How much does the damping factor matter?

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Is there any consensus on what is audible? What would you consider a good damping factor value?
It seems only a few companies list it in their specs.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
An important and often misunderstood specification..

A good value is >100, basically means that the loudspeaker driver is under tighter control for movement. And in a full range loudspeaker system assures the titer lower bass response. Personally I prefer a sealed box and an amplifier with a high damping factor, that makes the bass very tite. However this requires that the driving power amplifier has adequate headroom and power output capability..

Check out the quality brand component power amplifiers, the majority of these have a high damping factor. But often this specification is never disclosed for an AVR...

Just my $0.015... ;)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I read quite a bit about this from way back. As far as I know there seem to be two schools of thought. One, such as Crown Audio, thinks it is very important.

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/136224.pdf

Another, that may be sort of a sober thought:

http://www.monstercable.com/mpc/stable/tech/A2412_Damping_Factor_Article.pdf

There are many more that down play the importance of that number if you google the topic you will find them. Most would agree that >100 (the real world number will be much lower) should be good enough and that high numbers are achivable by applying lots of negative feedbacks (good/bad?, that would be another topic).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I read quite a bit about this from way back. As far as I know there seem to be two schools of thought. One, such as Crown Audio, thinks it is very important.

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/136224.pdf

Another, that may be sort of a sober thought:

http://www.monstercable.com/mpc/stable/tech/A2412_Damping_Factor_Article.pdf

There are many more that down play the importance of that number if you google the topic you will find them. Most would agree that >100 (the real world number will be much lower) should be good enough and that high numbers are achivable by applying lots of negative feedbacks (good/bad?, that's anothe topic).
The problem is that unless you are using active speakers or a full ranger this specification is irrelevant.

Peter Walker pointed out years ago, that the inductor/inductors in series with the bass driver in the crossover completely negates any possibility of the amplifier controlling or damping the driver. In fact the speaker wire has to be short and of very low resistance to optimize amplifier damping. This is yet another argument in favor of active speakers, with the amps and electronic crossovers in the speakers.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The problem is that unless you are using active speakers or a full ranger this specification is irrelevant.

Peter Walker pointed out years ago, that the inductor/inductors in series with the bass driver in the crossover completely negates any possibility of the amplifier controlling or damping the driver. In fact the speaker wire has to be short and of very low resistance to optimize amplifier damping. This is yet another argument in favor of active speakers, with the amps and electronic crossovers in the speakers.
I agree, on the passive side though, I do miss those Acoustic suspension speakers such as those made by AR, ADS and even Braun in the old days. With watts being so cheap nowadays I wonder why acoustic suspension designs are not more popular.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Is there any consensus on what is audible? What would you consider a good damping factor value?
It seems only a few companies list it in their specs.
Have a look at the 8th post down here by Richard Pierce;):D
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_thread/thread/532c473edc8a4991/1a35b2da043f01d5?hl=en&q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+and+damping+factor

Or his other discussions on this page of links:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+and+damping+factor&hl=en&lr=&selm=2rvv75$tji@introl.introl.com&rnum=1
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I agree, on the passive side though, I do miss those Acoustic suspension speakers such as those made by AR, ADS and even Braun in the old days. With watts being so cheap nowadays I wonder why acoustic suspension designs are not more popular.
More output from a vented design, usually. A lot of acoustic suspension speakers need a lot more power to achieve "usable" SPL. Even some vented designs are only good for 86dB/W and by way of conditioning, many people believe that more is always better. It's probably just the marketing department winning the tug of war. Not that some good vented speakers haven't come from this but since I don't need a PA system and I don't listen to Rap or Hip-Hop, I really like the sound of a sealed box and that's a bit ironic because my main speakers and sub aren't sealed. I plan to do some experimenting this winter, though.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I agree, on the passive side though, I do miss those Acoustic suspension speakers such as those made by AR, ADS and even Braun in the old days. With watts being so cheap nowadays I wonder why acoustic suspension designs are not more popular.
I think it is a cost equation. A good driver for sealed use will be much more expensive to manufacture. It has to have a long throw linear motor system and a high compliance suspension. The next issue is that for a given bass response the cone needs to be heavier, to get Fs down. That means the crossover point will need to be lower quite often, which gets you into the bother expense and difficulty of three ways, or an expensive tweeter with a low Fs.

The next issue is that sensitivity will generally be lower than for a ported design. Also roll off in a sealed design usually begins close to an octave above Fs, although on the plus side roll off is second order.

However all things being equal in a properly thought out system bass will be more realistic than in most ported designs.

