How loud do you listen?

[PENG]

A few of my friends so agree with you. They were appalled when I bought the Velodyne, and think my use of its high-pass filter is a travesty of such proportions I should have my Salon 2s confiscated by Voecks himself, lose my userid on Audiogon forever, and be forced to listen to a Bose system.

I do run the feeds to midrange-tweeter sections full range; I only filter the feeds to the woofers. I tried running the Salon 2s in single wire mode from the Velodyne high-pass output, and I thought I could easily hear a degradation, much to my surprise.

A few things are very obvious to me:

1. The system sounds better on everything with the DD18 Plus operating.

2. Running the Salon 2 woofers with the 80Hz high-pass feed sounds better than running the Salon 2 woofers full-range. I've tried full-range operation several times now and it makes the low end too bloated. Ugh.

So I'm stuck. Addicted to a sub, but need a high-pass filter.

Thank you for the clarification. You said active biamp in your post so I thought that's what you did.. Now I know you are just using the high pass output from your sub to the S2's woofers. I still wouldn't mess with them like that but if it sounds better to you, then I assume may be somehow you found a sweet spot overall for your setup.

 

[GranteedEV]

Thank you for the clarification. You said active biamp in your post so I thought that's what you did.. Now I know you are just using the high pass output from your sub to the S2's woofers. I still wouldn't mess with them like that but if it sounds better to you, then I assume may be somehow you found a sweet spot overall for your setup.

I kind of think Irv needs a true crossover and measurement gear to set up his sub. And two more subs. Maybe a DEQX to start with.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I kind of think Irv needs a true crossover and measurement gear to set up his sub. And two more subs. Maybe a DEQX to start with.

Funny you should mention the measurement gear. I just ordered the Dayton Audio kit from Parts Express to see what's really going on.

I don't really have room for even one more DD18 Plus. But I admit to thinking about a pair of SVS SB-13 Pluses, which would fit behind the Salon 2s. Hanging around here is getting me braver about SVS, and break my must-hear-first rule. Just thinking, not acting yet. I want to see what the Dayton Audio software says.

Of course, the system sounds awesome as-is, so I think I'm mostly getting the DA to marvel at how wonderful things are and see some interesting graphs.

My wife is going to do some studio work one of these days, so maybe I can get a high-res recording of her on her rock drum kit. That'll give the system with the new ATI amp something to chew on.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Thank you for the clarification. You said active biamp in your post so I thought that's what you did.. Now I know you are just using the high pass output from your sub to the S2's woofers. I still wouldn't mess with them like that but if it sounds better to you, then I assume may be somehow you found a sweet spot overall for your setup.

Yeah, it's not really true active bi-amp, but it's not really passive anymore either, as the signals going to the two sections of each speaker are different. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[GranteedEV]

Funny you should mention the measurement gear. I just ordered the Dayton Audio kit from Parts Express to see what's really going on.

That's good. You really get a sense of which modes are being excited, because when you move speakers and re-measure, you see the same peaks and dips shift in frequency and amplitude. It really helps you dial in placement because you keep moving it until response is as free of major dips as you can get it. Then just take an EQ to notch down major peaks (as well as fix phase response in the process).

This baby is just waiting for you to pick it up

DEQX

But I admit to thinking about a pair of SVS SB-13 Pluses, which would fit behind the Salon 2s

Good choice. Don't take the velodyne out of the equation though. You can mix subs thanks to the SVS' limiting algorythms.

 

[Irvrobinson]

This baby is just waiting for you to pick it up

DEQX Products

The HDP-3 with the Reference Calibration Kit looks more like the ticket. Sell the Benchmark HDR I just bought. Hmmm...

Maybe. $5K for the whole kit. I gotta think about this for a while.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I forgot the Balanced Output Module. $5500 total. Hmmm...

 

[GranteedEV]

The HDP-3 with the Reference Calibration Kit looks more like the ticket.

That's so expensive though.

I'd have to know what actual benefits it has over the Express before paying double. I'd imagine they're more useful for someone actually designing speakers from scratch than for someone just using it for integrating subwoofers. From all that i've read i can't remember any significant advantages of the 3 over the express but I don't remember what the differences are either.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That's so expensive though.

I'd have to know what actual benefits it has over the Express before paying double. I'd imagine they're more useful for someone actually designing speakers from scratch than for someone just using it for integrating subwoofers. From all that i've read i can't remember any significant advantages of the 3 over the express but I don't remember what the differences are either.

