help you out to set your new bad boy.

Once again.........congrats!!!

 

[mike c]

Mike, in my opinion, Ilkka's data isn't compatible with Josh's. The results have to go through corrections for RMS, and they were obtained from two different guys using different equipment in different climates. Anyway, I can not believe you are sincerely arguing this point; you can not honestly believe that a sub using the same essential design but two generations ahead with better specs designed by the same guy who has financial incentive to make his own sub better is going to somehow end up with diminished performance! If you won't take my word for it, as someone who has extensively used and closely compared both, use inferential reasoning!

as per ilkka's page, he HAS CEA RMS results.

that is exactly the point of ground plane testing. having similar results anywhere. weather effect, minimal ... especially between EU and NA.

PB13Ultra/old PB12NSD
Ilkka ... Finland
Slartibartfast ... UK
Ed:SVS/Josh and Paul:AH ... USA

all results ... essentially the same.

using the same logic, SVS also has the same financial incentive to make the sub better. what does that prove? you're trying to say that:

1) when HSU has a newer product, it HAS to be better. but SVS's isn't.
2) there's two generations in between 3.3 and 3.4
3) CEA proves Outlaw > 3.3, but that's BS because you have extensive usage of both models

it's exactly the above points (how you are misunderstanding cold hard facts) why you shouldn't be giving info to others as if they were fact.

if ilkka's measurements can't be compared ... where did you get the info/data that SVS's sledge PB12NSD was crappier than the old PB12NSD?

you can also say you don't like the sledge PB12NSD by the results (without hearing it) but you haven't heard or seen results for the 3.4 as well.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander ... right?

i'm not saying the 3.3 can't possibly be the better sub over the outlaw, if it were subjective or due to other aspects. but output wise, which is where you said the 3.3 WAS better ... no.

 

[shadyJ]

I know about Ilkka's CEA results, I just don't think you can use them to compare to other testing. I know CEA is supposed to be repeatable testing, but it only accounts for so many variables. Ilkka did not test any of those subs with CEA in mind, they are all converted results.

What we do have via Ilkka is a direct comparison between the old PB12 and a mk3 VTF3. We also have a direct comparison from data-bass.com between the LFM and a newer PB12. What we don't have is a direct comparison between a any VTF3 and LFM-1 EX, which would be reference point. I can tell you from experience they are on par, and you can take that for what it's worth. Since the newer PB12 underperforms next to the LFM, and the LFM is on par with the VTF3, I would surmise that a similar performance delta would exist between the VTF3 and the current PB12.

 

[mike c]

and i'm saying it's not worth much.

which means, LFM > 3.3

which further means, you are stretching with the '3.4 > new PB12NSD' since there are no measurements on the 3.4.
which is why i chimed in on this thread in the first place.

if experience for subs is everything ... i would say i have 10x more subs "experience" than you.

old pb12 and new pb12 included ... which I have personally experienced as well. but you don't see me representing any of my experience as more accurate than numbers ... and i would be the last person to say output is everything.

 

[raynist]

I would really consider the Power Sound Audio XV15 for about the same price as the SVS. You will get PB12 plus power at PB12-NSD price. I have 3 of them and love them. I also have several SVS subs to compare them to, see my signature.

Power Sound Audio was started by one of the original owners of SVS.




3 - Power Sound Audio XV15's
2 - SVS PB12+/2's
1 - SVS PB12+
2 - SVS SB13+'s
1 - SB12-NSD
4 - Emp Tek 1010i's

 

[shadyJ]

I suppose I just shouldn't say anything regarding my own exposure to any subwoofer unless they are backed up by third party measurements, my mistake. You are right that I do not absolutely know for sure that sub A is not going to be louder than sub B unless they were both measured by professionals who strictly adhered to the CEA2010 standard, nevermind that sub A is an 8" sub from monoprice with a 75 watt amplifier and sub B is a Rythmik FV15HP.

 

[mike c]

You know thats not what i said. But if thats what you want instead of just seeing the facts ... By all means, save us from the misinformation

 

[jamfan]

I would really consider the Power Sound Audio XV15 for about the same price as the SVS. You will get PB12 plus power at PB12-NSD price.

Got to agree with ray on this Was considering the pb12 plus, but took a shot at the XV15, little over a month ago I was figuring i'd get something similar to the pb12+ in 20hz mode (never owned or heard the pb12+), and all honest, i'm happy with the purchase!! Really astonished on how good it sounds musically!!

 

[gtpsuper24]

old pb12 and new pb12 included ... which I have personally experienced as well. but you don't see me representing any of my experience as more accurate than numbers ... and i would be the last person to say output is everything.

Numbers are just as unreliable as user experience IMO.

Numbers can be fudged to show what someone wants it too show, numbers only tells you a very small part of the overall picture of things (granted subwoofers seems to be alittle more cut and dry than speakers). And misinterpeted.

The SVS PB12NSD measures great, but yet its doesn't dominate the market in its price class. The HSU, Epik, Emotiva, Outlaw, PSA, Paradigm, Aperion, list goes on sells just as many maybe more and they may or may not measure as good as the SVS. The bench spec racers on the forums represent a very small fraction of the audio community. Most don't give a damn about a little line on the computer monitor. Most want to know what it SOUNDS like not how it measures.

In the end the person just needs to decide for themselves by listening to the product whether they like it or not and whether they find value in it. After that measurements don't mean nothing.

 

[mike c]

Numbers are just as unreliable as user experience IMO.

Numbers can be fudged to show what someone wants it too show, numbers only tells you a very small part of the overall picture of things (granted subwoofers seems to be alittle more cut and dry than speakers). And misinterpeted.

The SVS PB12NSD measures great, but yet its doesn't dominate the market in its price class. The HSU, Epik, Emotiva, Outlaw, PSA, Paradigm, Aperion, list goes on sells just as many maybe more and they may or may not measure as good as the SVS. The bench spec racers on the forums represent a very small fraction of the audio community. Most don't give a damn about a little line on the computer monitor. Most want to know what it SOUNDS like not how it measures.

In the end the person just needs to decide for themselves by listening to the product whether they like it or not and whether they find value in it. After that measurements don't mean nothing.

never said it was the end all and be all. like what you quoted above "i'd be the last person to say output is everything"

there are at least two ways to accurately decide if a subwoofer is better* than another:

1) measured numbers of both
2) listen to both in the same/similar room

shadyj doesn't have 1 or 2

*better, not simply louder

-0--0-

while i do have my theories either way ... i don't want to get into who sells more of what because i don't really have the sales reports of these companies.