Having said that a sealed system is still resonant and there is often ripple before bass roll off and the bass is still not as natural as a well executed aperiodically damped TL can produce.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
But, is an amp like a Rotel amp (RB-1090) with a high damping factor (1,000),
more advantageous than one with a lower damping factor (say about 50)?

* I mean, generally speaking. Can you notice a difference on the sound (in general) from a better grip on the speaker's drivers (assuming good quality speakers with quality drivers and x-overs)? Will they stop and start quicker, with better control and tighteness?
* Will they incidently sound better, from a ditto amp with HDF?

P.S. HDF, meaning High Damping Factor. :)
No, they won't sound any different based on damping factor. The voice coil resistance id high enough to negate most of it, and the inductors in the crossover completely void any advantage what so ever. It is a useless spec. period.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
No, they won't sound any different based on damping factor. The voice coil resistance id high enough to negate most of it, and the inductors in the crossover completely void any advantage what so ever. It is a useless spec. period.
Dont fully agree..
To maxmize the sonic performance of the entire system chain (amplifiers and loudspeakers) each component should be optimized so that its contribution and end-effect is minimized when all are connected together. From the amplifier prospective this should be designed with a minimum damping factor specification, and as stated previously >100 is a reasonable value...

However..
I do agree there are other factors that interplay together such as speaker cable (resistance), system Q and internal x-over components which can/will determine the final damping factor number.
In the end, one is after the best transient response of the system so he must be certain that each component is best matched accordingly..

Side note..
I don't recall the brand but one of the primary Japanese brands actually marketed a component power amplifier, that had adjustable series resistance so that the damping factor could be adjusted...
Audibly one would hear more bass overhang, kinda like the Seeburg jukebox sound.. :confused:

Just my $0.015... ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...However..
I do agree there are other factors that interplay together such as speaker cable (resistance), system Q and internal x-over components which can/will determine the final damping factor number.
In the end, one is after the best transient response of the system so he must be certain that each component is best matched accordingly..

...
Just my $0.015... ;)
But, as you indicated with the cable resistance what it is, compare that to the amp's output impedance, insignificant, really.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you TLS Guy for this revealing fact. I'm still learning, and I appreciate your teachings. :)

Good night sir,
Bob
Bob, just in case you may have missed his point as he did not show the formula. For damping factor calculation purposes, the d.c. resistance of the voice coil (in fact even the resistance of the speaker wires) must be considered as part of the output impedance of the amp so no matter how low the output impedance the amp is, the "effective" damping factor cannot be anywhere near the theorectical damping factor of 1000 that Rotel may specify. Put it in another way, Rotel has no control over what kind of speaker you are going to use. So if your speaker has a d.c. resistance of even just 1 ohm, the damping factor will effectively (hence call effective damping factor) be brought down to a much lower level. The difference in effective damping factor between amps with damping factors of 1000 and 200 is not that much for reasons TLS Guys cited.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
All us "audio enthusiasts and their rabid cousins, the audiophiles" thank KEW, TLS Guy, highfigh, PENG, mtrycrafts, and the others for this good thread.

It seems that concern over damping factor is another holdover from the days when all amps had vacuum tubes and low damping factors.

A woofer's damping, or suspension compliance, as well as the mechanical compliance from its cabinet design probably has as great or greater effect on achieving adequate damping, or "tight bass" than the amplifiers electrical damping factor. TLS Guy, could you comment on which has a greater effect?

Just the same, after reading all this, I admit I looked up my amp's damping factor in the manual :eek:, just to be sure. I'm glad to say that it is 450 :cool:.

I guess the final word on damping factor is that in most if not all solid state amps, it is high enough not to matter ;).
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A lot of the questions about damping factor, slew rate, "How many Watts does this receiver have?", "How many Amps does it put out?" and that kind of thing came from people who read audio magazines in the '70s, but they didn't know what they were reading and these questions are what we heard on a daily basis, verbatim. The receiver specifications race in the late '70s was a direct result and dealing with these questions was incredibly annoying, but it was also a good opportunity to educate people and to get them to make their decisions based on sound quality, not specs. I still see some of my old customers and some still have & use the equipment they bought 30 years ago. One kid didn't seem to have learned, because he ended up working at a high end shop that sells AudioQuest cables with batteries. Another kid ended up working at a few different shops and is much more realistic about what makes a difference, and why.
 
basspig

basspig

Full Audioholic
Damping factor is such a debated and oft-misunderstood specification.