The main benefit is that it's a super-quality pre-amp too and a DAC. Everything I need all in one. Tempting. Thanks for the pointer. I didn't know DEQX existed.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Well, I thought about this, and I wish I knew about the HDP-3 before I bought the Benchmark! The main problem is that the system sounds so good as-is I can't get myself in the mood to trade out the Benchmark and invest $5500. I'm not ATDG, ya know. Especially with that ATI amp arriving tomorrow. But the HDP-3 is such an awesome toy! So I'll get to know the Dayton Audio kit and see what's cooking.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That's good. You really get a sense of which modes are being excited, because when you move speakers and re-measure, you see the same peaks and dips shift in frequency and amplitude. It really helps you dial in placement because you keep moving it until response is as free of major dips as you can get it. Then just take an EQ to notch down major peaks (as well as fix phase response in the process).

I've experimented with the DA kit a few times now, and what a difference versus using the Velodyne software to tune sub EQ and balance! The sub is now positioned 1" to the left of where I had it originally, which made an amazing difference at about 55Hz. A 3db boost at 30Hz and a broad 40-60Hz cut of about 3db smoothed things very nicely at my listening position.

That was money well-spent.

The frequency sweeps also show a pretty consistent dip in the 1.5KHz range that could be equalized out with the DEQX equipment. There's also a little rough spot in the 250-400Hz range that could probably be fixed too. But is it worth even $2K to fix it? Not yet. I need to get a feel for what I have for a while.

The Salon 2 / DD18+ combination is apparently very good in-room at my listening position. Using 1/12th octave smoothing on sine sweeps I'm seeing +/- 5db from 20-18KHz. Isn't that pretty good for in-room?

 

[GranteedEV]

The Salon 2 / DD18+ combination is apparently very good in-room at my listening position. Using 1/12th octave smoothing on sine sweeps I'm seeing +/- 5db from 20-18KHz. Isn't that pretty good for in-room?

Yeah. Are you still fusing the low cut on the salons? You'll probably be able to improve things even further now that you can measure it, but running the salons full range and then equalizing the global response from any of those peaks you were hearing earlier.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah. Are you still fusing the low cut on the salons? You'll probably be able to improve things even further now that you can measure it, but running the salons full range and then equalizing the global response from any of those peaks you were hearing earlier.

I measured a couple of things. First, I measured the Salon 2s without the sub in the signal path at all. Just as I suspected, the entire bass range below 80Hz was very rough, with a spike at about 65Hz, a moderate suck-out centered at about 45Hz, and a bump from just under 40Hz to just over 20Hz. No wonder I was never satisfied with the Salon 2 bass! But those speakers aren't moving, because they are in the perfect position for imaging in my seating position. And as I've mentioned before the imaging quality I'm achieving is extraordinary.

Of course all of that explains why a micro-positioned sub with a 60Hz low-pass filter at 18db/octave and an 80Hz high-pass filter at 6db/octave cleans everything up so well. For music the DD18+ probably isn't adding much in the way of bass extension or quality I'd get over a bass-position-optimization of the Salon 2s, but it allows me to move the bass source around for best position without affecting imaging. Of course, the DD18+ also gives me a very powerful (and expensive) bass level control, which is useful for when accuracy is less important than excitement (e.g. rock & roll).

My next set of measurements was with the DD18+ in the signal path with a 50Hz low-pass filter, and the Salon 2s running full range from a pair of AT3005 channels. (No bi-amping.) The DA measurements revealed a fat bumpy bass below about 100Hz, with a very impressive +11db maximum centered at about 50Hz, with a weird suck-out centered at about 30Hz. No wonder I thought this configuration sounded overblown and muddy. Due to a medical issue I'm not in a position to move that 140lb sub around at this time to optimize things.

So, because of my stubbornness against moving the Salon 2s I think I'm doing pretty well with that +/- 5db measurement in-room measurement and incredible imaging. I suppose the drawback is that I've spent a small fortune to achieve it, namely a DD18+, two extra AT3000 channels, and now the Dayton Audio kit. Was it worth it? No one buys all of this stuff unless you have more money than sense. I don't have much sense, but the system sounds pretty nice.

 

[Alex2507]

I actually took the meter with me to the last live classical concert. It was dark but I didn't see any peak over 90's from where I sat. It was a rather small orchestra though.

Having just gotten back from a talk on mic techniques for recording organ music and hearing various folks talk about the SPL achieved by a large orchestra and chorus I think much louder than 90 db can be reached at a live performance.

Below 80 Hz sensitivity is 93 db, which is very high for the last octave.

I just want to know why that is the last octave as opposed to like the 2nd or 3rd.

You are listening at *much* louder levels than I do. Amazing that your speakers can pull that off.

Walter is working on reproducing the sound in the 15th row at a live rock concert.
Anything below 110db is no longer a hi-fi but merely mid-fi.