Essentially, it is the source impedance of the amplifier, divided into the load impedance of the speaker. It has nothing to do with feedback in the amplifer. It has to do totally with the source impedance of the output stage (how much current the output transistors can sink) and the source impedance of the power supply (how much capacitance and how well-regulated it is--sometimes referred to as "stiffness"). Typically, amplifiers with huge supplies and a lot of capacitor reservoir storage and numerous output devices in parallel will have high damping factors. My old Phase-Linear D-500 had 32 output devices and boasted a damping factor over 1,000. My current QSC Powerlight amplifiers claim in excess of 4,000 for the damping factor.

Damping affects the degree of control over the 'motor' of the speaker--the voice coil/cone assembly in conjunction with the magnet. When the cone is coasting, it becomes an electrical generator, producing back-EMF (electromotive force) that is being sunk back into the amplifier. A high damping factor resists this back-EMF and provides more braking action on the cone. It follows the input electrical signal a bit more accurately this way.

The effect of various levels of damping will be more or less noticed depending on the type of speaker system in use. Sealed baffles will see the least change, as will horn-loaded systems, since most of their damping is mechanical. But open back (no longer seen in today's mainstream) and vented systems will be more dependant on damping in the electrical domain, because they have mechanical damping that varies with frequency, especially around the vent tuning frequency.

Electrical damping can only be somewhat maintained in biamped systems, where the woofer is directly connected to the amplifier, with no components in between, including inductors, fuses or circuit breakers. The use of heavy (I recommend 8awg) cable helps to maintain the low source impedance of a super-class amplifier, at the speaker terminals.

The effects of damping on sound: Low damping, due to insertion loss (inadequate wire gauge, resistors, inductors) results in a fatter, 'tubby' bass with less definition. By eliminating the IR losses in the wiring, a more accurate, less resonant bass is the result, but many will also perceive this as a loss of bass. Indeed, by eliminating the overshoot, the bass energy at SOME frequencies will be reduced, but to the gain of quality and smoother response. I experienced this phenomena when I replaced my 14awg home brew cables (which were heating up during loud playback) with 8awg cable. The bass seemed less powerful after that upgrade, but I eventually realized that the system response was also smoother and bass notes no longer 'ring' after the note is stopped. So if you're expecting louder bass with heavier cables or more damping, don't. But if you're after better impulse response, then DO upgrade the amperage capacity of your cables and use high damping amplifiers.

Bob Carver made the "t" (Transfer Function) modification to some of his solid state amplifiers and last year at CarverFest, he revealed what 80% of the transfer function mod (to make it sound like a tube amp) was: insertion of 1.6-ohms of resistance in the output of the amp channels. By inserting resistance between woofer and amp, you'll simulate much of the 'warm' sound of tube amps.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
All us "audio enthusiasts and their rabid cousins, the audiophiles" thank KEW, TLS Guy, highfigh, PENG, mtrycrafts, and the others for this good thread.

It seems that concern over damping factor is another holdover from the days when all amps had vacuum tubes and low damping factors.

A woofer's damping, or suspension compliance, as well as the mechanical compliance from its cabinet design probably has as great or greater effect on achieving adequate damping, or "tight bass" than the amplifiers electrical damping factor. TLS Guy, could you comment on which has a greater effect?

Just the same, after reading all this, I admit I looked up my amp's damping factor in the manual :eek:, just to be sure. I'm glad to say that it is 450 :cool:.

I guess the final word on damping factor is that in most if not all solid state amps, it is high enough not to matter ;).
Richard Pierce has a very thorough explanation to your question in my first link, post 8.
Tried to post his Damping Factor analysis but way too long.

Some call into question of overhang, yet by his analysis, it is really not that much difference from a DF of 1 to DF2000, twice.:rolleyes: At low frequencies, where hearing is worse, much worse, than in its mid-bands, it is unimportant.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Damping factor is such a debated and oft-misunderstood specification.

Essentially, it is the source impedance of the amplifier, divided into the load impedance of the speaker. It has nothing to do with feedback in the amplifer. It has to do totally with the source impedance of the output stage (how much current the output transistors can sink) and the source impedance of the power supply (how much capacitance and how well-regulated it is--sometimes referred to as "stiffness"). Typically, amplifiers with huge supplies and a lot of capacitor reservoir storage and numerous output devices in parallel will have high damping factors. My old Phase-Linear D-500 had 32 output devices and boasted a damping factor over 1,000. My current QSC Powerlight amplifiers claim in excess of 4,000 for the damping factor.

Damping affects the degree of control over the 'motor' of the speaker--the voice coil/cone assembly in conjunction with the magnet. When the cone is coasting, it becomes an electrical generator, producing back-EMF (electromotive force) that is being sunk back into the amplifier. A high damping factor resists this back-EMF and provides more braking action on the cone. It follows the input electrical signal a bit more accurately this way.

The effect of various levels of damping will be more or less noticed depending on the type of speaker system in use. Sealed baffles will see the least change, as will horn-loaded systems, since most of their damping is mechanical. But open back (no longer seen in today's mainstream) and vented systems will be more dependant on damping in the electrical domain, because they have mechanical damping that varies with frequency, especially around the vent tuning frequency.

Electrical damping can only be somewhat maintained in biamped systems, where the woofer is directly connected to the amplifier, with no components in between, including inductors, fuses or circuit breakers. The use of heavy (I recommend 8awg) cable helps to maintain the low source impedance of a super-class amplifier, at the speaker terminals.

The effects of damping on sound: Low damping, due to insertion loss (inadequate wire gauge, resistors, inductors) results in a fatter, 'tubby' bass with less definition. By eliminating the IR losses in the wiring, a more accurate, less resonant bass is the result, but many will also perceive this as a loss of bass. Indeed, by eliminating the overshoot, the bass energy at SOME frequencies will be reduced, but to the gain of quality and smoother response. I experienced this phenomena when I replaced my 14awg home brew cables (which were heating up during loud playback) with 8awg cable. The bass seemed less powerful after that upgrade, but I eventually realized that the system response was also smoother and bass notes no longer 'ring' after the note is stopped. So if you're expecting louder bass with heavier cables or more damping, don't. But if you're after better impulse response, then DO upgrade the amperage capacity of your cables and use high damping amplifiers.

Bob Carver made the "t" (Transfer Function) modification to some of his solid state amplifiers and last year at CarverFest, he revealed what 80% of the transfer function mod (to make it sound like a tube amp) was: insertion of 1.6-ohms of resistance in the output of the amp channels. By inserting resistance between woofer and amp, you'll simulate much of the 'warm' sound of tube amps.
I really think you should read Richard Pierce;s article on this issue.
The overhang you make so much about is really not that much of an issue compared to everything else. Check out post 8 where his analysis is and the delay numbers:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_thread/thread/532c473edc8a4991/1a35b2da043f01d5?hl=en&q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+and+damping+factor
 
basspig

basspig

Full Audioholic
I read that article many years ago, and I don't see, essentially, where it differs from what I stated. What he doesn't place as much emphasis on is impulse response. I think that's the single most apparent aspect of various levels of damping.

Another thing I would call in question is whether the DC resistance of the coil should be treated as part of the external resistance in the transmission line. Since it is directly part of the motor characteristics, the relationship to Qes is more complicated than simply treating it as an external resistance.

My own experience with switching to heavier gauge wire yielded surprisingly different results than I had expected. I noticed LESS bass, not more, after the cables were increased in size. But what else I noted was that the slight ringing was gone and percussive bass had more definition. Of course in my case, the smaller cable was thermally heating and would get warm to the touch, much like a line cord on a space heater, during high volume playback. Due to the multiple parallel drivers and use of large industrial drivers with unusually low DCR, these effects are more pronounced, which is why I observed them.

Bob Carver, a brilliant amplifier designer who brought us the Phase-Linear 700 as his first design right out of high school, has demonstrated that tube transfer function modification to his M1.5t and other amplifiers. The main component of the transfer modification was the addition of resistance in the output of the amplifier. Lowering the damping factor produced audibly-different sound. It's a sound I equate with the old console radios of the 1930s/40s, a resonant and warm bass that's slightly boomy. Personally, I don't care for it as a system baseline quality. I don't mind it as a defeatable plugin to the preamp chain, but I would not want to have that sound all the time.

I agree that once you get much past 20 damping factor, the further returns are too diminished to really matter much. That said, my QSCs have over 4,000 DF rating, and I'm not complaining!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Another thing I would call in question is whether the DC resistance of the coil should be treated as part of the external resistance in the transmission line. Since it is directly part of the motor characteristics, the relationship to Qes is more complicated than simply treating it as an external resistance.
Any coil has resistance, it is only a question of how low/or high it is. If you measure it with an ohmmeter and it reads 1 ohm, then it is 1 ohm and this 1 ohm resistance has nothing to do with motor characteristics. if you pass an a.c. through this resistance it will not decrease. I agree with those who said it should be consider external, but we can always agree to disagree.:)
 

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