For music the DD18+ probably isn't adding much in the way of bass extension or quality I'd get over a bass-position-optimization of the Salon 2s, but it allows me to move the bass source around for best position without affecting imaging.

If you listened at higher SPL's the DD18+ would be a much needed assist in taking a load off the Revels (based on what I learned today regarding live concert SPL's and how that relates to high fidelity). These guys were saying that reproducing the music at lower SPL's masked a speaker's (not your speakers specifically) inability to reproduce music without non linear distortion at the concert level SPL's.

IIRC the pipe organ I heard today would hit 16 Hz at 96 db presumably all over this church. It's all interesting stuff and an interesting thread. BTW, congrats on some first rate gear.

I'm curious how your test gear deals with room modes and comb filtering but am a little too lazy to do all the required reading. Is there a short answer?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm curious how your test gear deals with room modes and comb filtering but am a little too lazy to do all the required reading. Is there a short answer?

It doesn't deal with it, it just measures whatever the microphone detects. I position the mic in the position my head is during listening, so it gets approximately the same combination of direct and reflected sounds I do. Room modes are the primary reason to measure at all, to figure out how to position the speakers or myself to find the best compromise of effects.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Having just gotten back from a talk on mic techniques for recording organ music and hearing various folks talk about the SPL achieved by a large orchestra and chorus I think much louder than 90 db can be reached at a live performance.

I agree, and it depends on the hall, where you're sitting, and, of course, the orchestra. In the seats we generally get in our local venue I'm often surprised at how loud the orchestra *isn't*.

 

[Alex2507]

My subjective perception of loud for speakers is closely tied to distortion so when a good speaker gets played loud the absence of distortion tricks me into thinking that it's not that loud. What reveals the volume to me is how loud I have to yell to be heard over the music.

With an orchestra I believe the lack of distortion would leave me thinking the SPL to be less than it really is. Next time I go to something like that I'll bring my SPL meter.

 

[PENG]

My subjective perception of loud for speakers is closely tied to distortion so when a good speaker gets played loud the absence of distortion tricks me into thinking that it's not that loud. What reveals the volume to me is how loud I have to yell to be heard over the music.

With an orchestra I believe the lack of distortion would leave me thinking the SPL to be less than it really is. Next time I go to something like that I'll bring my SPL meter.

I have similar subjective perception but I would add that much of my source of distortions is from the source disc itself. At lower SPL, such distortions are often not as obvious with amplified music such as rocks and to some extent, jazz. With classical music that is heavy on strings and woodwinds (violins & flutes seem worst) poor recordings would become intolerable to me even at moderately loud SPL.

No doubt the rest of the system especially loudspeakers, do become intolerable at high SPL and at the onset would be perceived as being "loud". I just want to make the point that we should be careful not (I know you are not saying that at all) blame it on our "hi-fi" components too soon because the source media often may be the weakest link. In my system, distortions from poor recordings could become objectionable and perceived as being too loud at as low as <70 to 80 dB depending on how bad it is. As to distortions from my system components, I have not tested its limit yet as I don't want to risk damaging any one them. I am not worry about damaging my hearing because I can simply wear hearing protection.

 

[avnetguy]

I have similar subjective perception but I would add that much of my source of distortions is from the source disc itself. At lower SPL, such distortions are often not as obvious with amplified music such as rocks and to some extent, jazz. With classical music that is heavy on strings and woodwinds (violins & flutes seem worst) poor recordings would become intolerable to me even at moderately loud SPL.

No doubt the rest of the system especially loudspeakers, do become intolerable at high SPL and at the onset would be perceived as being "loud". I just want to make the point that we should be careful not (I know you are not saying that at all) blame it on our "hi-fi" components too soon because the source media often may be the weakest link. In my system, distortions from poor recordings could become objectionable and perceived as being too loud at as low as <70 to 80 dB depending on how bad it is. As to distortions from my system components, I have not tested its limit yet as I don't want to risk damaging any one them. I am not worry about damaging my hearing because I can simply wear hearing protection.

I've found the source material is to blame all to often, just last night I ran into this issue when I trying a few new classical CDs. The first CD, a compilation disc, had what I consider an average/reasonable quality recording and was enjoyable at low-mid SPL listening levels. The second CD, which was strickly Tchaikovsky, was absolute garbage and I could not stand listening to it. It had a very high noise floor and instruments sounded off, almost like they were compressed. Makes me wonder if some of these CDs are recorded from badly produced vinyl.

It is surprising how high you can push the SPLs with an excellent recording, sometimes not realizing you're 5 to 10db above normal.

Steve